"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[BWri]

Neutral
I think it is obvious to everyone that piccolo has god level, right? because I do not see sense in his strategy or that Moro has intervened in his attack

It's been clear to me for a few chapters now. He's fighting on par with a Gohan who is far stronger than the Gohan who stalemated Kefla. Kale alone was strong enough to harass Goku and Frieza in their god/golden forms. After some training post ToP and 2 months of intense training following Moro's initial invasion of earth, Goku told them both that he could hardly recognize them. Gohan is still the stronger of the two, but Piccolo's come a loooooong way.

And self destruction seems like a move that goes beyond the PL of its user. It has required a charge time too every time it's used. Maybe he can amp it like he can amp SBC. Did you notice he charged it like a Gekiretsu Kodan?

[MechaTrunks]

Neutral
I think it is obvious to everyone that piccolo has god level, right? because I do not see sense in his strategy or that Moro has intervened in his attack

It's been clear to me for a few chapters now. He's fighting on par with a Gohan who is far stronger than the Gohan who stalemated Kefla. Kale alone was strong enough to harass Goku and Frieza in their god/golden forms. After some training post ToP and 2 months of intense training following Moro's initial invasion of earth, Goku told them both that he could hardly recognize them. Gohan is still the stronger of the two, but Piccolo's come a loooooong way.

And self destruction seems like a move that goes beyond the PL of its user. It has required a charge time too every time it's used. Maybe he can amp it like he can amp SBC. Did you notice he charged it like a Gekiretsu Kodan?

ToP Gohan wasn't as strong as you paint him to be. Both Kale and Caulifla were completely beaten and depleted of energy when they fused, resulting in a much weaker Kefla than if they fused when they were at their peak.
Kale was being beaten by the weaklings of U11 and had almost no energy at all, and Caulifla despite being better had received quite the beating at that point as well.

It's unclear where Piccolo and Gohan stand compared to a SSJBlue as of now because this last saga's writting has been a bit less precise than the rest of the manga until now, but I doubt he's even at SSJG levels of power in Toyotarou's head (despite him surviving attacks that should have killed a SSJGod in 1 hit).

Regards!

[Anomandaris]

Hi All,

Longtime viewer/reader of this forum but finally registered.

I really don't get all the hate for this arc (or DBS in general) - I have really enjoyed Moro's story thus far, though I do wonder if they are drawing it out to give the anime more of a "gap" so it doesn't catch up too quickly once it (hopefully) restarts.

Like many here I would LOVE to see Gohan/Piccolo and the other Z Fighters step up and contribute to a win, instead of the Goku & Vegeta show, but still have really enjoyed how they've all been involved lately. I think if DBS had true courage it would kill Goku and/or Vegeta off for a year or so to let the other characters HAVE to develop more. I know their popularity makes that hard though and am realistic.

I don't see Merus getting the win here, but could see him doing enough to break the rules. Who knows, perhaps the Grand Priest erasing him would lead to a conflict between Goku & Team and the Angels.

[TKA]

Hi All,

Longtime viewer/reader of this forum but finally registered.

Welcome.

Like many here I would LOVE to see Gohan/Piccolo and the other Z Fighters step up and contribute to a win, instead of the Goku & Vegeta show, but still have really enjoyed how they've all been involved lately. I think if DBS had true courage it would kill Goku and/or Vegeta off for a year or so to let the other characters HAVE to develop more.

I'm isolating this because it's the only part of your post that isn't just in the realm of opinion.

"If a storyteller had real courage, s/he would decide to not write the stories s/he wants to write and instead write something s/he doesn't want to write."

This is a terrible take. That's nonsense on its face, and is only something I'm replying to because it's all too prevalent a thought. Dragonball is the story of Goku; everyone else is a side character. Dragonball Super is the story of Goku and Vegeta, with everyone else being side characters. Just because you happen to like those side characters does not mean the storytelling is inadequate because it chooses to continue telling the story it wants to and was DESIGNED to, instead of bowing to fan demands.

[Anomandaris]

Thanks for the welcome, and for coming at me on my first post, LOL - Love it!

I respect your opinion but disagree - giving other characters development can in fact DRIVE the main character's story.

Everybody takes something different from DB. For me, it has always been about never giving up no matter what the odds are. That even when you fail, you can still succeed. I actually love Goku and Vegeta as characters - I've always liked Gohan and Piccolo because I can relate to their relationship and Gohan's preference to be peaceful resonates with me. Giving them time in the spotlight doesn't have to be fan service, it can help push the story to deeper places - I know Goku is always going to be the main guy, and I'm cool with that!

It is also clear that at one time, Gohan was supposed to take over for Goku - sure that changed but let's not pretend the plan from Day 1 was always "this is Goku's story and everyone else is background". Things change

[Draconic]

You know, I never really cared to see this arc animated, as I don't find it noteworthy in the large scheme of things... but with how terrible the Ressurection of F story has been in Super and this whole climax feeling a lot like that arc's (or it's entire story to be more precise) I kinda want it animated so we can get a good version of that idea (Z-Fighters vs mooks while stalling for Goku and Vegeta with angel intervention at the end after they screw up) in the show.

The early bits with Buu, Namek and stuff are cool too, so why not. I mean, I'd rather this than retell Broly.

[Anomandaris]

You know, I never really cared to see this arc animated, as I don't find it noteworthy in the large scheme of things... but with how terrible the Ressurection of F story has been in Super and this whole climax feeling a lot like that arc's (or it's entire story to be more precise) I kinda want it animated so we can get a good version of that idea (Z-Fighters vs mooks while stalling for Goku and Vegeta with angel intervention at the end after they screw up) in the show.

The early bits with Buu, Namek and stuff are cool too, so why not. I mean, I'd rather this than retell Broly.

Totally agree - loved the Broly movie but don't want a rehash, unless they do some sort of expansion of Goku's visit to Broly's planet at the end (but don't retell the fight and movie) to give it more context as a "slice of life" episode or two.

[emperior]

This chapter made me worried the arc won’t be adapted. Moro stabbing Goku is a pretty big fucking deal and an important part of the story. And Moro’s stab is basically one of his signature moves.
But I am afraid the anime wouldn’t be allowed to show any of the stabbing scenes, except for the one on Buu and maybe the one on the Namekian (so they would have to cut Moro stabbing Cranberry and Goku) or they would censor them so much it would be stupid.

It was already stupid when Beerus stabbed Goku in the anime retelling and no blood came out, and they censored it with God’s aura and then had the dumb idea to make the wound regen for some reason.

The reason I say this is because if Toyotaro knew this was going to be animated I doubt he would have made such brutal scenes. And the higher ups would have told him to avoid them.

And honestly it would be really sad if the anime just didn’t have any of these scenes if it adapted the arc.
Like, imagine if back in the days they removed the scene where Piccolo blasts through Goku’s chest or any other kind of brutal scene which actually was important in the story. That would have been yikes.

[JulieYBM]

This chapter made me worried the arc won’t be adapted. Moro stabbing Goku is a pretty big fucking deal and an important part of the story. And Moro’s stab is basically one of his signature moves.
But I am afraid the anime wouldn’t be allowed to show any of the stabbing scenes, except for the one on Buu and maybe the one on the Namekian (so they would have to cut Moro stabbing Cranberry and Goku) or they would censor them so much it would be stupid.

It was already stupid when Beerus stabbed Goku in the anime retelling and no blood came out, and they censored it with God’s aura and then had the dumb idea to make the wound regen for some reason.

The reason I say this is because if Toyotaro knew this was going to be animated I doubt he would have made such brutal scenes. And the higher ups would have told him to avoid them.

And honestly it would be really sad if the anime just didn’t have any of these scenes if it adapted the arc.
Like, imagine if back in the days they removed the scene where Piccolo blasts through Goku’s chest or any other kind of brutal scene which actually was important in the story. That would have been yikes.

They can just not include the stab. Bleach would never include characters losing limbs in the TV version.

[Matches Malone]

This chapter made me worried the arc won’t be adapted. Moro stabbing Goku is a pretty big fucking deal and an important part of the story.

They'll just have Goku walking around with a black hole through him, as they do in One Piece and other shows.

[ShaggyBlanco]

If they adapt this arc I hope Toei takes some liberties with Moro's moveset, I mean regardless of how the characters were handled at least they gave Hit/Jiren/Toppo/Kefla more moves.
Maybe they can give Moro elemental powers or something, I mean with magic being an excuse anything is possible really.

[The Undying]

Giving them time in the spotlight doesn't have to be fan service, it can help push the story to deeper places

It can if they're integral to that story. They're completely worthless in this arc.

When an entire invasion subplot is haphazardly thrown into the middle of an arc with zero foreshadowing, zero weight, and exists only as an excuse to get fan favorites involved in some blatant nostalgiafest where they beat up goons with no bearing on plot progression, it rings hollow. This kind of thing was already done in Resurrection 'F', except that film wasn't insincere about it; Earth's safety was its whole premise.

If you're going to make other characters important to a story, do something with them. Focus on their development. Give them relationships with other important characters, i.e. Goku + Merus or Vegeta + Moro, while having those relationships play into the narrative. Make them significant to the central conflict, not just trivial ancillary ones.

This whole thing has been a textbook example of how you shouldn't do story structure.

[Magnificent Ponta]

But Whis would be out of job, meaning he can't function if Merus takes over with Moro. Whis would have to go back to the angel realm and I don't think Whis would appreciate just getting sidestepped like that. I bet Whis would be silently judging knowing he can't do anything and he'll have to wait for a universe of his own to appear.

Technically, all Whis told us is that a Guide Angel's function is suspended if a God of Destruction dies until a new God is appointed, which isn't quite the same thing as saying that an Angel is unable to do anything if they're not a Guide Angel anymore - the example of Merus itself makes pretty clear that, subject to the usual constraints of Angelic Neutrality, even non-Guide Angels can have a pretty broad scope of action, particularly if the Grand Priest sanctions it.

This makes me think - why is Beerus even a GoD? He doesn't like the job, and it's not like he's getting something out of it anyways from what we've seen. If anything, he's actually getting restricted by sharing a life-link with someone as prone to disasters as Shin.

Is he just doing it for the clout (the high position in the god hierarchy), or is it because becoming a GoD gives you greater power or something?
He could be doing it just to get Whis's coaching for free, but then again, see how easily Goku and Vegeta got the same treatment.

Also, I want to say - great username and picture lol.

Beerus likes the 'perks' of it - like he says, "Being a God of Destruction is amazing! You rarely have to work, and you can sleep for however long you want. All you gotta do is destroy some unnecessary planets once in a while. It's easy!" Of course, the things that Beerus values about being a God of Destruction are the same things that make him terrible at the job, and everyone knows it - even Shin's willing to say it to Beerus's face (not least because Beerus can't kill him for it).

(and thank you for the compliment).

I think if DBS had true courage it would kill Goku and/or Vegeta off for a year or so to let the other characters HAVE to develop more. I know their popularity makes that hard though and am realistic.

I get the logic of this position in theory, but when you consider the times Goku has actually died in the series so far, they've really just been springboards for him to surpass everyone even more completely than he already did, both in the Saiyan Arc and the Buu Arc (and in the Saiyan Arc, the other heroes had all the motivation they needed to get stronger).

I can't see a faithful portrayal of Goku's character allowing a little thing like death to lessen the gap between him and the heroes on the next tier down, however hard they work on it (we're in a world where Dead Freeza got noticeably stronger basically by just thinking about it, after all), or even to keep him from the fights that go down in the meantime. You'd have to either erase him from existence (which would indeed be bold), or contrive to put him decisively beyond the reach of whatever the current battle is - and that's how we got the Garlic Jr. arc...

[Tai Lung]

Neutral
I think it is obvious to everyone that piccolo has god level, right? because I do not see sense in his strategy or that Moro has intervened in his attack

It's been clear to me for a few chapters now. He's fighting on par with a Gohan who is far stronger than the Gohan who stalemated Kefla. Kale alone was strong enough to harass Goku and Frieza in their god/golden forms. After some training post ToP and 2 months of intense training following Moro's initial invasion of earth, Goku told them both that he could hardly recognize them. Gohan is still the stronger of the two, but Piccolo's come a loooooong way.

And self destruction seems like a move that goes beyond the PL of its user. It has required a charge time too every time it's used. Maybe he can amp it like he can amp SBC. Did you notice he charged it like a Gekiretsu Kodan?

ToP Gohan wasn't as strong as you paint him to be. Both Kale and Caulifla were completely beaten and depleted of energy when they fused, resulting in a much weaker Kefla than if they fused when they were at their peak.
Kale was being beaten by the weaklings of U11 and had almost no energy at all, and Caulifla despite being better had received quite the beating at that point as well.

It's unclear where Piccolo and Gohan stand compared to a SSJBlue as of now because this last saga's writting has been a bit less precise than the rest of the manga until now, but I doubt he's even at SSJG levels of power in Toyotarou's head (despite him surviving attacks that should have killed a SSJGod in 1 hit).

Regards!

That's just a theory that fans invented because the manga totally denies it ...
Vados and Champa said that Kefla was strong enough to beat everyone in the tournament ... (except Jiren) and they saw Goku and Toppo fight in addition to knowing the power of Frieza and other warriors when they saw them fight in that place.
Kaseral with his scouter said that kefla was stronger than kale ..
and the same kefla was not tired and she was very sure to beat everyone

[MechaTrunks]

That's just a theory that fans invented because the manga totally denies it ...
Vados and Champa said that Kefla was strong enough to beat everyone in the tournament ... (except Jiren) and they saw Goku and Toppo fight in addition to knowing the power of Frieza and other warriors when they saw them fight in that place.
Kaseral with his scouter said that kefla was stronger than kale ..
and the same kefla was not tired and she was very sure to beat everyone

Vegetto eating a senzu after fusing to recover his strength is not a theory at all, it's a stated fact in the manga.
Your personal interpretation of what Vados says doesn't have as much weight as that consolidated fact. Vado's words can be taken in tons of ways other than the one you used (she doesn't even mention Jiren at all).

Kaseral only compared Kefla's power to Kale when she was being beaten by them just a moment before, of course Kefla was above exhausted sub-SSJ levels of power Kale.

Regards!

[miguelnuva1]

All of this shit could've been avoided had Goku & Vegeta not fucked around in the first place.
They initially didn't go after Moro at full power. They decided to fight one-on-one. They (unknowingly)allowed Moro to absorb their energy. They came so underprepared that Moro was able to get the upperhand and get his wishes. They didn't try to fuse and instead wanted to beat Moro in their own, individual ways. The training they underwent wasn't enough. They allowed Moro to make a getaway and reobtain his power and gain new abilities by eating 7-3. And they developed no contingency in case Moro might have something else up his sleeve.
As much as Goku & Vegeta are touted as being geniuses in battle, I don't know how they could've done worse against this particular opponent. Their victory at the ToP and against Broly seems to have inflated their egos enough to delude them into thinking Moro was just another opponent.

You litterly just described them from the Buu saga onward. This behavior simply got worse in Super.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

Can I ask why nobody has thought of sealing Moro away? Does Moro have some anti sealing repellant on him that we're not aware of because they should've at least suggested it . I get no one wants to kill themselves trying to seal him but it's still an option given the situation. If they can't kill him they might as well seal him and put him somewhere where he'll never come out.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Can I ask why nobody has thought of sealing Moro away? Does Moro have some anti sealing repellant on him that we're not aware of because they should've at least suggested it . I get no one wants to kill themselves trying to seal him but it's still an option given the situation. If they can't kill him they might as well seal him and put him somewhere where he'll never come out.

You mean using the Mafuba? I guess, if Moro knows all Piccolo's moves, then that means he knows the Mafuba-Gaeshi, so arguably it shouldn't work on him - though it's an open question as to whether he'd really instinctively 'know' what such a technique is actually for if someone actually sprung the Mafuba on him.

[Koitsukai]

Can I ask why nobody has thought of sealing Moro away? Does Moro have some anti sealing repellant on him that we're not aware of because they should've at least suggested it . I get no one wants to kill themselves trying to seal him but it's still an option given the situation. If they can't kill him they might as well seal him and put him somewhere where he'll never come out.

You mean using the Mafuba? I guess, if Moro knows all Piccolo's moves, then that means he knows the Mafuba-Gaeshi, so arguably it shouldn't work on him - though it's an open question as to whether he'd really instinctively 'know' what such a technique is actually for if someone actually sprung the Mafuba on him.

Whis mentioned they, as in Beerus'household, had better methods to imprison someone back in the Black arc, so they probably can seal him if they need to.
About the mafuba, one would think that it would not be enough for someone as strong as Moro, but who knows?

[DiscountDabi]

Alright, As it is right now unless something happens in the coming chapters I don’t like new Moro. Granted I liked Moro from when he was on Namek, but they took away everything that made him interesting.

He primarily used the planets energy to fight before and it was something new that was interesting in fights.

Now he just shoots Ki Blasts and Punches like every other Dragon Ball Villian.

His Magic was also something about him that I liked. But he barley uses it now even at times when it would be nothing but beneficial. Like when Goku did the instant transmission Kamehameha, why didn’t he just eat the blast. Thats what he is there to do anyway, eat their energy. The only reason I could see for why he didn’t do it is that Toyotarou wanted his regeneration scene.

Also Moro’s Goat Design. The Most Unique thing about him. Thats gone for Perfect Hit over here.

And the fact that his magical abilities are being overshadowed by 7-3’s copy ability making Goku and Vegeta’s training useless as Moro just picked up a new technique that they didn’t train for. I was on the fence before but now that I think about it this really bothers me.