The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[FishermanJohnWest]

New Fights
Hypothetical anime 7/3 Moro runs the gauntlet. Can’t absorb his opponents energy and can’t copy their powers.

1. Merged Zamasu (no immortality)
Moro one-shots him

2. SSj 2 Kefla
Kefla gets one-shot effortlessly

3. GoD Toppo
Moro one-shots him easily

4. SsjB Vegito (Black)
Anime Vegito loses badly, manga Vegito depends on whether Moro surpassed Beerus

5. FP Broly
Depends if Moro surpassed Beerus or not

6. SsjB Gogeta (Broly)
Same as above, but Moro has to be a lot stronger then Beerus

7. LB Jiren
Moro easily wins no problem, even Omen suppressed > MUI from TOP based on feats and statements

8. MUI Goku (ToP, will last for the whole fight)
Goku loses even worse then Omen Goku does right now



Bonus Round

7/3 Moro vs all GoDs, at once? Can he win? Moro can use all his abilities at his disposal

If Moro surpasses Beerus, then he should be able to take on all of them like he did anyways.

[dragonball0900]

SSJ Rose Goku Black (at his max) vs Ultimate Gohan (Post ToP)

SSJ Rose Goku Black (at his max) vs Android 17 (Post ToP)

Two different matches. These are their anime versions. All at their strongest versions (Black when he was fighting SSB Vegeta in their rematch and Gohan and 17 at the end of the tournament). Who wins?

[Grand Marshal 1]

SSJ Rose Goku Black (at his max) vs Ultimate Gohan (Post ToP)

SSJ Rose Goku Black (at his max) vs Android 17 (Post ToP)

Two different matches. These are their anime versions. All at their strongest versions (Black when he was fighting SSB Vegeta in their rematch and Gohan and 17 at the end of the tournament). Who wins?

1) Even if Gohan is hinted to be near Blue tier by the ToP, I don't think he could face Enraged SSR Black. Black still has infinite potential and perhaps a psychological factor against Gohan, assuming this is based on Standard Battle Assumptioms, where everyone remains in-character.

2) Same for 17. Black was a high tier blue level threat. I can see him actually defeating Toppo. So yeah. 17+Gohan weren't that much for Toppo. Black takes. He can counter 17's stamina and infinite energy.

We gotta keep in mind that Enraged SSR Black overpowered Quake of Fury Blue Vegeta, who was near-stomping normal SSR Black. And then, Black with his scythe proved a match for both Goku and Vegeta in their strongest Blue states (OK Goku maybe unleashed his full potential only against Halo Merged Zamasu, but still).

[dragonball0900]

SSJ Rose Goku Black (at his max) vs Ultimate Gohan (Post ToP)

SSJ Rose Goku Black (at his max) vs Android 17 (Post ToP)

Two different matches. These are their anime versions. All at their strongest versions (Black when he was fighting SSB Vegeta in their rematch and Gohan and 17 at the end of the tournament). Who wins?

1) Even if Gohan is hinted to be near Blue tier by the ToP, I don't think he could face Enraged SSR Black. Black still has infinite potential and perhaps a psychological factor against Gohan, assuming this is based on Standard Battle Assumptioms, where everyone remains in-character.

2) Same for 17. Black was a high tier blue level threat. I can see him actually defeating Toppo. So yeah. 17+Gohan weren't that much for Toppo. Black takes. He can counter 17's stamina and infinite energy.

We gotta keep in mind that Enraged SSR Black overpowered Quake of Fury Blue Vegeta, who was near-stomping normal SSR Black. And then, Black with his scythe proved a match for both Goku and Vegeta in their strongest Blue states (OK Goku maybe unleashed his full potential only against Halo Merged Zamasu, but still).

Okay. And what about non enraged Black? The one that was losing against SSB Vegeta. Does Gohan/17 have any shot at him?

[Grand Marshal 1]

SSJ Rose Goku Black (at his max) vs Ultimate Gohan (Post ToP)

SSJ Rose Goku Black (at his max) vs Android 17 (Post ToP)

Two different matches. These are their anime versions. All at their strongest versions (Black when he was fighting SSB Vegeta in their rematch and Gohan and 17 at the end of the tournament). Who wins?

1) Even if Gohan is hinted to be near Blue tier by the ToP, I don't think he could face Enraged SSR Black. Black still has infinite potential and perhaps a psychological factor against Gohan, assuming this is based on Standard Battle Assumptioms, where everyone remains in-character.

2) Same for 17. Black was a high tier blue level threat. I can see him actually defeating Toppo. So yeah. 17+Gohan weren't that much for Toppo. Black takes. He can counter 17's stamina and infinite energy.

We gotta keep in mind that Enraged SSR Black overpowered Quake of Fury Blue Vegeta, who was near-stomping normal SSR Black. And then, Black with his scythe proved a match for both Goku and Vegeta in their strongest Blue states (OK Goku maybe unleashed his full potential only against Halo Merged Zamasu, but still).

Okay. And what about non enraged Black? The one that was losing against SSB Vegeta. Does Gohan/17 have any shot at him?

Normal Rose is still blue tier. Should scale as a God+ in the ToP. Since Gohan battled Dyspo, it's 50/50 he may take it. 17 can probably do so as well. But seeing how both characters react to True Golden Freeza's power, they may as well still lose to Black.

But they certainly have the strength to be on par with him, when in normal SSR.

[ZombieVito]

SSJ Rose Goku Black (at his max) vs Ultimate Gohan (Post ToP)

SSJ Rose Goku Black (at his max) vs Android 17 (Post ToP)

Two different matches. These are their anime versions. All at their strongest versions (Black when he was fighting SSB Vegeta in their rematch and Gohan and 17 at the end of the tournament). Who wins?

Black wins with ease both matches.

I also agree that he would beat normal Toppo but that fight would have been the hardest he would have faced.

[ZodiacBeast]

Super Perfect Cell and Fifth Form Cooler fusion (with Cooler's strength matched to Cell) vs. each of the Buus individually.

How many Buus does Celler (ugh) get through, if any?

[Peach]

SSJ Rose Goku Black (at his max) vs Ultimate Gohan (Post ToP)

SSJ Rose Goku Black (at his max) vs Android 17 (Post ToP)

Two different matches. These are their anime versions. All at their strongest versions (Black when he was fighting SSB Vegeta in their rematch and Gohan and 17 at the end of the tournament). Who wins?

1. Goku Black

Gohan got one hit ko'd Kaio-ken by Goku a few episodes after that saga. That's a good indicator of Gohan's endurance vs. that level of power.

2. 17

Goku Black would be lucky to survive the attacks 17 used to hurt Jiren. What can Goku Black do if 17 can tank Jiren attacks meant for SSBE Vegeta?

Super Perfect Cell and Fifth Form Cooler fusion (with Cooler's strength matched to Cell) vs. each of the Buus individually.

How many Buus does Celler (ugh) get through, if any?

I think they could beat Fat Buu or Gray Buu.

Super Buu, Buff Buu, and Kid Buu, probably not. That regeneration and candy beam is OP. And they're not smart enough to do a barrier if they got absorbed.

[dragonball0900]

SSJ Rose Goku Black (at his max) vs Ultimate Gohan (Post ToP)

SSJ Rose Goku Black (at his max) vs Android 17 (Post ToP)

Two different matches. These are their anime versions. All at their strongest versions (Black when he was fighting SSB Vegeta in their rematch and Gohan and 17 at the end of the tournament). Who wins?

1. Goku Black

Gohan got one hit ko'd Kaio-ken by Goku a few episodes after that saga. That's a good indicator of Gohan's endurance vs. that level of power.

2. 17

Goku Black would be lucky to survive the attacks 17 used to hurt Jiren. What can Goku Black do if 17 can tank Jiren attacks meant for SSBE Vegeta?

But that's Kaioken x2 level. That's two times stronger than the normal blue level. It's obvious that Gohan would lose that way.

17 is equal to Gohan. The episode literally stated that Jiren was off guard when 17 made that attack. I'm sure if Gohan did an attack like that, he would also be able to scratch Jiren the same way 17 did.

Using your logic, 17 would be far above SSB Goku/Vegeta and Golden Frieza since he managed to tank attacks from Jiren far better than the latter. It's obvious that that fight had plenty of terrible inconsistencies with its power scaling. Let's not forget that for a moment SSB Goku was also able to tank attacks from the same Jiren that was beating SSBE Vegeta, before he used Kaioken.

17 is not that strong. He is stated to be Gohan level by the writers. The only thing 17 has that Gohan doesn't is his infinite stamina and his barrier. 17 literally used that barrier plenty of times, which is another reason why he lasted that long in the tournament. I agree that he would win against Gohan on a fight based on those attributes and THOSE attributes only. It doesn't mean that 17 is that strong in terms of raw power.

[ZombieVito]

SSJ Rose Goku Black (at his max) vs Ultimate Gohan (Post ToP)

SSJ Rose Goku Black (at his max) vs Android 17 (Post ToP)

Two different matches. These are their anime versions. All at their strongest versions (Black when he was fighting SSB Vegeta in their rematch and Gohan and 17 at the end of the tournament). Who wins?

1. Goku Black

Gohan got one hit ko'd Kaio-ken by Goku a few episodes after that saga. That's a good indicator of Gohan's endurance vs. that level of power.

2. 17

Goku Black would be lucky to survive the attacks 17 used to hurt Jiren. What can Goku Black do if 17 can tank Jiren attacks meant for SSBE Vegeta?

Super Perfect Cell and Fifth Form Cooler fusion (with Cooler's strength matched to Cell) vs. each of the Buus individually.

How many Buus does Celler (ugh) get through, if any?

I think they could beat Fat Buu or Gray Buu.

Super Buu, Buff Buu, and Kid Buu, probably not. That regeneration and candy beam is OP. And they're not smart enough to do a barrier if they got absorbed.

But 17 is weaker than Gohan.

17 only managed to "hurt" Jiren because he caught him off guard. Anyone can damage someone by getting them off guard. Just look at Piccolo beating Ultimate Gohan on E88.

[Peach]

SSJ Rose Goku Black (at his max) vs Ultimate Gohan (Post ToP)

SSJ Rose Goku Black (at his max) vs Android 17 (Post ToP)

Two different matches. These are their anime versions. All at their strongest versions (Black when he was fighting SSB Vegeta in their rematch and Gohan and 17 at the end of the tournament). Who wins?

1. Goku Black

Gohan got one hit ko'd Kaio-ken by Goku a few episodes after that saga. That's a good indicator of Gohan's endurance vs. that level of power.

2. 17

Goku Black would be lucky to survive the attacks 17 used to hurt Jiren. What can Goku Black do if 17 can tank Jiren attacks meant for SSBE Vegeta?

Super Perfect Cell and Fifth Form Cooler fusion (with Cooler's strength matched to Cell) vs. each of the Buus individually.

How many Buus does Celler (ugh) get through, if any?

I think they could beat Fat Buu or Gray Buu.

Super Buu, Buff Buu, and Kid Buu, probably not. That regeneration and candy beam is OP. And they're not smart enough to do a barrier if they got absorbed.

But 17 is weaker than Gohan.

17 only managed to "hurt" Jiren because he caught him off guard. Anyone can damage someone by getting them off guard. Just look at Piccolo beating Ultimate Gohan on E88.

17 hurt Jiren more than once. When he tackled him and brought him to his knees, Jiren was totally on guard. These kind of attacks would be lethal to Goku Black.

And 17 is not weaker than Gohan. He showed stronger durability than Gohan and Frieza, the latter got jobbed by Top and Jiren. Super Saiyan Blue Evolution is the type of power that would have knocked out Gohan (SSB kk did), but 17 is tanking attacks meant for Vegeta by Jiren lol.

But that's Kaioken x2 level. That's two times stronger than the normal blue level. It's obvious that Gohan would lose that way.

17 is equal to Gohan. The episode literally stated that Jiren was off guard when 17 made that attack. I'm sure if Gohan did an attack like that, he would also be able to scratch Jiren the same way 17 did.

Using your logic, 17 would be far above SSB Goku/Vegeta and Golden Frieza since he managed to tank attacks from Jiren far better than the latter. It's obvious that that fight had plenty of terrible inconsistencies with its power scaling. Let's not forget that for a moment SSB Goku was also able to tank attacks from the same Jiren that was beating SSBE Vegeta, before he used Kaioken.

17 is not that strong. He is stated to be Gohan level by the writers. The only thing 17 has that Gohan doesn't is his infinite stamina and his barrier. 17 literally used that barrier plenty of times, which is another reason why he lasted that long in the tournament. I agree that he would win against Gohan on a fight based on those attributes and THOSE attributes only. It doesn't mean that 17 is that strong in terms of raw power.

Goku says in the manga that 17 is just as strong as him. His onscreen feats in the anime support this.

That random Toei writer completely contradicts what is depicted on screen in the anime and manga. I've said my piece. I've said why. This is all opinion. Quit busting my balls.

[dragonball0900]

Goku says in the manga that 17 is just as strong as him. His onscreen feats in the anime support this.

That random Toei writer completely contradicts what is depicted on screen in the anime and manga. I've said my piece. I've said why. This is all opinion. Quit busting my balls.

Yet Gohan was called "the strongest man on Earth besides Goku and Vegeta" in the Moro Saga...

17 is not as strong as you think in both anime and manga (SPECIALLY in the manga). All of his "feats" in the anime contradict where he actually is. Jiren was caught off guard, blatantly and definitely stated in the episode. The scenes where he could tank attacks from a much stronger Jiren are all the symbol of bad writing (that's typical from Toei's anime). And that statement in the manga of "about as strong as us" also contradicts what happens in the manga. 17 has NO feats in the manga that puts him "equal" to Gohan, much less SSB Goku, Vegeta or Golden Frieza.

On the contrary, 17 was blatantly shown to be a not so strong fighter, specially in this current Moro Saga. Even Piccolo is now stronger than him. 17 has no business against Gohan in the manga. And in the anime, we clearly have one writer saying they are equals. The anime and the manga are both different continuities. That's why.

Anime: Gohan = 17 (with 17 having the edge with infinite stamina and barrier) < Goku, Vegeta and Frieza

Manga: 17 < Gohan < Goku, Vegeta and Frieza

[ZombieVito]

1. Goku Black

Gohan got one hit ko'd Kaio-ken by Goku a few episodes after that saga. That's a good indicator of Gohan's endurance vs. that level of power.

2. 17

Goku Black would be lucky to survive the attacks 17 used to hurt Jiren. What can Goku Black do if 17 can tank Jiren attacks meant for SSBE Vegeta?



I think they could beat Fat Buu or Gray Buu.

Super Buu, Buff Buu, and Kid Buu, probably not. That regeneration and candy beam is OP. And they're not smart enough to do a barrier if they got absorbed.

But 17 is weaker than Gohan.

17 only managed to "hurt" Jiren because he caught him off guard. Anyone can damage someone by getting them off guard. Just look at Piccolo beating Ultimate Gohan on E88.

17 hurt Jiren more than once. When he tackled him and brought him to his knees, Jiren was totally on guard. These kind of attacks would be lethal to Goku Black.

And 17 is not weaker than Gohan. He showed stronger durability than Gohan and Frieza, the latter got jobbed by Top and Jiren. Super Saiyan Blue Evolution is the type of power that would have knocked out Gohan (SSB kk did), but 17 is tanking attacks meant for Vegeta by Jiren lol.

But that's Kaioken x2 level. That's two times stronger than the normal blue level. It's obvious that Gohan would lose that way.

17 is equal to Gohan. The episode literally stated that Jiren was off guard when 17 made that attack. I'm sure if Gohan did an attack like that, he would also be able to scratch Jiren the same way 17 did.

Using your logic, 17 would be far above SSB Goku/Vegeta and Golden Frieza since he managed to tank attacks from Jiren far better than the latter. It's obvious that that fight had plenty of terrible inconsistencies with its power scaling. Let's not forget that for a moment SSB Goku was also able to tank attacks from the same Jiren that was beating SSBE Vegeta, before he used Kaioken.

17 is not that strong. He is stated to be Gohan level by the writers. The only thing 17 has that Gohan doesn't is his infinite stamina and his barrier. 17 literally used that barrier plenty of times, which is another reason why he lasted that long in the tournament. I agree that he would win against Gohan on a fight based on those attributes and THOSE attributes only. It doesn't mean that 17 is that strong in terms of raw power.

Goku says in the manga that 17 is just as strong as him. His onscreen feats in the anime support this.

That random Toei writer completely contradicts what is depicted on screen in the anime and manga. I've said my piece. I've said why. This is all opinion. Quit busting my balls.

Eh, no. All 17's attacks that landed against Jiren where off guard or when Jiren was heavily damaged.

Also durability does not equal power. Besides this is a tournament where people can't kill. Jiren needs to hold back against every opponent he fights to not kill them.

I'm baffled people forget this is a no kill tournament.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Even if 17 is equal to Blue Goku in the early ToP (17 absolutely 'trembles' in the face of a weakened TGolden Freeza, calling him a monster) he still loses to Black.

Even if we say that Gohan = 17 and the 2 can be defeated only by KK Blue, Black still accessed a level of power when Enraged in which he didn't even have to face 2 rage boosted SSBs himself.

Merged Zamasu was a bad move tbh. He said it himself earlier in the arc. He had no need for immortality, his strength was more than enough. And the difference with Halo Merged Zamasu was that he could battle 2 SSBs on his own (further proving that Future Zamasu was never Blue tier, but Ill let that sink in).

So 17 can't defeat Black. Again, Black should scale to Full power Toppo. Someone who could probably defeat TGolden Freeza. Although it would be his toughest fight yet, as Zombievito said, he would still have a chance to win.

When 17 and Gohan could never overpower Toppo.

[ZombieVito]

Merged Zamasu was a bad move tbh.

Was it really? Thanks to the fusion Infinite Zamasu was able to be born.

To this day it still is the most OP villain in the whole franchise.

[SupremeKai25]

They didn't need to fuse in the first place, once he got the scythe Goku Black was much stronger than anyone else on the battlefield. If I'm not mistaken a Toei producer even said Black was the strongest non-fused character (ignoring the GoDs and angels ofc).

[Grand Marshal 1]

They didn't need to fuse in the first place, once he got the scythe Goku Black was much stronger than anyone else on the battlefield. If I'm not mistaken a Toei producer even said Black was the strongest non-fused character (ignoring the GoDs and angels ofc).

That's why I personally think Merged Zamasu was a mistake. Okay immortality is cool, but I think that Black's ability to grow was hindered by Zamasu.

After Black got Enraged, I think the next step would be him Power Stressing Rose somehow, either by powering up or using the Kaio Ken, who knows.

Rose evolution? Nah, maybe a different path. But he would reach GoD tier on his own I'm sure. No need for Merged Zamasu.

[Draconic]

Koichi is a reliable guy,

lol comment of the year

[SupremeKai25]

They didn't need to fuse in the first place, once he got the scythe Goku Black was much stronger than anyone else on the battlefield. If I'm not mistaken a Toei producer even said Black was the strongest non-fused character (ignoring the GoDs and angels ofc).

That's why I personally think Merged Zamasu was a mistake. Okay immortality is cool, but I think that Black's ability to grow was hindered by Zamasu.

After Black got Enraged, I think the next step would be him Power Stressing Rose somehow, either by powering up or using the Kaio Ken, who knows.

Rose evolution? Nah, maybe a different path. But he would reach GoD tier on his own I'm sure. No need for Merged Zamasu.

I still find it weird that Black never used kaio-ken. Not only did he inherit a lot of Goku's abilities, as well as his memories (so he would've known that Goku had this ability), but he was originally a North Kai -- just like the creator of that technique.

Rosé Goku Black with Kaio-ken x20 would definitely be GoD tier. Maybe around the level of Super Saiyan Kefla or Hakai Toppo.

[Grand Marshal 1]

They didn't need to fuse in the first place, once he got the scythe Goku Black was much stronger than anyone else on the battlefield. If I'm not mistaken a Toei producer even said Black was the strongest non-fused character (ignoring the GoDs and angels ofc).

That's why I personally think Merged Zamasu was a mistake. Okay immortality is cool, but I think that Black's ability to grow was hindered by Zamasu.

After Black got Enraged, I think the next step would be him Power Stressing Rose somehow, either by powering up or using the Kaio Ken, who knows.

Rose evolution? Nah, maybe a different path. But he would reach GoD tier on his own I'm sure. No need for Merged Zamasu.

I still find it weird that Black never used kaio-ken. Not only did he inherit a lot of Goku's abilities, as well as his memories (so he would've known that Goku had this ability), but he was originally a North Kai -- just like the creator of that technique.

Rosé Goku Black with Kaio-ken x20 would definitely be GoD tier. Maybe around the level of Super Saiyan Kefla or Hakai Toppo.

I would say only Overloaded SS2 Kefla reaches that tier

Clearly up to anyone's scaling tho

Rose KK×100 Goku Black. Now that's an above GoD tier.