Dragon Wukong wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:02 pm
Miracles wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:54 pm
Anyone can say with confidence that Vegeta is stronger than Goku unequivocally.
But we have at least 3 or 4 dudes in here pointing out that you can't. Even the ones that agree with you.
Miracles wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:54 pm
Since it is
outright stated that Goku needs to surpass Vegeta.
Which I've shown is up to interpretation.
Miracles wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:54 pm
There is no room for interpretation or contradiction, since the dialogue leaves none.
Except it leaves plenty of room for that, you're being obstinate to deny it. Even the beginning of the chapter has the audience discredit Vegeta's power against Moro in a way that the previous chapter didn't with Goku.
Miracles wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:54 pm
Even the images you claim support your case, like Gohan applauding Goku for pushing Moro back, or Merus and Whis convo about UI omen, in no way describes those attacks greater than Vegeta's.
If dialogue praising Goku's strength against Moro doesn't support the idea he's stronger when the audience immediately afterward is calling out Vegeta's hits have done nothing to Moro, then frankly I find it ridiculous you don't allow "surpass" to be interpreted in other ways.
Nothing in Chapter 61 makes a direct comparison between Goku and Vegeta in terms of explicitly strength alone. I don't know how many times I need to make that clear to you. You can argue the narrative is trying to do that via the "finest meal" thing (even though Moro's failed to eat Goku since his training,) the "yeah Vegeta's gotten strong," thing, and the "I'll surpass him" bit. But it's
still possible to interpret that in other ways because no one is saying explicitly that Vegeta is stronger than Goku.
Miracles wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:54 pm
You are simply using your own subjective narrative feelings as a parallel with their attacks.
And this is where you become someone very frustrating to debate this with. You continue to dismiss narrative pieces that contradict your position as simply me "using [my] own subjective narrative feelings as a parallel with their attacks." Stop with this argument when you have nothing else to say in the face of narrative ambiguity. It's complete bullshit and you know it. Come on man.
Miracles wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:54 pm
Yet the story makes none around those depictions. The only time Goku and Vegeta are compared is until Goku says he needs to surpass Vegeta. Meaning that Goku is the lesser.
For christs sake. There's plenty of room for interpretation when the god damned dialogue gives us pieces like this.
Gohan praising Goku's ability to push back a full power Moro in their clash.
Said prior discussion where they discuss if Goku can keep using his full power against Moro as he struggles to hold him down.
And you have Gohan and 18 completely dismissing Vegeta's blows against Moro as having absolutely
no effect whatsoever.
Keep in mind I'm just using the parts where the dialogue itself supports me. There's still
two whole chapters of Moro struggling against Goku. Never mind the fact that Goku also had Moro
bleeding after their constant struggle by the time he had begun failing to make use of Ultra Instinct Sign properly. You really wanna say that Vegeta is just outright stronger than Goku using Sign? That Goku doesn't feel the need to maintain the form properly to surpass him? That the view isn't even up to interpretation after all that?
If you're gonna dismiss
all that, then I find it honestly ridiculous that you'd suggest
I'm the one with some kind of bias in this conversation. I implore you to consider you being obstinate on the idea that the past two chapters would even make this an ambiguous point. You sound arrogant when you say "no, anyone who thinks
I'm wrong must
absolutely be
biased against Vegeta, and trying to insert how they
feel it should be." It's a load of absolute bull in this argument, and you ought to know better than that.
Don't even respond if you're going to continue with that "only the narrative bits that make me look right count" crap. You keep saying it, and it's honestly really damn rude when I've gone to the lengths that I have to back up my arguments with actual dialogue, even if
you personally don't feel as though it's enough to discredit your argument, for whatever reason. You should at least acknowledge that it's been enough for other people in this thread, otherwise you just sound like a dismissive jerk who wants to be right.