"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

So, how many chapters do you guys think we have left?

We've been going on for 21 chapters now. I think we have 3 more chapters to go, I don't believe a logical conclusion would need more than three to wrap this up. I say october is the month Moro is no mo'. I think we are way past anymore asspulls, so I hope august and september close Merus' arc/journey/intervention, and perhaps Beerus chiming in too, september I guess will have our heroes back on the ring and october should be when Vegeta or whoever kills this fucker. I feel four chapters, one more than what I hope, would slow down the pace of the climax battle.

About the Cell thing, I think it has more to do with their similar evolution of the face rather than their characters per se. Moro started looking like an old goat, then was a younger, buffer goat and then evolved a human face, Cell started looking like... well like some thing, then he grew lips, and finally a human face. I guess the resemblance is based on how they went from non-human faces to having human features in their ultimate state. That's the only thing I see in common.

Hopefully no more than 3 and this shit ends. Fire this hack and get someone competent.

[Alruneia]

So, how many chapters do you guys think we have left?

We've been going on for 21 chapters now. I think we have 3 more chapters to go, I don't believe a logical conclusion would need more than three to wrap this up. I say october is the month Moro is no mo'. I think we are way past anymore asspulls, so I hope august and september close Merus' arc/journey/intervention, and perhaps Beerus chiming in too, september I guess will have our heroes back on the ring and october should be when Vegeta or whoever kills this fucker. I feel four chapters, one more than what I hope, would slow down the pace of the climax battle.

I think 3 is a bit of a low estimate, considering Toyotaro's overall pacing in this arc. 4 or 5 seem more likely to me. Next chapter should cover most of Merus' last part in the story, with Goku and Vegeta also getting healed. After that, the true final battle will begin, and it won't feel right to me if that battle doesn't last at least two chapters. (Though that does depend on the way Moro is defeated, of course. I won't be surprised if it's a relatively simple battle to win, but I don't think it's going to be rushed.) Then, after Moro has been defeated, they have to restore the damage Moro did across the universe with the Dragon Balls and "wind the arc down", and I don't think that should just be a footnote. So I think it should be at least 4 chapters. Maybe a "3.5 chapters" thing if Toyo repeats what he did with the end of the ToP and the beginning of the Moro arc, I guess.

[Tai Lung]

Toppo had an entire exhibition match where he was able to defeat Goku, and serves as Vegeta's benchmark throughout the tournament for "surpassing Goku" by defeating the man who defeated him. (Who is then meant to surpass Vegeta by properly tapping into Ultra Instinct.)

that toppo is a "Power level" walking is not a character development or even a characterization

Kale's relationship with Caulifla is hinted at in her introduction and explored further in her actual chapters. Whether or not she ends up controlling her strength is irrelevant, she's Toyotaro's way of hinting at Broly (if that isn't obvious.) Caulifla actually has a pretty great fight against Frieza, and manages to hold her own briefly even against his golden form thanks to Kale's discrete aid, not to mention her relationship and camaraderie with both Kale and Cabba are developed throughout their chapters

-their friendship does not seem to be reciprocal since caulifla knows her as a follower more ...even when caulifla finds out that kale is going to die it's like "oh no" I don't want that to happen without a reaction that reflects their relationship and although they explain to us why kale appreciates it so much which raises more errors ... if "kale base" are strong because she needs caulifla she could literally have what she wants to steal it would not be a problem even she should be able to beat cabba if she can harm frieza ...
-that does not reward that caulifla was humiliated almost always taking into account that frieza only played with her
-caulifla in the manga was literally a fighter who does not like to fight as a team with anyone ... nor was the 3 shown fighting in a team so a camaraderie relationship never developed in the end each did their part separately

Cabba arguably got more development in the manga's Tournament of Power than he has in any other arc, regardless of continuity. He's the one who takes the intiative to recruit Caulifla, convinces her to join and bring Kale. He's the one who gets Kale to unleash her full power. And lastly, he's the one who manages to save Kale from elimination and self-destruction by putting the potara on her and tossing her back onto the stage, creating Kefla at the cost of his own place in the tournament. None of what he did can qualify as "plot armour." Cabba's struggles and development is one of my favorite parts of the Tournament of Power in the manga.

because his whole character is based on "plot conveniences"
-Vados did not find caulifla and kale but cabba yes
-caulifla who has spent more time with kale does not know her power but cabba discovers it the instant he meets her
-Kale eliminate several warriors from her own team but cabba is saved by vegeta
-the only one who is interested in meeting the Saiyans from other universes, that's why the only one who benefits
-Neither Frieza or Dyspo decide to get him off the platform even though they are much stronger than him.
-cabba did not know anything about the ssj but after in the top he talks about a demon saiyan who never spoke before
-Kale does not know him but decides to talk about her problem with cabba that is reason because he motive her.

literally a character made up of a parade of conveniences and you don't know how I enjoyed when he was eliminated lol

Ribrianne's whole existence, is a gag yes. But she still has a somewhat lengthy fight and in a sense, goes through her own arc before deciding to drop herself out of the arena, and we see her relationship with her fellow support magical girls in action. So what if it's a joke? DB has its roots in gags. Not every important fight had to be serious.

I will agree with you just because at least the comedy was better handled in the manga

The Namekians in the manga serve as a fun way of saying "Oh yea U6 has Namekians too." while also demonstrating Kale's mindlessness in knocking out her own teammates. Anilaza likewise doesn't have to do something, he's a gigantic fusion that Kale takes down in a single hit. That's his purpose. There's a chance he was the strongest opponent Kale fought one-on-one and she managed to topple him easily at her full strength in a single blow. In a rampage where most of her foes are absolute fodder to her, Anilaza is an exception of true power that Kale manages to take down, just as easily one might add..

oh it was a joke ... you know? it's not funny
in fact they could have made a more durable fight ... because the truth if anilaza doesn't show anything, he loses the point of proving the level of kale

Lastly, Dyspo was literally the most active member of the Pride Troopers. It's implied he isn't anywhere near as strong as Toppo or Jiren, but despite that he manages to fulfill the role of the greatest support the Pride Troopers have in the Tournament of Power. He's always there when something is going down, be it saving Toppo from getting knocked out by Kale, taking on Goku with the other troopers, or trying to stop Cabba from putting the Potara on Kale. He's effectively Toppo's greatest support throughout the tournament, right until the end when they both are allowed to drop off by Jiren.

that is to say, any pride trooper can fulfill its role since there is nothing characteristic in the him

U6 wasn't built up as Frieza's "rivalry"? It can be argued no one was meant to take that place for Frieza. He was never focused on finishing any particular opponent, he was designated as and served his role completely as the wild card. He went for what looked like easy pickings, and when the pickings weren't easy he stopped pursuing. One could argue his "rivalry" was always destined to be with the Pride Troopers, given his contrast with Jiren in both ideology and naming scheme. And he served that rivalry well by taking down Toppo and Dyspo before sacrificing himself to ensure U7's victory by tackling down Jiren (and for some victorious irony, his sworn foe Goku.)

You can argue there's a point with Gohan, who was likely given Kefla as an opponent so he had something particularly impressive to his name in the tournament, but there's still a dichotomy between Gohan, a half-saiyan who no longer relies on transformations whatsoever, and Kefla, a fusion of two super saiyans, one of whom has her own unique, absolutely powerful transformation. It's the one big fight that unfortunately isn't really given much development, but as I said earlier, moving past it still served a purpose for the pacing of the arc..

I find it very silly to put Frieza to fight against Saiyans without any purpose taking into account the whole story behind Frieza and his relationship with that race.
the problem is that gohan is not the perfect example of hard training or that he has never used transformations literally he owes a lot to being special unlike goku maybe if we had seen him more active

I mean, at this point it's a matter of opinion, but I felt Goku and Jiren had plenty of dialogue, chemistry, and interaction in the manga. One could argue Jiren's techniques were boring, but Jiren contrasts and connects with Goku via their relationships with their masters and handling of the deaths of those close to them. His view of death in comparison to Goku offers, in my opinion, the one of the most interesting chemistries between a hero and an antagonist. Goku literally achieves Ultra Instinct by maintaining complete self-control in spite of the shock to his emotions from 17's "death," while Jiren voices out himself his wish to not see anymore death beyond the erasures he's forced to see in the tournament, because he himself is someone who so truly values life.

Jiren serves as an example of what Goku may have been like if there weren't any dragon balls to save Roshi when he was killed by Piccolo. In fact, I think that's very deliberately the point, given that Jiren's master was also slaughtered by a demon and sentenced to a realm with no proper afterlife, like what happened to those killed by Piccolo. And Goku and Jiren actually have that connection over their love for their masters.

I mean, ultimately we can agree to disagree on this one. But for whatever flaws there is still a lot people can enjoy in the manga's ToP, and it can be read as a decently paced, fully developed story, with chemistry between the characters. I don't blame anyone who sees it as a failure, that's ultimately their opinion, and I can't change that, nor would I care to years after the fact. But personally, I think the way Toyotaro handled it made it a great tournament, and I can at least explain why I feel that way.

ok I also didn't say you can't enjoy it

[emperior]

My prediction (which will be totally inaccurate):
- Chapter 63: Merus stalls, Dende and Krillin heal, end of chapter both Goku and Vegeta are back to form
- Chapter 64: Goku and Vegeta vs Moro
- Chapter 65: Moro is killed
- Chapter 66: Aftermath

So December would be the beginning of the new arc, if there is one.

[Dragon Wukong]

that toppo is a "Power level" walking is not a character development or even a characterization

Toppo does get plenty of characterization, and even development both through his introductory chapters and the actual tournament. Toppo is a lot like Jiren in his overall value of life, not willing to secure victory at the potential cost of those he rescues, but is more than willing to sacrifice the other universes if it means his can survive. As his fights with Vegeta continues, he exhibits pride in that he, as a potential deity, shouldn't lose to Vegeta, who he refers to as a "lesser being." In the end though he accepts the fact he couldn't defeat Vegeta himself, and that he has to rely on Jiren to come through in the tournament. It's subtle, but that is development that takes place over several chapters.

-their friendship does not seem to be reciprocal since caulifla knows her as a follower more ...even when caulifla finds out that kale is going to die it's like "oh no" I don't want that to happen without a reaction that reflects their relationship and although they explain to us why kale appreciates it so much which raises more errors ... if "kale base" are strong because she needs caulifla she could literally have what she wants to steal it would not be a problem even she should be able to beat cabba if she can harm frieza ...
-that does not reward that caulifla was humiliated almost always taking into account that frieza only played with her
-caulifla in the manga was literally a fighter who does not like to fight as a team with anyone ... nor was the 3 shown fighting in a team so a camaraderie relationship never developed in the end each did their part separately

I'm going to be honest. This isn't me trying to be rude or insult you, but I think you need to start using proper grammar, capitalization, and punctuation in your posts. Because it's very hard for me to respond when it's difficult for me to read what you're saying. That being said, I'll try to respond the best I can.

The friendship is still definitely reciprocal. Caulifla's reaction to Kale's power makes that much very clear. She was hesitant when Cabba insisted on recruiting her because Kale has made an effort to hide that power from Caulifla her entire life. And I mean, if Toyotaro didn't draw an anguished enough face of shock and grief for you, then you can feel that way I guess, but the dialogue makes it very clear that Caulifla is freaking out over the prospect of Kale dying and wants to save her.

I really have no clue what you're talking about when you bring up "kale base" and Frieza.

Humiliation is subjective, but whether she was or not, does it matter? She still showcased a good amount of strength and an impressive effort against Golden Frieza, a fighter who outmatched her in every possible sense.

As for the teamwork, I'm not sure if you need to be reminded of this, but Caulifla is a Saiyan. Saying the fact she wanted to fight on her own negates any camaraderie or teamwork is like saying Goku wanting to fight [Insert Villain Here] by himself negates any camaraderie or friendship he feels toward [Insert Friend/Family Here]. It doesn't. And the very second that Kale's life was on the line Caulifla stopped caring about that anyhow. She immediately teamed up with Cabba to stop Dyspo so he could save Kale.

because his whole character is based on "plot conveniences"
-Vados did not find caulifla and kale but cabba yes
-caulifla who has spent more time with kale does not know her power but cabba discovers it the instant he meets her
-Kale eliminate several warriors from her own team but cabba is saved by vegeta
-the only one who is interested in meeting the Saiyans from other universes, that's why the only one who benefits
-Neither Frieza or Dyspo decide to get him off the platform even though they are much stronger than him.
-cabba did not know anything about the ssj but after in the top he talks about a demon saiyan who never spoke before
-Kale does not know him but decides to talk about her problem with cabba that is reason because he motive her.

literally a character made up of a parade of conveniences and you don't know how I enjoyed when he was eliminated lol

Alrighty, in order now.

Champa asked Cabba to find more Saiyan fighters. Why would Champa or Vados know better about who the strongest Saiyans are on Sadala than Cabba? Cabba is literally an elite member of Sadala's military, so it's well within reason he'd have that knowledge. Whis can't even say who the strongest fighters on Earth are. It's no different than Beerus and Whis relying on Goku.

Kale has done a good job of hiding her strength from Caulifla, and only specifically Caulifla. All Cabba had to do was connect the dots when Kale took the pendant away from him before he powered down.

Vegeta saving Cabba is development on the bond that started in the U6 tournament. And it's something that also happened in the anime, so for all we know that might actually be a Toriyama plot point.

Caulifla and Kale didn't deny any interest in the Saiyans from U7, but Cabba already told them that they're far stronger, and this is a tournament for their lives. It isn't in the interest of Caulifla or Kale to get involved unless pursued, like Frieza had done. And the second that happened Caulifla nearly got knocked out, and Kale was still trying to hide her power. Keep in mind Cabba didn't interact with the U7 Saiyans either until Vegeta saved him.

Frieza was toying with them for fun until Kale's rampaged stopped him. Dyspo was about to knock Cabba out but Caulifla stopped him. Also Dyspo actually isn't implied to be any stronger than an SS2 in the manga, so "much stronger" is presumptive.

Caulifla also knew about the "Legendary Saiyan." They never call it Super Saiyan, so there's no contradiction. It's a separate legend in U6's Sadala.

Kale just gave a quick background on why she doesn't want to use her power for exposition's sake. Cabba was just mad because it was an emergency and he knew that Kale had power that could surpass him as a Super Saiyan from earlier, which spurred Kale's background exposition. This isn't contrivance, it's just a relatively normal story beat.

A lot of these points you've made don't really paint Cabba as some special guy or anything. He's literally just a normal character whose gone through efforts to help recruit strong members to his team, and then strived to aid them when things went south. He never portrayed any knowledge that one wouldn't expect him to have. The second new information is introduced (the legend of the "Legendary Saiyan") it's revealed to basically be common knowledge among Saiyans in that universe through Caulifla. He never exhibits strength beyond what would be expected of him, and manages to go out having given his best shot to save his universe by saving Kale.

oh it was a joke ... you know? it's not funny
in fact they could have made a more durable fight ... because the truth if anilaza doesn't show anything, he loses the point of proving the level of kale

I didn't say it was a joke. Whether or not you dislike it, they served a purpose. Not every fighter of every universe was meant to be particularly important, and the same holds true for Universe 6. Saonel and Pilina were unimportant fighters, so they share a role with Magetta and get knocked out by Kale.

Likewise, Anilaza doesn't have to show anything. The visage of a gigantic fusion in and of itself implies strength. Kale knocking him out in a single blow is the distinctive image to imply how strong she's become.

that is to say, any pride trooper can fulfill its role since there is nothing characteristic in the him

Huh? Why does it matter that "any Pride Trooper" can fulfill that role? It's most appropriate for Dyspo since Dyspo is the weakest of the main trio. It allowed Dyspo to remain wholly important despite his weakness compared to characters more on-par with Goku and Vegeta.

I find it very silly to put Frieza to fight against Saiyans without any purpose taking into account the whole story behind Frieza and his relationship with that race.
the problem is that gohan is not the perfect example of hard training or that he has never used transformations literally he owes a lot to being special unlike goku maybe if we had seen him more active

Frieza fighting against the Saiyans was a nice little nod, but his role was always intended to be up against Jiren in the end. So having Frieza's true opponents be the Pride Troopers in the end is more appropriate.

Did I say Gohan wasn't special or didn't ever use transformations in the past? No. All I said was there's dichotomy between a half Saiyan who doesn't currently transform fighting against a character that's two full-blooded saiyans fused into one, utilizing their own specially strong transformation. Which is true.

ok I also didn't say you can't enjoy it

No, but be careful as not to be disingenuous and deny that development or chemistry exists in a work just because you yourself dislike it. As I've pointed out, a lot of that exists in the Tournament of Power arc in the manga.

[Miracles]

“Vegeta has Never Been One to Misread an opponent’s strength”

Can this arc be over please? I don’t want to have to think about it anymore.

I agree that the arc overall has been mediocre to bad.
However, I don't understand why people have a problem with Piccolo's line about Vegeta?
Outside of unknowns like transformations, special ability and hiding true power [Which a lot of times characters can not fully sense] Vegeta really hasn't misread his opponents.

[DiscountDabi]

“Vegeta has Never Been One to Misread an opponent’s strength”

Can this arc be over please? I don’t want to have to think about it anymore.

I agree that the arc overall has been mediocre to bad.
However, I don't understand why people have a problem with Piccolo's line about Vegeta?
Outside of unknowns like transformations, special ability and hiding true power [Which a lot of times characters can not fully sense] Vegeta really hasn't went at any of his opponents unprepared.

He really has though. I’m just gonna link this video and let it speak for itself https://youtu.be/5UeHMORYgQQ

[LoganForkHands73]

“Vegeta has Never Been One to Misread an opponent’s strength”

Can this arc be over please? I don’t want to have to think about it anymore.

I agree that the arc overall has been mediocre to bad.
However, I don't understand why people have a problem with Piccolo's line about Vegeta?
Outside of unknowns like transformations, special ability and hiding true power [Which a lot of times characters can not fully sense] Vegeta really hasn't went at any of his opponents unprepared.

He really has though. I’m just gonna link this video and let it speak for itself https://youtu.be/5UeHMORYgQQ

Fucksake Not a fan of Geekdom but that got me.

[BWri]

ToP Gohan wasn't as strong as you paint him to be. Both Kale and Caulifla were completely beaten and depleted of energy when they fused, resulting in a much weaker Kefla than if they fused when they were at their peak.
Kale was being beaten by the weaklings of U11 and had almost no energy at all, and Caulifla despite being better had received quite the beating at that point as well.

They had plenty of energy to spare as Kefla. Enough to be a cause of concern for the high tier fighters if their expressions and interest in her fight with Gohan are any indication. And since no one noted that her energy dropped significantly or noted any energy drop whatsoever, I can only assume that she was fighting, if not at full strength then close enough to it for the others to believe she was fully powered. Vados even called her "The Ultimate Warrior" and says that she may be "unmatched on this battlefield." I could grant you that Kefla is possibly weaker than she could be if both girls were healthy (even though there's no precedent for fusion working like this) but even so, they are strong enough for Vados to state that she is unmatched on the battlefield.

It's unclear where Piccolo and Gohan stand compared to a SSJBlue as of now because this last saga's writting has been a bit less precise than the rest of the manga until now, but I doubt he's even at SSJG levels of power in Toyotarou's head (despite him surviving attacks that should have killed a SSJGod in 1 hit).

Regards!

Piccolo is strong enough to believe that by self destructing in Moro's barrier that he can do great harm to Moro if not outright kill him. If he isn't SSG tier then I don't know what he is. But Piccolo has always been downplayed from Cell to the current arc. Piccolo is well past SSG tier in this arc. If we're talking about survival though, Moro admitted that he's keeping him alive to eat his life force. But we know at this point that anything lower than a peak ToP SSB isn't putting a dent on Moro even in his old form. And Piccolo believes he is capable of amping his self-destruct to this level at the bare minimum.

[TKA]

He really has though. I’m just gonna link this video and let it speak for itself https://youtu.be/5UeHMORYgQQ

I'm not watching some youtube video to get your point.

This speaks for itself.

But since I'm courteous, I'll quote it.

Would like to clear up something I've seen on twitter before it gets here (or it might've gotten here already; I've not read every post). Vegeta has only ever misjudged one character's strength.

1. He was stronger than everyone during the Saiyan arc. It was sneak attacks and combinations he could've never seen coming that made him lose.

2. On Namek, he judged correctly that he could and would beat Zarbon. He lost because he had no idea transformations existed, and that allowed Zarbon to stomp him.

3. He fully knew they were outclassed by Frieza, and told Frieza to transform because it was better they knew what they were up against. His only mistake was not realizing how many transformations Frieza had, or the degree to which each transformation made his power grow.

4. Based on his encounters with 19 and 20, he reasoned he could beat 17 and 18. He had a slight advantage over 18 in the early part of their fight until it came to light that 16, 17 and 18 have infinite energy and would never tire. She outlasted him. Again, he lost because of something he could've never predicted.

5. Cell. The usual happened where his opponent pulled something out he could've never seen coming, but he still completely misjudged Perfect Cell's strength and got wrecked for it. This is the only time he was a bad judge of strength.

6. He rightfully understood he couldn't beat Buu and sacrificed himself. His attack completely obliterated Buu. The only reason Buu didn't die was because he had insane regeneration that put Cell's to shame.

So while it might seem to be an incredibly dumb thing for Piccolo to say, if you analyze it he's pretty much correct. Still, it's a weird thing to throw out there when it isn't that obvious and would require a reader to go back and analyze stuff.

[DiscountDabi]

He really has though. I’m just gonna link this video and let it speak for itself https://youtu.be/5UeHMORYgQQ

I'm not watching some youtube video to get your point.

This speaks for itself.

But since I'm courteous, I'll quote it.

Would like to clear up something I've seen on twitter before it gets here (or it might've gotten here already; I've not read every post). Vegeta has only ever misjudged one character's strength.

1. He was stronger than everyone during the Saiyan arc. It was sneak attacks and combinations he could've never seen coming that made him lose.

2. On Namek, he judged correctly that he could and would beat Zarbon. He lost because he had no idea transformations existed, and that allowed Zarbon to stomp him.

3. He fully knew they were outclassed by Frieza, and told Frieza to transform because it was better they knew what they were up against. His only mistake was not realizing how many transformations Frieza had, or the degree to which each transformation made his power grow.

4. Based on his encounters with 19 and 20, he reasoned he could beat 17 and 18. He had a slight advantage over 18 in the early part of their fight until it came to light that 16, 17 and 18 have infinite energy and would never tire. She outlasted him. Again, he lost because of something he could've never predicted.

5. Cell. The usual happened where his opponent pulled something out he could've never seen coming, but he still completely misjudged Perfect Cell's strength and got wrecked for it. This is the only time he was a bad judge of strength.

6. He rightfully understood he couldn't beat Buu and sacrificed himself. His attack completely obliterated Buu. The only reason Buu didn't die was because he had insane regeneration that put Cell's to shame.

So while it might seem to be an incredibly dumb thing for Piccolo to say, if you analyze it he's pretty much correct. Still, it's a weird thing to throw out there when it isn't that obvious and would require a reader to go back and analyze stuff.

You would be generally correct. He doesn’t usually do that. But as with Cell, Goku Black, Toppo, Jiren, and Most Recently Moro himself on two accounts, Vegeta does indeed misread his opponents strength. Its worse because Piccolo said he’s “Never” been one to misread their strength.

[Tai Lung]

Toppo does get plenty of characterization, and even development both through his introductory chapters and the actual tournament. Toppo is a lot like Jiren in his overall value of life, not willing to secure victory at the potential cost of those he rescues, but is more than willing to sacrifice the other universes if it means his can survive. As his fights with Vegeta continues, he exhibits pride in that he, as a potential deity, shouldn't lose to Vegeta, who he refers to as a "lesser being." In the end though he accepts the fact he couldn't defeat Vegeta himself, and that he has to rely on Jiren to come through in the tournament. It's subtle, but that is development that takes place over several chapters.

-I mean, I can assume that with almost any character in the tournament is true ..
-he may be able to admire vegeta for his power that he has obtained that would make him look more noble in his role as hero but it is not explored because he wanted to be hakaishin

Humiliation is subjective, but whether she was or not, does it matter? She still showcased a good amount of strength and an impressive effort against Golden Frieza, a fighter who outmatched her in every possible sense.

As for the teamwork, I'm not sure if you need to be reminded of this, but Caulifla is a Saiyan. Saying the fact she wanted to fight on her own negates any camaraderie or teamwork is like saying Goku wanting to fight [Insert Villain Here] by himself negates any camaraderie or friendship he feels toward [Insert Friend/Family Here]. It doesn't. And the very second that Kale's life was on the line Caulifla stopped caring about that anyhow. She immediately teamed up with Cabba to stop Dyspo so he could save Kale.

If you are going to introduce a new character who is supposed to be a relevant warrior, the worst thing you can do is humiliate her in every battle ... If it were cabba, botamo or magetta that are not supposed to be important, I would accept it, but this ... not compensates even that it has damaged Frieza a little. sorry is my opinion

Alrighty, in order now.

Champa asked Cabba to find more Saiyan fighters. Why would Champa or Vados know better about who the strongest Saiyans are on Sadala than Cabba? Cabba is literally an elite member of Sadala's military, so it's well within reason he'd have that knowledge. Whis can't even say who the strongest fighters on Earth are. It's no different than Beerus and Whis relying on Goku.

I don't know maybe because vados was who the one that found cabba in the first place? it's the same planet caulifla is famous for her power etc
we must also remember that whis could find with his scepter all the saiyans of the earth

Kale has done a good job of hiding her strength from Caulifla, and only specifically Caulifla. All Cabba had to do was connect the dots when Kale took the pendant away from him before he powered down..

because there is the convenience that caulifla does not know how to feel the ki .. that is why she underestimated cabba and she lost against him but cabba can feel the ki the funny thing is that this is something that they goten and trunks can do easy

Vegeta saving Cabba is development on the bond that started in the U6 tournament. And it's something that also happened in the anime, so for all we know that might actually be a Toriyama plot point..

it happened in the anime but there they have a closer friendship until the promise to revive the other if one manages to win
it makes sense why vegeta wants to save him In any case cabba anime was not saved 3 times, Frieza eliminated it, playing with it a bit.

Caulifla and Kale didn't deny any interest in the Saiyans from U7, but Cabba already told them that they're far stronger, and this is a tournament for their lives. It isn't in the interest of Caulifla or Kale to get involved unless pursued, like Frieza had done. And the second that happened Caulifla nearly got knocked out, and Kale was still trying to hide her power. Keep in mind Cabba didn't interact with the U7 Saiyans either until Vegeta saved him.

that only works because you have goku harassing jiren at all times and vegeta only interested is in cabba or others warriors
the funny thing is that in the broly movie, he was genuinely interested in warriors from other universes by talking about them with emotion
also goku is currently more interested in his race especially showed interest in broly and even called himself with his name saiyan
according to believing that it is forced that they do not want to know each other .. the same piccolo with saonel and pirina
Doesn't it seem forced to they that including more saiyan and namekians but is only cabba meet vegeta?

Frieza was toying with them for fun until Kale's rampaged stopped him. Dyspo was about to knock Cabba out but Caulifla stopped him. Also Dyspo actually isn't implied to be any stronger than an SS2 in the manga, so "much stronger" is presumptive.

dyspo fights android 17
Android 17> Goku SSJ3

A lot of these points you've made don't really paint Cabba as some special guy or anything. He's literally just a normal character whose gone through efforts to help recruit strong members to his team, and then strived to aid them when things went south. He never portrayed any knowledge that one wouldn't expect him to have. The second new information is introduced (the legend of the "Legendary Saiyan") it's revealed to basically be common knowledge among Saiyans in that universe through Caulifla. He never exhibits strength beyond what would be expected of him, and manages to go out having given his best shot to save his universe by saving Kale.

ok i will only say that in my opinion it seems "forced" for a character that should be secondary by not contributing more in a battle is like the case of roshi

I didn't say it was a joke. Whether or not you dislike it, they served a purpose. Not every fighter of every universe was meant to be particularly important, and the same holds true for Universe 6. Saonel and Pilina were unimportant fighters, so they share a role with Magetta and get knocked out by Kale.

Likewise, Anilaza doesn't have to show anything. The visage of a gigantic fusion in and of itself implies strength. Kale knocking him out in a single blow is the distinctive image to imply how strong she's become..

I can understand the point but wasting a merger still seems to me a waste is the first time in DB that something like this has been seen

Huh? Why does it matter that "any Pride Trooper" can fulfill that role? It's most appropriate for Dyspo since Dyspo is the weakest of the main trio. It allowed Dyspo to remain wholly important despite his weakness compared to characters more on-par with Goku and Vegeta.
.

because it lacks individuality
in the anime they are "the big three"
in the manga they are jiren and his friends

.
Did I say Gohan wasn't special or didn't ever use transformations in the past? No. All I said was there's dichotomy between a half Saiyan who doesn't currently transform fighting against a character that's two full-blooded saiyans fused into one, utilizing their own specially strong transformation. Which is true.

it may be .. but it doesn't really characterize it as soon as we have seen it in that new facet

[Dragon Wukong]

-I mean, I can assume that with almost any character in the tournament is true ..

We see that behavior outside the tournament though, when Towale is being attacked by the crap monster. Which is why it's not an assumption, but a defined characteristic. And again, he has development throughout the tournament that shows a prideful side that ends in acceptance of his reliance on his comrade.

If you are going to introduce a new character who is supposed to be a relevant warrior, the worst thing you can do is humiliate her in every battle ... If it were cabba, botamo or magetta that are not supposed to be important, I would accept it, but this ... not compensates even that it has damaged Frieza a little. sorry is my opinion

She wasn't humiliated in every battle though? Frieza literally compliments her strength. Again, she also manages to hold back Dyspo so Cabba can save Kale. That in and of itself was an outright victory given the end result. That isn't a matter of opinion.

I don't know maybe because vados was who the one that found cabba in the first place? it's the same planet caulifla is famous for her power etc
we must also remember that whis could find with his scepter all the saiyans of the earth

Cabba is also a member of the universe's space patrol, and is implied to be known for that role his universe, not just on his planet. Again, if Champa wants more Saiyans, it's within reason to have Cabba seek them out.

Whis was also able to name all the remaining planets with life. The implication seems to be that he can gather some kind of data regarding how many of a certain life form, or life in general remain, but not the specifications beyond that. There's nothing that suggests angels have the ability to find the strongest of a certain life form, or that would've certainly come in handy before the Tournament of Power.

Again, if you have an issue with Cabba being the one to find Caulifla and Kale, you should also have an issue with Goku being the one to find participants on Earth. It's even more egregious, because Whis actually knows most of the people recruited on some personal level at the point of recruitment.

because there is the convenience that caulifla does not know how to feel the ki .. that is why she underestimated cabba and she lost against him but cabba can feel the ki the funny thing is that this is something that they goten and trunks can do easy

I mean it's not really that much of a convenience when most of the universe doesn't know how to feel ki. I honestly don't believe Cabba knows how to feel ki either. He didn't bring Kale along because he sensed her power, he brought her along because she stole an amulet from his hands while he was Super Saiyan. Heck, not a single Saiyan in U7 could sense ki before Goku was able to. Frieza still can't do it, at least in the manga.

that only works because you have goku harassing jiren at all times and vegeta only interested is in cabba or others warriors
the funny thing is that in the broly movie, he was genuinely interested in warriors from other universes by talking about them with emotion
also goku is currently more interested in his race especially showed interest in broly and even called himself with his name saiyan
according to believing that it is forced that they do not want to know each other .. the same piccolo with saonel and pirina
Doesn't it seem forced to they that including more saiyan and namekians but is only cabba meet vegeta?

You realize also that Goku ended up stepping in when he saw how strong Kale was to save Frieza right?

Anyhow, it's within reason if you don't like that certain characters didn't interact with each other during the tournament, but that doesn't affect the overarching developments or characterization for those characters, which is the main point of this debate. If something doesn't happen that's not "forced," it's the exact opposite of force, it's inaction. It can be argued that if Toyotaro suddenly tried to shove Goku into Caulifla's fight that'd be more forced than having them not interact at all. Likewise with Saonel and Pirina.

dyspo fights android 17
Android 17> Goku SSJ3

Dyspo also loses to 17, running away to try and help Toppo but noting himself that he doesn't have enough energy after a very brief battle to make it back to the arena. That fight doesn't say anything about Dyspo's strength, only that 17 is stronger than him. Possibly by quite a lot. But this becomes a strength discussion at this point, and there's another thread for that.

ok i will only say that in my opinion it seems "forced" for a character that should be secondary by not contributing more in a battle is like the case of roshi

His contributions by their very nature are secondary during the tournament. He's the support for Kale and Caulifla in the end. He's also the first Saiyan introduced from U6 and developed a rapport with Vegeta. I find it very strange that you'd rather his character were abandoned instead of used to supplement the newer U6 Saiyans.

because it lacks individuality
in the anime they are "the big three"
in the manga they are jiren and his friends

Jiren, Toppo, and Dyspo are altogether still the three most important members of the Pride Troopers. Dyspo's importance literally shines through his role as support for the others. He's actually the one who gets Jiren to turn tail and be careful when Dyspo points out they're dealing with an invisible fighter. When Toppo is in trouble Dyspo is the one who makes the save (or tries to in the end.)

It's ironic because you criticize Cabba having the same role for his own team as "forced" because it gave him a level of individual importance you felt he shouldn't have. A support role that shines via rescues or general aid for a team seemingly only provides individuality for a character when you don't like them.

Well I'm sorry, but if you take an issue with Cabba's aid in the tournament, even though Cabba was weak, then you have to accept that Dyspo was also an exceptional (and indeed, the third, possibly even second most important) member of his team through his actions, regardless of his strength.

it may be .. but it doesn't really characterize it as soon as we have seen it in that new facet

It's not about the characterization from that fact, itt's about a certain level of chemistry via the contrast (which is noted by Kefla herself.) At the very least it's not as though there's "nothing" from Gohan fighting Kefla, which was my point in bringing that up.

[DiscountDabi]

Also, and this something that I hadn’t thought about until recently. The Androids have no Ki to drain. But they do have life energy given by the fact that they can be wished back by the dragon balls. Something that couldn’t happen with the likes of 16.

So even though they have no Ki he could just as easily drain their life energy. That could be an explanation for why he won’t kill the androids either.

[SupremeKai25]

Did people forget about the Future Trunks arc? The second time Goku and co. went to the future, Vegeta, by his own admission, devised no plan at all to deal with Goku Black and Zamasu (knowing full well that one had Rosé and the other had immortality). Instead he simply rushed in to fight Black and got demolished again. So Piccolo is wrong, and by extension Toyotaro is wrong.

[MechaTrunks]

I don't think it's implied Fused Zamasu's immortality wasn't 100% until they were fused at a cellular level. The implication I got of that particular piece was the immortality extending itself to Goku Black when the fusion ended because he's also "Zamasu," leading to things going haywire and the regeneration extending itself to "separate pieces" of Zamasu, and restoring both Black and Zamasu to their fusion forms, as well as just regenerating any pieces lobbed off.

I do truly believe that had Zamasu been fully hakai'd before that point he would've regenerated just fine, because the idea that he might not be able to regenerate from some kind of damage isn't hinted at before that point.

Somehow the fact that they became fused at a celular level instead of just by the pothara earrings extended his regeneration outside his body (maybe because the pothara only influences the body that has the earrings, and once they became truly fused and not just through the pothara it's when that immortality kicked in for the separate pieces of Zamatsu's body. Since only hints are given, we can only especulate in reality).

I do truly believe that had Zamasu been fully hakai'd before that point he would've regenerated just fine, because the idea that he might not be able to regenerate from some kind of damage isn't hinted at before that point.

It's a possibility. Another one would be that he wouldn't have been able to regenerate instantly but that like it happened in the manga, the particles still had cells fusing at a celular level and so after some time lots of Zamasus would appear from those particles.
Beerus said that to deal with immortality they have other means than Hakay, so yeah, it seems that one way or another Zamatsu would've survived it with or without Mai.

They had plenty of energy to spare as Kefla. Enough to be a cause of concern for the high tier fighters if their expressions and interest in her fight with Gohan are any indication.

Kale by herself was already a concerning fighter, so it's only logical that a fusion between her and someone else wouldn't be taken lightly.

And since no one noted that her energy dropped significantly or noted any energy drop whatsoever, I can only assume that she was fighting, if not at full strength then close enough to it for the others to believe she was fully powered.

You can't note an energy drop because there was none. The energy drop was PRE-fusion and not afterwards.

Vados even called her "The Ultimate Warrior" and says that she may be "unmatched on this battlefield."

Someone hyping a character is not new, and the potential for Kefla was there. The hard facts coupled with the already established lore of the series point towards that hype not being valid there.
Gohan had problems with the trio of dangers, he may had reached Mystic levels of powers in the ToP but above that I can't see it.

Regards.

[emperior]

Did people forget about the Future Trunks arc? The second time Goku and co. went to the future, Vegeta, by his own admission, devised no plan at all to deal with Goku Black and Zamasu (knowing full well that one had Rosé and the other had immortality). Instead he simply rushed in to fight Black and got demolished again. So Piccolo is wrong, and by extension Toyotaro is wrong.

TKA has already extensively given a great answer to this whole dilemma, but let me add one thing: please, for the love of god, STOP bringing up anime-only stuff when talking about Piccolo’s line.
In the manga Piccolo also has no idea of the Future Trunks arc because he wasn’t involved.

And, again, he said “misread” not “underestimated”.
Vegeta can indeed read his opponents quite well but he’s so full of himself that he thinks himself to be better.
Piccolo’s line may not be perfectly accurate but it’s not super inaccurate either.

[Xeogran]

If Merus gets erased, I hope it will be more ceremonial than Grand Priest just making him disappear with a whim of his hand. I'd like it if he called all the 12 Angels to watch this. Or maybe even made Whis do it himself.

That moment, if it happens, has potential to be very dramatic. And they better not back off, because Merus using Angel ki in his gun is already breaking the rules.

[LoganForkHands73]

It sometimes works in reverse, though. In his first fight against Goku, he made a fatal miscalculation in overestimating Goku's strength towards the end of the fight, so he decided to go overkill by transforming into an Oozaru. Even if he was blindsided by the Kaioken, anyone with eyes could see that Goku was on his last legs after their beam struggle. Creating the fake moon was completely unnecessary besides making Goku suffer that extra bit and it ultimately led to his downfall.

Against Android 18, Vegeta was in the room when they were all expositing to each other about their status as Infinite Energy models. That should have been a clue that they were a bigger deal than the Pillsbury Doughbot and Grandpa Sawyer. But Vegeta was simply too arrogant from his Super Saiyan steroids and, let's face it, sexist to consider that she was far stronger than him and that the infinite stamina thing wasn't idle chatter. He was intent on totally ignoring Trunks' warnings, even when Trunks estimated that they were somehow stronger than the Androids from his timeline.

A big thing with Vegeta misreading his opponents comes down to his apparent inability to detect basic body language signals whenever he's in a confident mood. Android 18 was cool-headed throughout the whole fight and showed no reaction to any attack Vegeta threw at her, but he still persisted when it would have been more logical to retreat. Against 4th Form Freeza, it was the same deal. Freeza clearly treated the whole "fight" like child's play and was millions of times stronger than his last form, that itself was stronger than anything Vegeta could stand up to, but Vegeta genuinely thought he stood a chance just because of a piddly zenkai boost.

So while I don't hate Piccolo's line (I don't see how anyone seriously could, it's literally one slightly questionable comment, calm down), it is still quite funny.

[The Undying]

The last time I had this discussion, somebody was trying to extend Piccolo's statement to hidden abilities that Vegeta couldn't possibly have accounted for, even though Piccolo was clearly referring to how Vegeta tends to read his opponent's power at the moment. This person kept missing that point and was insistent that context didn't matter.

I don't think there's any way of resolving this squabble when there are so many instances of Vegeta's confidence being completely misplaced. It's just an odd (but not technically inaccurate) line of dialogue that caused more debate than it should have.

Did people forget about the Future Trunks arc? The second time Goku and co. went to the future, Vegeta, by his own admission, devised no plan at all to deal with Goku Black and Zamasu (knowing full well that one had Rosé and the other had immortality). Instead he simply rushed in to fight Black and got demolished again. So Piccolo is wrong, and by extension Toyotaro is wrong.

This isn't relevant to what Piccolo said.

Vegeta often "rushes in" to fight his opponents, even in circumstances where he's not necessarily convinced of his own superiority. He did it with Super Saiyan Black after Zamasu healed him, but wasn't aware that Black could still take advantage of zenkai after they already reached their natural limit with that method. He did it with Beerus in the Universe Survival arc. He did it with Moro after Moro absorbed Seven-Three.

None of these examples reflect misreading or underestimation. Vegeta flings himself headfirst into fights without regard for his well-being, even when he knows he might end up on the short end.