Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Xeno Goku Black]

And why is he stronger? Moro says he added 7-3's power to his own power that was stored inside it. And taking into account Moro has access to everything 7-3 ever copied, he might be: FP Moro + 7-3 + Piccolo + Gohan + etc.

It's possible I suppose seeing as he has Piccolo's regeneration.

[FishermanJohnWest]

So Moro's current strength is just Moro + Seven Three? That's what the first page seems to suggest. Seven Three did really seem all that powerful normally for Moro to receive such a significant boost.

He's pretty OP though. Regeneration, Fusion doesn't work against him, no Time Limit, has Vegeta's abilities etc.

Still nothing to suggest he's on Jiren or Broly's level though.

He is beyond Jiren based on feats and power scaling

Broly however is unknown until he surpasses Beerus

[FishermanJohnWest]

Vegeta ability just stops fusion from happening, doesn't mean Moro was > any form of Gogeta or Vegito

[FishermanJohnWest]

> Spirit fission only works when damage is dealt
> Potara/Dance is useless

Moro73 > current Gogeta/Vegetto?

The implication very much seems to be that Gogeta/Vegito (or some other fusion involving Goku) would be enough to defeat Moro with pure strength, but now that he has Vegeta's Spirit Fission technique Moro could just undo whatever fusion.

Adding to this, can we assume it's teasing the idea that fusion > ultra instinct?

Fusion was always > UI, fact that Goku relies on UI first rather then fusion shows that fusion is always their last option

[Xeno Goku Black]

He is beyond Jiren based on feats and power scaling

Broly however is unknown until he surpasses Beerus

He's done nothing that Jiren couldn't have done. Jiren tangled with and outlasted Ultra Instinct Goku which is more impressive than anything Moro has done.

[FishermanJohnWest]

He is beyond Jiren based on feats and power scaling

Broly however is unknown until he surpasses Beerus

He's done nothing that Jiren couldn't have done. Jiren tangled with and outlasted Ultra Instinct Goku which is more impressive than anything Moro has done.

Moro fought a far stronger UI which is post TOP, Post Broly, Post 6 months training.

Omen while holding back was more impressive then MUI from the TOP based on the feats of how fast Goku was in comparison to MUI from the TOP.







And Moro ends up blitzing and low diff that same Goku

[Dragon Wukong]

Fusion was always > UI, fact that Goku relies on UI first rather then fusion shows that fusion is always their last option

While I've always assumed it to be the case, the story has never been explicit about that being true. Jiren/Beerus/Broly/Gogeta/UIku have all been on distinctly vague tiers relative to one another. It's been a point of contention in various debates.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Moro fought a far stronger UI which is post TOP, Post Broly, Post 6 months training.

Yeah but thats nothing impressive when Jiren outdid the real thing. Moro beat a stronger version of an incomplete Ultra Instinct Goku. Jiren outlasted the real thing.

[Nevaeh]

In that very same fight against Jiren, a banged up base Vegeta was fast enough to see, react and dodge an attack intended for MUI Goku..

Potara/fusion being useless against Moro is the first hint of his standing. The implication is current Gogeta/Vegetto can't beat him which means Beerus and Broly are fodder

[FishermanJohnWest]

Moro fought a far stronger UI which is post TOP, Post Broly, Post 6 months training.

Yeah but thats nothing impressive when Jiren outdid the real thing. Moro beat a stronger version of an incomplete Ultra Instinct Goku. Jiren outlasted the real thing.

The real thing doesn't mean anything cause Moro fought a leagues stronger Omen which feats saying it's higher then the TOP completed version of it. The name itself doesn't mean anything

[FishermanJohnWest]

In that very same fight against Jiren, a banged up base Vegeta was fast enough to see, react and dodge an attack intended for MUI Goku..

Potara/fusion being useless against Moro is the first hint of his standing. The implication is current Gogeta/Vegetto can't beat him which means Beerus and Broly are fodder

That's actually wrong and it doesn't hint anything like that at all. It specifically mentions Vegeta ability and how cause of it, fusion won't work. has nothing to do power wise between the fusions vs Moro, and seeing how Moro isn't that massively higher then Goku or Vegeta at their strongest, he doesn't stack up to fusion power wise in the slightest

[FishermanJohnWest]

I'm guessing Moro grabs someone and puts that power on top of his.

That's what I think too, but if Moro really did add another UI tier character's power to his own strength, then there's no way even Beerus can help them at this point.
Either that, or there's a huge gap between Omen and the silver hair.

> Spirit fission only works when damage is dealt
> Potara/Dance is useless

Moro73 > current Gogeta/Vegetto?

Seems to imply that the gap between Moro73 and a hypothetical SSB Gogeta/Vegetto would be small enough that Moro's attacks could actually connect with the fusion, thus allowing Moro to use Spirit Fission and turn the tides.

I'm guessing a hypothetical SSBE or UI Gogeta/Vegetto would last even less than Goku did, so he's not being considered.

That's not implied at all, cause it all depends in the form the fusion is in, just how SSJ Broly crushed everyone and SSJ Gogeta went toe to toe with him and didn't go all out until Broly went further himself, hell he approached in him in base form as well. The gap between Moro and the Z fighters is less then SSJ Broly vs Goku and Vegeta based on feats and statements.

All this proves is that they don't want fusion to happen cause it already happen before.

[Xeno Goku Black]

The real thing doesn't mean anything cause Moro fought a leagues stronger Omen which feats saying it's higher then the TOP completed version of it. The name itself doesn't mean anything

It means everything because even if Moro fought a Ultra Instinct Sign Goku that was leagues stronger than it was before it still wasn't as strong as the true Ultra Instinct.

Moro isn't Mastered Ultra Instinct level. Jiren is.

[FishermanJohnWest]

The real thing doesn't mean anything cause Moro fought a leagues stronger Omen which feats saying it's higher then the TOP completed version of it. The name itself doesn't mean anything

It means everything because even if Moro fought a Ultra Instinct Sign Goku that was leagues stronger than it was before it still wasn't as strong as the true Ultra Instinct.

Moro isn't Mastered Ultra Instinct level. Jiren is.

prove it, I posted the scans showing how Omen feats while holding back are better then MUI from TOP

What evidence do you have saying otherwise

[Xeno Goku Black]

prove it, I posted the scans showing how Omen feats while holding back are better then MUI from TOP

That wasn't proof nor was it necessarily better.

In no way is the current incomplete Ultra Instinct superior to the former mastered Ultra Instinct. Not only is it partly common sense but if it was actually intended to be superior then we'd know about it for a fact.

When Goku reaches the level of surpasses the level that he was at during his fight with Jiren then we'll know about it.

[FishermanJohnWest]

prove it, I posted the scans showing how Omen feats while holding back are better then MUI from TOP

That wasn't proof nor was it necessarily better.

In no way is the current incomplete Ultra Instinct superior to the former mastered Ultra Instinct. Not only is it partly common sense but if it was actually intended to be superior then we'd know about it for a fact.

When Goku reaches the level of surpasses the level that he was at during his fight with Jiren then we'll know about it.

Goku in weaker forms has always surpassed his stronger forms from previous arcs, Blue Goku after Black arc > Kaioken x 10 Blue Goku from U6 vs U7

And that was proof, cause Omen suppressed blitzed the vision of Gohan and Piccolo, and that only happened in the TOP when MUI fought Jiren towards the end of the fight.

if you think the gap between Omen to MUI is bigger then post ToP, post Broly, post 6 months training then you need some serious evidence proving that

[Hugo Boss]

Regarding current UI Sign vs. ToP True UI, there is nothing really suggesting one is stronger than the other. None has made that comparison yet. Goku vs. Vegeta though is a different matter.

Also, 73 Moro’s power is Moro’s own power plus a copy of his former power. To make it simple, Vegeta made him go from 100 to 10, then he added 100 and went to 110.

[GodVegetto91]

The real thing doesn't mean anything cause Moro fought a leagues stronger Omen which feats saying it's higher then the TOP completed version of it. The name itself doesn't mean anything

It means everything because even if Moro fought a Ultra Instinct Sign Goku that was leagues stronger than it was before it still wasn't as strong as the true Ultra Instinct.

Moro isn't Mastered Ultra Instinct level. Jiren is.

You do realize that this version of Ultra Instinct Sign Goku is VASTLY more powerful than the one from the ToP right?

So yes, he’s stronger than his previous MUI from the ToP while in UI Sign.

After the ToP, Goku trained, then fought against Broly, then trained again, then fought against Moro (twice) and lost (twice), then trained with an Angel for 6 months in a room of Spirit and Time, and then mastered UI Omen.

This UI Sign Goku is stronger than the previous MUI from the ToP for certain.

Also guys, this new version of Moro is: Old Moro (who is already beyond SSJ3 level) + Prime Moro + 73’s power level WITH all of his abilities including 73’s Copy technique.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Goku in weaker forms has always surpassed his stronger forms from previous arcs, Blue Goku after Black arc > Kaioken x 10 Blue Goku from U6 vs U7

That was never said either but that's an entirely thing altogether.

And that was proof, cause Omen suppressed blitzed the vision of Gohan and Piccolo, and that only happened in the TOP when MUI fought Jiren towards the end of the fight

That's a very different circumstance too as Gohan and Piccolo were for used on Goku from the start and knew he was there and what he was currently doing as opposed to Goku just appearing out of the blue and nobody knowing about it.

Plus they had no trouble keeping track of him just moments later when Goku used the form at full power.

[Xeno Goku Black]

You do realize that this version of Ultra Instinct Sign Goku is VASTLY more powerful than the one from the ToP right?

Yes.

So yes, he’s stronger than his previous MUI from the ToP while in UI Sign.

That's a strange leap in logic right there. That because his Sign form is much stronger than before then of course it must be stronger than the Mastered version as well.

It isn't. Regardless of how much time passed, what he did, who he trained with, the current Ultra Instinct Sign is not stronger than the Ultra Instinct from before. That would make no sense and just is not how writing works.

If Goku had surpassed the level he used against Jiren, they would have absolutely have made that clear. It isn't as strong and that's the whole reason why they haven't used it yet.