Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Magnificent Ponta]

Jiren mentions that Goku's self-damaging Kaio-Ken-esque power can't be wielded properly, and says that's the same mistake as Kale made. So here's a question: how much of Kefla's overall boost in power would you guys judge is just likely to be the normal by-product of fusion, and how much is down to her power not being as self-damaging as it was for Kale?

[Xeno Goku Black]

So strong do people think Piccolo is now? Too much to say he's surpassed Android 17? Despite the better showing he's had lately especially with Saganbo.

[Miracles]

There is no way to tell how strong Piccolo is. Since "feats" are usually based off of the audience own tunnel vision interpretation.
The story's intent wasn't to make a comparison between Piccolo and 17. 17 and 18 were used solely for a narrative purpose against 7-3. Their energy could not be absorbed when Moro's technique was used. To even question if Piccolo is stronger than 17, who was literally stated to be about as strong as Goku and Vegeta two arcs ago is kinda out of bounds.

[The Undying]

So here's a question: how much of Kefla's overall boost in power would you guys judge is just likely to be the normal by-product of fusion, and how much is down to her power not being as self-damaging as it was for Kale?

The dialogue implies that Kefla's power mainly stems from Kale's power, only wielded properly this time.

Goku explained that some Potara gains can be minimal or even diminishing back when he mulled over fusing with Mr. Satan in the original manga. The gap between Caulifla and Kale is pretty damn big, and Vados did mention that Kefla possesses Kale's raw power combined with Caulifla's fighting prowess.

I don't think the strength difference between Kale and Kefla is supposed to be that significant.

[ankokudaishogun]

Goku explained that some Potara gains can be minimal or even diminishing back when he mulled over fusing with Mr. Satan in the original manga.

to be fair, he didn't know anything about Potara, so he is to be taken as unreliable narrator.

[ZombieVito]

So strong do people think Piccolo is now? Too much to say he's surpassed Android 17? Despite the better showing he's had lately especially with Saganbo.

No way of knowing but at the very least I can't see this Piccolo getting beat by Frost again.

[Hugo Boss]

So strong do people think Piccolo is now? Too much to say he's surpassed Android 17? Despite the better showing he's had lately especially with Saganbo.

In the chapter 58, Goku said he barely recognized Gohan and Piccolo’s current strength. It seems a callback to when Piccolo asked him about his chances against Cell. While Piccolo made impressive gains, he was still weaker than Super Saiyan Goku. So, perhaps Piccolo surpassed Super Saiyan Blue old level, but is still quite behind current Super Saiyan Blue level? Gohan was already close to that level before his training, so it doesn’t seem too farfetched. Since they trained together, it’s possible Piccolo’s potential was further increased. I have the impression 17 and 18 are very close to each other as well, with Gohan and Piccolo a step ahead.

[Dragon Wukong]

to be fair, he didn't know anything about Potara, so he is to be taken as unreliable narrator.

Maybe, but both Fused Zamasu in the manga and Kefla in the manga support this notion. Fused Zamasu was just able to spam the full power of his SSGSS via stamina regen (which makes him equal to SSGSS Goku when he doesn't have to worry about his power diminishing,) and Kefla seems to just have Kale's strength.

That implies there isn't really much of a boost when someone beyond the god tiers like Kale or Black fuses with someone below the strength of an SS2 like Caulifla or Zamasu.

[ZombieVito]

to be fair, he didn't know anything about Potara, so he is to be taken as unreliable narrator.

Maybe, but both Fused Zamasu in the manga and Kefla in the manga support this notion. Fused Zamasu was just able to spam the full power of his SSGSS via stamina regen (which makes him equal to SSGSS Goku when he doesn't have to worry about his power diminishing,) and Kefla seems to just have Kale's strength.

That implies there isn't really much of a boost when someone beyond the god tiers like Kale or Black fuses with someone below the strength of an SS2 like Caulifla or Zamasu.

But it was never implied Zamasu used a completed Rose.

[Thani]

He didn't, but Completed Super Saiyan Blue is described as "just" the full power of the transformation. Because, in the manga, the form's full power is only usable in the first burst, and then it rapidly plummets. In theory, because he was immortal and never got tired, Fused Zamasu had access to the full power of Black's Rosé form, which is essentialy the same as Blue. It matches with Zamasu being "only" equal, more or less, with Goku's CSSB, despite being a Potara Fusion.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Because, in the manga, the form's full power is only usable in the first burst, and then it rapidly plummets.

Didn't work that way for Goku Black and Rose.

[Dragon Wukong]

Because, in the manga, the form's full power is only usable in the first burst, and then it rapidly plummets.

Didn't work that way for Goku Black and Rose.

We can assume to some extent it did work that way for Black, because Black fails to do well against the full power bursts of Vegeta's SSG/Blue switching, and Vegeta outright states during Goku's bout with Fused Zamasu that he's using up stamina to exert full power bursts before regenerating to match Goku's strength.

But it was never implied Zamasu used a completed Rose.

What Thani said, basically. Completed SSGSS isn't actually stronger than SSGSS, it's just being able to use the full strength SSB already had without losing strength. So long as Zamasu has access to SSGSS and restorative immortality, there's no reason he can't effectively do the same thing without containing the aura in his body. This is why him and Goku are effectively even.

[The Undying]

to be fair, he didn't know anything about Potara, so he is to be taken as unreliable narrator.

I'm thinking about this in narrative terms. It would have been odd for Toriyama to include such specific dialogue as "it would be like a power of 1000 rising to 1001" if not to convey to the reader that a potential fusion with Satan would have been worthless.

We can safely assume it provides such an enormous boost for Goku and Vegeta because they're compatible fighters, essentially equal in the same forms.

[ZombieVito]

What Thani said, basically. Completed SSGSS isn't actually stronger than SSGSS, it's just being able to use the full strength SSB already had without losing strength. So long as Zamasu has access to SSGSS and restorative immortality, there's no reason he can't effectively do the same thing without containing the aura in his body. This is why him and Goku are effectively even.

That doesn't make any sense.

Merged Zamasu is confirmed to have gotten stronger so Goku shouldn't be equal to him since Black was already stronger than Goku. Zamasus' stamina is also noted in the manga to not recover automatically, Zamasu needs to do it himself so that plus never even implying he was using a perfected SSR means it simply isn't the case. Completed Blue is also treated like a different form later on.

Goku being able to compete with a fusion of himself and another person is idiotic to me. Completed Blue has to have a boost over regular Blue.

[Dragon Wukong]

That doesn't make any sense.

Merged Zamasu is confirmed to have gotten stronger so Goku shouldn't be equal to him since Black was already stronger than Goku. Zamasus' stamina is also noted in the manga to not recover automatically, Zamasu needs to do it himself so that plus never even implying he was using a perfected SSR means it simply isn't the case. Completed Blue is also treated like a different form later on.

Goku being able to compete with a fusion of himself and another person is idiotic to me. Completed Blue has to have a boost over regular Blue.

Fused Zamasu is stronger than Black sure, but again, that's mainly because his regen allows him to use SSGSS at full strength without much issue. Vegeta only notes that Zamasu has to start focusing on his regen because Goku was making him struggle. Completed Blue might be treated "different" but the description of it, be it through Vegeta's dialogue or in VJump or whatever, consistently states that it isn't stronger than SSB, but rather it's only SSB's full power, but constant. The increase in strength doesn't happen until Vegeta evolves it during the Tournament of Power.

It can seem idiotic to you, but it really isn't if you consider how Goku viewed fusing with Mr. Satan as inconsequential. The gap between SSGSS Black and Zamasu may very well be just as large. Keep in mind, it was originally Toriyama's idea that Goku and Vegeta teaming up alone would be enough to take on Fused Zamasu (as well as Goku ultimately facing him alone), so the idea of potara fusion being relatively minor given a large enough power gap is likely consistent with his views as the author.

[ZombieVito]

Fused Zamasu is stronger than Black sure, but again, that's mainly because his regen allows him to use SSGSS at full strength without much issue. Vegeta only notes that Zamasu has to start focusing on his regen because Goku was making him struggle. Completed Blue might be treated "different" but the description of it, be it through Vegeta's dialogue or in VJump or whatever, consistently states that it isn't stronger than SSB, but rather it's only SSB's full power, but constant. The increase in strength doesn't happen until Vegeta evolves it during the Tournament of Power.

It can seem idiotic to you, but it really isn't if you consider how Goku viewed fusing with Mr. Satan as inconsequential. The gap between SSGSS Black and Zamasu may very well be just as large. Keep in mind, it was originally Toriyama's idea that Goku and Vegeta teaming up alone would be enough to take on Fused Zamasu (as well as Goku ultimately facing him alone), so the idea of potara fusion being relatively minor given a large enough power gap is likely consistent with his views as the author.

It still doesn't add up. Goku shouldn't be able to stalemate Zamasu like that. Merged Zamasu is stronger than Goku Black who was already stronger than Goku.

Also Zamasu's entire dialogue in chapter 23 doesn't make sense if the boost of the portara is that small. It is treated as a significant one.

P.S. After reading chapter 27 again, Beerus does say Vegeta "Improved a bit" after activating CSSB. If the forms have equal multipliers then this wouldn't make sense. Whis also called it a different form.

[Dragon Wukong]

It still doesn't add up. Goku shouldn't be able to stalemate Zamasu like that. Merged Zamasu is stronger than Goku Black who was already stronger than Goku.

Also Zamasu's entire dialogue in chapter 23 doesn't make sense if the boost of the portara is that small. It is treated as a significant one.

P.S. After reading chapter 27 again, Beerus does say Vegeta "Improved a bit" after activating CSSB. If the forms have equal multipliers then this wouldn't make sense. Whis also called it a different form.

For one, technically, Goku Black never fought Goku in the manga. Secondly, as I said, it's implied his Rose form suffers the same delayed strength drop-off Goku and Vegeta suffer in SSB. (Though whether or not it's to the same extent can be somewhat debated at least.) Goku can stalemate Fused Zamasu because ultimately a majority of Zamasu's strength comes from Goku. Zamasu's contribution to the fusion wasn't strength, but immortality, Kai magic, and the dialogue in chapter 23 implies that the fusion of "two of [him]" improved control over his body. Even Zamasu's comments over his own power can be read as him no longer being bound by the loss in strength tied to SSGSS, and excitement over his newfound, constant strength.

Again, the improvement comment is from the fact that normally after going SSB there's only a short moment before the form has a drop in power. The "improvement" is that there is no longer a drop in power. There's no debating this particular bit really. It's stated both in and outside the manga.

[ZombieVito]

It still doesn't add up. Goku shouldn't be able to stalemate Zamasu like that. Merged Zamasu is stronger than Goku Black who was already stronger than Goku.

Also Zamasu's entire dialogue in chapter 23 doesn't make sense if the boost of the portara is that small. It is treated as a significant one.

P.S. After reading chapter 27 again, Beerus does say Vegeta "Improved a bit" after activating CSSB. If the forms have equal multipliers then this wouldn't make sense. Whis also called it a different form.

For one, technically, Goku Black never fought Goku in the manga. Secondly, as I said, it's implied his Rose form suffers the same delayed strength drop-off Goku and Vegeta suffer in SSB. (Though whether or not it's to the same extent can be somewhat debated at least.) Goku can stalemate Fused Zamasu because ultimately a majority of Zamasu's strength comes from Goku. Zamasu's contribution to the fusion wasn't strength, but immortality, Kai magic, and the dialogue in chapter 23 implies that the fusion of "two of [him]" improved control over his body. Even Zamasu's comments over his own power can be read as him no longer being bound by the loss in strength tied to SSGSS, and excitement over his newfound, constant strength.

Again, the improvement comment is from the fact that normally after going SSB there's only a short moment before the form has a drop in power. The "improvement" is that there is no longer a drop in power. There's no debating this particular bit really. It's stated both in and outside the manga.

It's irrelevant if Black never fought him. The Goku body he stole was from the future so it's stronger. And again, Merged Zamasu was stated to be stronger than before so Goku shouldn't stalemate him at all.

Also Zamasu never even comments about losing power or having constant strength now. He literally screams of joy because of his new power. Something that makes no sense if it's not so different than Blacks (Going from 1000 to 1001).

The Beerus fight it's a clear example of how a horrible writer Toyo is. Vegeta should have performed exactly the same at the beginning of the fight as when he activates CSSB but he doesn't. There's a clear difference in power from the first punch he does all the way until he uses CSSB.

[Dragon Wukong]

It's irrelevant if Black never fought him. The Goku body he stole was from the future so it's stronger. And again, Merged Zamasu was stated to be stronger than before so Goku shouldn't stalemate him at all.

Also Zamasu never even comments about losing power or having constant strength now. He literally screams of joy because of his new power. Something that makes no sense if it's not so different than Blacks (Going from 1000 to 1001).

The Beerus fight it's a clear example of how a horrible writer Toyo is. Vegeta should have performed exactly the same at the beginning of the fight as when he activates CSSB but he doesn't. There's a clear difference in power from the first punch he does all the way until he uses CSSB.

It's Goku's body stolen from a timeline where the Tournament of Power likely never happened (because 2 zenos is why it happened in the first place in the manga.) Goku and Vegeta didn't get any stronger after 3 years of training in the Hyperbolic time chamber. I doubt one more year without any threats would've made much of a difference after the U6 tournament. It's a safe assumption that Goku Black's full strength would be on par with Goku's himself.

It's within reason to interpret Zamasu's lines as the strength he can maintain thanks to his regeneration, which would otherwise have been impossible for him to make use of beforehand. The increase can still be a lot compared to what Black was able to maintain, if we compare it to Vegeta's inability to maintain the form in the U6 tournament.

Beerus' fight in that chapter isn't actually inconsistent. I re-read it, and Beerus actually comments upon how the initial blow is magnificent. Again, the initial burst of strength is notable to Beerus. And once Vegeta is able to maintain that strength for an extended duration of time, then Beerus comments on Vegeta's improvement. There's nothing to indicate that Vegeta's blows have gotten stronger compared to that initial blow either, only that during this fight he managed to land one of those blows on Beerus' face. I wouldn't say that fight makes Toyotaro a "horrible writer."

[ZombieVito]

It's Goku's body stolen from a timeline where the Tournament of Power likely never happened (because 2 zenos is why it happened in the first place in the manga.) Goku and Vegeta didn't get any stronger after 3 years of training in the Hyperbolic time chamber. I doubt one more year without any threats would've made much of a difference after the U6 tournament. It's a safe assumption that Goku Black's full strength would be on par with Goku's himself.

It's within reason to interpret Zamasu's lines as the strength he can maintain thanks to his regeneration, which would otherwise have been impossible for him to make use of beforehand. The increase can still be a lot compared to what Black was able to maintain, if we compare it to Vegeta's inability to maintain the form in the U6 tournament.

Beerus' fight in that chapter isn't actually inconsistent. I re-read it, and Beerus actually comments upon how the initial blow is magnificent. Again, the initial burst of strength is notable to Beerus. And once Vegeta is able to maintain that strength for an extended duration of time, then Beerus comments on Vegeta's improvement. There's nothing to indicate that Vegeta's blows have gotten stronger compared to that initial blow either, only that during this fight he managed to land one of those blows on Beerus' face. I wouldn't say that fight makes Toyotaro a "horrible writer."

What are you talking about, they never said they wouldn't get any stronger. Just not by a lot. You are again also ignoring the fact that the fusion boosted his power as well, this is confirmed by Goku. There's no way Goku could have stalemate him without CSBB giving him more power on top of regular Blue. Goku Black would also need to be weaker than Goku to compensate for the fusion boost and that honestly is dumb considering that SS Black overpowered a fully restored Blue Vegeta and SSR Black is even stronger than that Black.

The dialogue simply doesn't support what you are saying. Zamasu speaks about his power like it's something new to him, something he never expected to get from portara fusion. It would have been a different story if he said something like "I can finally mantain this power" or "I have no more drawbacks" but he never did.

So normal Blue can only output full power for seconds? This directly conflicts with RoF since Goku manages to outlast Golden Freeza. Does Golden Freeza output full power for 1 second? Ridiculous lol. Also Beerus expression says it all. It's not until Vegeta uses CSSB that it changes as he gets pressured.

Toyo is a horrible writer and the huge amounts of incosistencies in his manga is proof of that but I can clearly see you are a fan of the manga so frankly that discussion is a waste of time.