"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[DiscountDabi]

So given how Moro7-3 has drained me of any enthusiasm I might have had for this arc, I might as well go through all the issues I have with this arc so far both Minor and Major because I really can’t be bothered to care anymore.

For starters I still think its weird it took Moro 3 Days to collect 3 Dragon Balls. As fast as these Characters are he should have taken an hour at most.

Also the fact that he just gained the ability to sense dragon balls. No explanation was even attempted to be given for that.

Another thing is that it was never actually explained why Moro couldn’t absorb Buu’s Energy. I get why he can’t take the androids energy because they have no ki (although they can be brought back with the dragon balls so they clearly have life energy so why can’t he just steal that instead) but There is no given explanation besides “Magic” for why Moro can’t absorb Buu’s energy.

Now would also be an ample time to point out that litterally everything on Namek has been pointless. Moro could have Gone to namek, Beat Goku and Vegeta, Gotten his Magic Back, freed the prisoners and had them attack Goku and Vegeta and nothing changes. All the stuff between that is entirely pointless in the grande scheme of the arc since Buu is irrelevant now and the grand supreme kai is irrelevant.

Alright, I was supportive of it at first because I was hoping it would lead to something but seeing as how it hasn’t I’ll go ahead and say it. Moro wishing for the prisoners of the galactic prison to go free is a waste of a wish, comes out of nowhere, And as we have seen so far, has accomplished little more than padding for the arc.

Saganbo, Shimmoreka, 7-3, Yunba and the rest of these Xenoverse Custom Characters are as bland as they get. Which is funny because at this point Saganbo has more character than Moro.

Vegeta wanting to go to Yardrat out of the blue within seconds of him realizing that he needs tricks to beat Moro is odd. Plain and simple.

Buu Falls Asleep Again..Need I say more

7-3, Shimmoreka, and Yunba happen to go to a planet that happens to be the home of creatures that can create portals, just so they can come fight, beat them with Moro’s abilities, and then have Moro decide to not only let them live, but give them 2 months before he gets there.

7-3 has to go to the ship and recover. Except he had piccolo’s abilities and can regenerate. And he has endless stamina so what exactly does he need to recover. This is just a way to get him out of the story.

As I’ve said before, Ultra Instinct Goku can dodge Moro’s absorption like its a lock on kinda thing now and not the constant absorption it was before. Moro could have drained everyone during that fight and just chose not to.

“Vegeta has Never Been One to Misread an opponent’s strength”

And we come to Moro 7-3 himself. There were a million things that could have been done. Literally a million better options. But instead of those Toyotarou chose to go with Moro eating 7-3 (something we have no context for and no reason to assume he can do) and turning into discount cell. This one thing has ruined the entire arc for me because everything leading up to it is pointless now. The entire arc the thing that made him dangerous was his magic. Its what made him beat them on Namek. Its what Goku and Vegeta trained to counter m. Its why Gohan lost to 7-3 that first time.

And now that Vegeta has a counter for it, instead of having a drawn out fight where Vegeta has a satisfying and dramatic finish to this dumpster fire of a villain and an ark, he decides to just get a new special ability for them to deal with out of nowhere. My god.

Can this arc be over please? I don’t want to have to think about it anymore.

[The Undying]

Jiren serves as an example of what Goku may have been like if there weren't any dragon balls to save Roshi when he was killed by Piccolo. In fact, I think that's very deliberately the point, given that Jiren's master was also slaughtered by a demon and sentenced to a realm with no proper afterlife, like what happened to those killed by Piccolo. And Goku and Jiren actually have that connection over their love for their masters.

Good post. To further underline your quoted point, Jiren eliminates Roshi and then taunts Goku for not having perfected himself because his master still had lessons to teach him. Goku responds by saying he never sought perfection in the first place. Then, the story demonstrates that Jiren was actually projecting his own insecurities onto Goku's relationship with Roshi; his entire drive for his so-called perfection was seeking approval from Gicchin, who felt his student was still lacking in one crucial lesson.

The parallels and contrasts given to these characters are constantly emphasized throughout the manga. To say that there wasn't any subtext or chemistry between them is utterly absurd, to be quite frank.

[Dragon Wukong]

Good post. To further underline your quoted point, Jiren eliminates Roshi and then taunts Goku for not having perfected himself because his master still had lessons to teach him. Goku responds by saying he never sought perfection in the first place. Then, the story demonstrates that Jiren was actually projecting his own insecurities onto Goku's relationship with Roshi; his entire drive for his so-called perfection was seeking approval from Gicchin, who felt his student was still lacking in one crucial lesson.

The parallels and contrasts given to these characters are constantly emphasized throughout the manga. To say that there wasn't any subtext or chemistry between them is utterly absurd, to be quite frank.

I'd like to add that another of my favorite parts of the manga Tournament of Power is how integral Roshi becomes to the story in the arc, not just in aiding Goku achieve Ultra Instinct, but as something of a binding thread between Goku and Jiren in that continuity. It's through Goku's love of Roshi as his master that Jiren is able to compare himself to him and form that connection with Goku.

[emperior]

Jiren serves as an example of what Goku may have been like if there weren't any dragon balls to save Roshi when he was killed by Piccolo. In fact, I think that's very deliberately the point, given that Jiren's master was also slaughtered by a demon and sentenced to a realm with no proper afterlife, like what happened to those killed by Piccolo. And Goku and Jiren actually have that connection over their love for their masters.

I agree with the whole post, it’s a great analysis of the arc in the manga. But I disagree with this take.

Kame Sennin already taught everything he could to Goku by the time he was killed by Piccolo, and Goku had already surpassed him.
If he couldn’t have been revived that wouldn’t have made Goku into Jiren, because Goku has always been very different from Jiren.

Goku seeks strong opponents because he has been taught that there’s always someone stronger out there. Knowing this, he trains and fights to surpass himself, not his opponents. The turtle school teachings reject the concept of perfection. It accepts the idea that martial arts are about internal growth, which is a neverending procees.

On the other hand, Jiren believes in absolute power. He thinks that he can indeed be a complete fighter, and believes himself as such. His master too believed this, but felt like Jiren needed to also learn how to cooperate with others to reach the final perfection. Gicchin probably realized that, no matter what, a single man cannot win a team fight. While Jiren felt he actually became complete and wanted his master to be revived so he can see his progress. It’s possible that Jiren eventually succeeded into taking down the demon who killed his master, and that’s why he felt complete as a warrior.

Gicchin was quite obviously different from Kame Sennin. Jiren is actually the opposite of Goku, not because of there not being any Dragon Ball in Jiren’s world (that’s never been mentioned nor implied to be a key difference between the two) but because of their mentality. Which, in the end, amounts to the fact that Goku has no illusion of being the best there is and is therefore willing to cooperate with others to take down a threat. Once he surpassed himself through achieving Ultra Instinct he fulfilled once again his goal as his master taught him: he surpassed himself. The next thing he had to do, was to use his strength for the good of others, another thing Kame Sennin taught him, and was therefore willing to cooperate with others to beat Jiren. Note how it’s only after using Ultra Instinct that Goku begins to work with his teammates.

If anything, the arc has made it a key point that Kame Sennin’s the superior teacher. “My master’s as good a teacher as ever”. The turtle school is wonderful because it taught Goku the right mentality to martial arts, and gave him the tools to figure out the rest by himself.
Gicchin failed in this. It was actually Son Goku, the turtle school, who taught Jiren the final lesson.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Returning to Chapter 62 for the moment, I guess my thoughts on it are that it's a 'functionally necessary' chapter - since Chapter 61 powered Moro back up after Vegeta came close to ultimate victory, this Chapter requires us to see that this matters and what the consequences of it are, and so that's what we get.

Unfortunately, it relies on whatever the next couple of chapters have in store to show us whether the development is really worthwhile or not, which isn't ideal - I think the one thing that can be predicted is that, whatever the resolution is, at least some of the fan base will hate it, so it's not like there's a payoff waiting for them to completely change their minds or even reassess the arc (and I think there are only a very few resolutions possible that could 'flip' the arc radically in that way, in any case).

Stuck at this point for a month as we are, I guess an offering like this can feel a little uninspired and 'by-the-numbers'. I guess that's the burden of a 'functional' chapter like this, so I get the criticisms on that level. And sure, not everything about the arc is great, or even very good - the uneven pacing is a regular (and fair) criticism, for example; I think it's trying to be grand or 'epic' in scale, when it's actually just slow. But one unfortunate side-effect of this slowness is that it's given plenty of people ample time to just establish themselves in the camp of "I don't like this arc", and every Chapter is now just an opportunity to doggedly defend the position against all comers, even if the criticisms become purposeless, misdirected, or beside the point. This seems harmful and self-defeating to me, but hey. To each their own, I guess.

One of the most pleasing things about the arc, I think, is to see how far Toyotarou's art has come, even when compared to something as recent as the Tournament of Power arc. The sense of motion, I think, is much more pervasive than it used to be, which I think is very positive. I think the extra detail I'm seeing in the art fits better with Toyotarou's personal style, as well - while Toriyama's style has become more simplified (for want of a better word) over the years, I don't think trying to emulate that style is particularly well suited to anyone else.

[MCDaveG]

So given how Moro7-3 has drained me of any enthusiasm I might have had for this arc, I might as well go through all the issues I have with this arc so far both Minor and Major because I really can’t be bothered to care anymore.

For starters I still think its weird it took Moro 3 Days to collect 3 Dragon Balls. As fast as these Characters are he should have taken an hour at most.

Also the fact that he just gained the ability to sense dragon balls. No explanation was even attempted to be given for that.

Another thing is that it was never actually explained why Moro couldn’t absorb Buu’s Energy. I get why he can’t take the androids energy because they have no ki (although they can be brought back with the dragon balls so they clearly have life energy so why can’t he just steal that instead) but There is no given explanation besides “Magic” for why Moro can’t absorb Buu’s energy.

Now would also be an ample time to point out that litterally everything on Namek has been pointless. Moro could have Gone to namek, Beat Goku and Vegeta, Gotten his Magic Back, freed the prisoners and had them attack Goku and Vegeta and nothing changes. All the stuff between that is entirely pointless in the grande scheme of the arc since Buu is irrelevant now and the grand supreme kai is irrelevant.

Alright, I was supportive of it at first because I was hoping it would lead to something but seeing as how it hasn’t I’ll go ahead and say it. Moro wishing for the prisoners of the galactic prison to go free is a waste of a wish, comes out of nowhere, And as we have seen so far, has accomplished little more than padding for the arc.

Saganbo, Shimmoreka, 7-3, Yunba and the rest of these Xenoverse Custom Characters are as bland as they get. Which is funny because at this point Saganbo has more character than Moro.

Vegeta wanting to go to Yardrat out of the blue within seconds of him realizing that he needs tricks to beat Moro is odd. Plain and simple.

Buu Falls Asleep Again..Need I say more

7-3, Shimmoreka, and Yunba happen to go to a planet that happens to be the home of creatures that can create portals, just so they can come fight, beat them with Moro’s abilities, and then have Moro decide to not only let them live, but give them 2 months before he gets there.

7-3 has to go to the ship and recover. Except he had piccolo’s abilities and can regenerate. And he has endless stamina so what exactly does he need to recover. This is just a way to get him out of the story.

As I’ve said before, Ultra Instinct Goku can dodge Moro’s absorption like its a lock on kinda thing now and not the constant absorption it was before. Moro could have drained everyone during that fight and just chose not to.

“Vegeta has Never Been One to Misread an opponent’s strength”

And we come to Moro 7-3 himself. There were a million things that could have been done. Literally a million better options. But instead of those Toyotarou chose to go with Moro eating 7-3 (something we have no context for and no reason to assume he can do) and turning into discount cell. This one thing has ruined the entire arc for me because everything leading up to it is pointless now. The entire arc the thing that made him dangerous was his magic. Its what made him beat them on Namek. Its what Goku and Vegeta trained to counter m. Its why Gohan lost to 7-3 that first time.

And now that Vegeta has a counter for it, instead of having a drawn out fight where Vegeta has a satisfying and dramatic finish to this dumpster fire of a villain and an ark, he decides to just get a new special ability for them to deal with out of nowhere. My god.

Can this arc be over please? I don’t want to have to think about it anymore.

Seriously Discount Cell You explained my problem with Moro with just two words.
I have simmilar problems with this arc that you have and my biggest one is the uninspired and bland design for the characters.

[Dragon Wukong]

I agree with the whole post, it’s a great analysis of the arc in the manga. But I disagree with this take.

Kame Sennin already taught everything he could to Goku by the time he was killed by Piccolo, and Goku had already surpassed him.
If he couldn’t have been revived that wouldn’t have made Goku into Jiren, because Goku has always been very different from Jiren.

Goku seeks strong opponents because he has been taught that there’s always someone stronger out there. Knowing this, he trains and fights to surpass himself, not his opponents. The turtle school teachings reject the concept of perfection. It accepts the idea that martial arts are about internal growth, which is a neverending procees.

On the other hand, Jiren believes in absolute power. He thinks that he can indeed be a complete fighter, and believes himself as such. His master too believed this, but felt like Jiren needed to also learn how to cooperate with others to reach the final perfection. Gicchin probably realized that, no matter what, a single man cannot win a team fight. While Jiren felt he actually became complete and wanted his master to be revived so he can see his progress. It’s possible that Jiren eventually succeeded into taking down the demon who killed his master, and that’s why he felt complete as a warrior.

Gicchin was quite obviously different from Kame Sennin. Jiren is actually the opposite of Goku, not because of there not being any Dragon Ball in Jiren’s world (that’s never been mentioned nor implied to be a key difference between the two) but because of their mentality. Which, in the end, amounts to the fact that Goku has no illusion of being the best there is and is therefore willing to cooperate with others to take down a threat. Once he surpassed himself through achieving Ultra Instinct he fulfilled once again his goal as his master taught him: he surpassed himself. The next thing he had to do, was to use his strength for the good of others, another thing Kame Sennin taught him, and was therefore willing to cooperate with others to beat Jiren. Note how it’s only after using Ultra Instinct that Goku begins to work with his teammates.

If anything, the arc has made it a key point that Kame Sennin’s the superior teacher. “My master’s as good a teacher as ever”. The turtle school is wonderful because it taught Goku the right mentality to martial arts, and gave him the tools to figure out the rest by himself.
Gicchin failed in this. It was actually Son Goku, the turtle school, who taught Jiren the final lesson.

Good analysis in turn. I didn't consider how Goku's mentality already differed at the point where Roshi felt Goku surpassed him as I wrote that post. And you're right to contrast Gicchin himself with Roshi.

Though I would say that I feel as though there is meant to be some contrast between Goku and Jiren with how Jiren himself views death (as well as the idea of killing an opponent), and I don't feel one can properly analyze that particular notion without noting the fact that Jiren has not been able to revive his master, and given his shock of possibly being granted a wish, that there's an implication that a lack of dragon balls in U11 is a key difference. That may not be why Jiren is so different from Goku, but it certainly lends itself to that fact regardless.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

How long until Perfect Moro has some other ability to make him unbeatable? I'm sure they'll come up with something when he's actually on the ropes...again..

[DiscountDabi]

How long until Perfect Moro has some other ability to make him unbeatable? I'm sure they'll come up with something when he's actually on the ropes...again..

Its ruined the arc for me tbh. I couldn’t care less now about his copy ability because if they figure out a way to beat that then he’ll just pull another ability out of his butt.

[Jiren The Alpha]

What happened to the ability were Moro could absorb energy when people were near him?

[DiscountDabi]

What happened to the ability were Moro could absorb energy when people were near him?

They basically nerfed him. Now it needs to lock on and he can’t do it passively.

[emperior]

What happened to the ability were Moro could absorb energy when people were near him?

This was retconned for some reason...

[Magnificent Ponta]

Gotta be honest here and come out with it - I really don't get all the comments I'm seeing describing Moro as a Perfect Cell knock-off.

Why? Is it just because he's got a similar face now? Is that really it? Because Moro, as a character, has always been most similar to Piccolo (with elements of Buu thrown in, who likewise has similarities to Piccolo in his background), and I don't see anything that's substantially changed that here.

Can someone actually justify this take properly, rather than just saying it's true?

[ShaggyBlanco]

Gotta be honest here and come out with it - I really don't get all the comments I'm seeing describing Moro as a Perfect Cell knock-off.

Why? Is it just because he's got a similar face now? Is that really it? Because Moro, as a character, has always been most similar to Piccolo (with elements of Buu thrown in, who likewise has similarities to Piccolo in his background), and I don't see anything that's substantially changed that here.

Can someone actually justify this take properly, rather than just saying it's true?

He was more like Piccolo Daimao when all we knew about him was that he had magic and wanted to become young again, then we found out all he did was absorb energy (something more akin to Cell than Buu since he didn't need to absorb them), with him eating 73 and having this face along with possibly copying everyone's attacks he does look like Cell, at least imo

[emperior]

Let’s just admit that, unlike other Super antagonists/villains, Moro is the most generic and that’s why everyone keeps comparing him to other villains we already had.

It’s very unfortunate. But there’s still some hope he can show more of his personality. For example, I remember him hinting at some greater plan for the universe which would require the prisoners he freed to gather
materials and riches, and this has never been expanded upon.

I am also beginning to believe this arc will go on for longer than expected, so there may be many more twists and much more to add to Moro’s character.
But, if it doesn’t, there’s still the possibility of Moro being similar to anime Jiren or Heroes’ Hearts, both of which got most of their characterization at the end of their stories.

[Magnificent Ponta]

He was more like Piccolo Daimao when all we knew about him was that he had magic and wanted to become young again,

In his goals and motivations, he is still most like Piccolo Daimao. He wants to become the eternal ruler of the galaxy so his chief goal (in Moro's case, eating people to his heart's content - in this detail, more like Buu than Cell) can be realised and perpetuated.

then we found out all he did was absorb energy (something more akin to Cell than Buu since he didn't need to absorb them),

Who is the 'he' who doesn't need to? Moro? Moro lives by absorbing ki from living beings. Cell only absorbed Human beings as a primer for absorbing the Androids. That isn't very similar.

with him eating 73 and having this face along with possibly copying everyone's attacks he does look like Cell, at least imo

Eating OG73-I isn't really the big deal here - it's eating a version of himself that has given him the lion's share of his power (and again, as a plot point, literally eating a version of yourself and gaining more power is much more like Buu than like Cell). Even looking at the narrative beat this chapter represents, it's more reminiscent of Buu absorbing Gotenks and Piccolo and turning the tables on previously dominant heroes, even down to the discussion of whether his newfound power will last 30 minutes.

As for appearance - cover up the faces (which I already mentioned), and tell me what design similarities Perfect Cell and Moro have. I don't see any.

[Dragon Wukong]

As for appearance - cover up the faces (which I already mentioned), and tell me what design similarities Perfect Cell and Moro have. I don't see any.

I will accept one criticism over the design, and it's that the body armor Moro has (in general, mind you) is a really common style for alien-type characters in the series. Frieza's second form, Cooler, Pui Pui, Sealas, and Seven-Three. The latter two are noticeable, because they're both designed by Toyotaro for a recent game and arc, with Seven-Three likely being a concept design for Sealas in the first place.

It's also noticeable that the concept behind Moro's final form, fusing with his android side-kick that can copy the abilities of other fighters, is ripped straight from Sealas.

Honestly, Moro doesn't look like Cell though. No more than any other alien in Dragon Ball. His final form does bare more of a facial similarity with Sealas, and with that prior point, I think it's an appropriate criticism to say that Toyo took a lot from Sealas in general for this arc. Which is fine, it is his own creation after all.

[ShaggyBlanco]

In his goals and motivations, he is still most like Piccolo Daimao. He wants to become the eternal ruler of the galaxy so his chief goal (in Moro's case, eating people to his heart's content - in this detail, more like Buu than Cell) can be realised and perpetuated.

True

Who is the 'he' who doesn't need to? Moro? Moro lives by absorbing ki from living beings. Cell only absorbed Human beings as a primer for absorbing the Androids. That isn't very similar.

Sorry for the confusing comment, what I meant was that iirc with Buu we never saw him absorb someone's energy, as in just taking the energy out of the opponent's body. I think this is something that reminds people of Cell, regardless of the differences in the motivations to do it.

Eating OG73-I isn't really the big deal here - it's eating a version of himself that has given him the lion's share of his power (and again, as a plot point, literally eating a version of yourself and gaining more power is much more like Buu than like Cell). Even looking at the narrative beat this chapter represents, it's more reminiscent of Buu absorbing Gotenks and Piccolo and turning the tables on previously dominant heroes, even down to the discussion of whether his newfound power will last 30 minutes.

It reminded me of Super Perfect Cell where he was in a previous weaker state but then returned stronger, but the way it went is more like Buu like you said.

As for appearance - cover up the faces (which I already mentioned), and tell me what design similarities Perfect Cell and Moro have. I don't see any.

There isn't any aside from the face but my comment wasn't saying there was, it was about him copying attacks and being able to regenerate like Piccolo/Cell (things Buu also did but the face reminds people of Cell more)

His final form does bare more of a facial similarity with Sealas, and with that prior point, I think it's an appropriate criticism to say that Toyo took a lot from Sealas in general for this arc. Which is fine, it is his own creation after all.

He does look a lot more like Sealas, but it is easier for people to know Cell than him since he's from Heroes

[Magnificent Ponta]

Sorry for the confusing comment, what I meant was that iirc with Buu we never saw him absorb someone's energy, as in just taking the energy out of the opponent's body. I think this is something that reminds people of Cell, regardless of the differences in the motivations to do it.

Ah, okay - thanks for clearing that up. I think that if you just look at what Moro's doing as just 'eating people', again I'd argue it's more like Buu in a general sense (especially since for Moro, this is a magical ability, which Buu is also all about), though I can see why it might remind of Cell up to a point. However, I don't think this detail gives people who are arguing 'Perfect Cell knock-off' much purchase in their arguments (I recognise that's not what you're doing here, however), not least because Perfect Cell doesn't absorb anything from anybody.

There isn't any aside from the face but my comment wasn't saying there was, it was about him copying attacks and being able to regenerate like Piccolo/Cell

Fair enough, but if we have a character that hews most closely to Piccolo already, to me the practical upshot of getting Piccolo's actual abilities into the bargain doesn't principally make Moro more like Cell, it makes him more like Piccolo. Skipping Piccolo and going straight to Perfect Cell for comparisons doesn't make any kind of sense to me when talking about Moro. It's true that Moro's also just acquired Vegeta's moves, but I can't see how anyone would honestly argue that the ability to copy moves like OG73-I does bears a true resemblance to anything Cell can do; it all just depends on who Moro decides to copy, and right now he's copying the heroes.

So again, I guess we're just left with the face (and Dragon Wukong has called that into question as the most obvious influence, too). Ultimately I guess I just find the claim that Moro is, in any truly substantial way, "like" Perfect Cell to be completely unconvincing, particularly when such more convincing and obvious comparisons can be drawn with Piccolo and Buu.

[Koitsukai]

So, how many chapters do you guys think we have left?

We've been going on for 21 chapters now. I think we have 3 more chapters to go, I don't believe a logical conclusion would need more than three to wrap this up. I say october is the month Moro is no mo'. I think we are way past anymore asspulls, so I hope august and september close Merus' arc/journey/intervention, and perhaps Beerus chiming in too, september I guess will have our heroes back on the ring and october should be when Vegeta or whoever kills this fucker. I feel four chapters, one more than what I hope, would slow down the pace of the climax battle.

About the Cell thing, I think it has more to do with their similar evolution of the face rather than their characters per se. Moro started looking like an old goat, then was a younger, buffer goat and then evolved a human face, Cell started looking like... well like some thing, then he grew lips, and finally a human face. I guess the resemblance is based on how they went from non-human faces to having human features in their ultimate state. That's the only thing I see in common.