Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Grand Marshal 1]

What Zombievito refers to (in my understanding) is that Black's Rose is his counterpart to Blue. Which means there is a Perfected Rose, which compresses its aura like Blue for more power.

Not sure if Rose functions exactly like Blue on that aspect though.

Either way : Perfected/Full Potential SSR Black (hypothetical) > Perfected Blue

Which would make sense. Issue here being, can Black access that kind of power in the first place?

Or its possible that Rose functions in such a way that it always is at 100%, despite the aura, like with Blue's burst full potential.

I don't remember if the Manga makes it evident that Rose > Blue in efficiency, energy restoration and potential.

[ZombieVito]

What Zombievito refers to (in my understanding) is that Black's Rose is his counterpart to Blue. Which means there is a Perfected Rose, which compresses its aura like Blue for more power.

Not sure if Rose functions exactly like Blue on that aspect though.

Either way : Perfected/Full Potential SSR Black (hypothetical) > Perfected Blue

Which would make sense. Issue here being, can Black access that kind of power in the first place?

Or its possible that Rose functions in such a way that it always is at 100%, despite the aura, like with Blue's burst full potential.

I don't remember if the Manga makes it evident that Rose > Blue in efficiency, energy restoration and potential.

Black never perfected Rose so he should have the same cap regular Blue has. Which is implied to be a 5 times boost over SSG at the U6 tournament.

They say Merged Zamasu has already access to a version of Perfected Rose (100% power) thanks to his stamina but that doesn't make sense since he struggles against someone that is weaker than even SS Black with incomplete Blue.

Zamasu only comments on the difference in color so I assume the forms are the same otherwise. Wouldn't surprise me that Toyo made Black even more pathetic here though.

[The Undying]

It's not terribly necessary to assume there's some kind of "perfected Rosé" in Fused Zamasu's repertoire. You could say it's theoretically sound that his regeneration would help offset SSGSS's drop in power, but I don't think it's something that was ever directly alluded to.

It's easier to conclude the gains of his Potara fusion made him powerful enough to go toe-to-toe with 100% Blue. There's also a power-stressed version of Fused Zamasu, but like with Vegeta (who later blew Fused Zamasu to smithereens using his power-stressed form) or Goku in the Tournament of Power, it's just a temporary boost in strength that goes beyond their full capacity at the cost of enormous body strain.

[SupremeKai25]

So what's up with Fused Zamasu threatening to destroy the entire galaxy? Is he only galaxy level in the manga

[ZombieVito]

So what's up with Fused Zamasu threatening to destroy the entire galaxy? Is he only galaxy level in the manga

It's Toyo man.

If it's not Goku or Vegeta, they are going to get nerfed compared to their anime counterparts.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Actually there are some good threads out there as to why Goku in the Super Anime at MUI is still a Skyfather, multi-galaxy tier.

Ofc even a dog knows how Super Saiyan God from BoG had outlier universal feats.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Before the fusion, Black's Super Saiyan Rosé did not demonstrate the same weaknesses as Goku and Vegeta using SSB. So I don't think Merged Zamasu got any kind of "Completed Rosé", that would only be possible using the same method that Goku did. He just didn’t suffer from excessive energy expenditure just like Black

Toyo's Zamasu is an idiot (What a surprise) since he saw Goku completing Blue, he should have figured it out and complete Rose himself and easily kill them all.

Even though he knows the method Goku used to perfect the SSB, Vegeta needs months of training to be able to do the same. Merged Zamasu wouldn't be able to replicate just by looking.

[Magnificent Ponta]

I would have agreed with this point if Vegeta didn't already emphasize the difference between using Blue's full power for a "short while" (the God-Blue switching tactic) and using it "continuously" (completed Super Saiyan Blue) while describing Goku's new accomplishment to Trunks. The initial impact, at the very least, is virtually the same.

This is probably the most substantive counter to my position that I can see - thanks for taking the time. In upholding the position I've taken, I guess I'll shift the ground slightly by noting that Vegeta's comparison isn't between his own tactic and Goku's, but rather between 'the problem with SSjB' and Goku's response. So, this isn't itself a statement that Vegeta has been using something like the complete power of SSjB at any point.

My position holds that most of the power that exists for SSjB is spilling out through the aura from the outset and so isn't used generally - even if Goku can make its power explode from a God-switch for use once against Hit (Note: he doesn't quite say that's the SSjB's full power, though), and even if Vegeta can do that multiple times without loss of power, this "full" power still isn't the "complete" power, which is only usable and capable of direction if the aura is sealed within. If using the complete power is dependent on sealing the aura and its power within, it therefore follows that any instance where this isn't being done, the power likewise isn't being harnessed. Though the "full" power exists and is "there" generally, it's not all within the person to be used, even if their power isn't dropping yet - it's just "overflowing".

That this is the case is shown by the fact that the SSjB aura power almost "breaks" Goku and tries to explode out of him at multiple times during the fight between Goku and Zamas², and this is described by Vegeta more than once as synonymous with Goku nearing his limit, and being at risk of either destroying himself or losing the form. If Goku is just holding on to power he can already use, however briefly (i.e. just countering a leaching), it doesn't make much sense that it's breaking him to keep this ordinary power within; this makes much more sense if the complete power is an extra amount of power he's not even accustomed to using, even though it's typically "there".

Moreover, I think the position that the 'initial impact' of 'ordinary' SSjB is similar to complete SSjB power is contradicted by Vegeta's performance against Beerus and the statements that go with it - from the point he uses Complete SSjB, Vegeta's performance is enhanced in every way compared to how his normal SSjB performs, even initially: offensively, he pushes Beerus; speed-wise, he dodges Beerus when he can't before; defensively, he provides steady counters. Beerus goes from calling ordinary SSjB a "mere power-up from Super Saiyan God" to being put under pressure by Complete SSjB (even though he's not fighting seriously), and is forced to mention that Vegeta has improved, which is a statement that only makes sense if it is an improvement in general when compared with 'ordinary' SSjB, even at its initial power.

I hope this counter makes sense - I think it fits the sum total of the evidence.

You are missing a critical point: Merged Zamasu can use Full Power with a 100% uptime.
Vegeta could use Full Power only in brief bursts in-between downgrading to God, which is much weaker.

It was fine when the different wasn't excessive: we know a tired Blue can be even weaker than God.
Therefore Zamasu was never at Full Power against Vegeta's Blue-God-Switch as even when putting effort to force the output to the maximum possible, he was still losing stamina and\or damaging his body, making him progressively weaker.
He might have defeated Vegeta if he understood his tactic faster, and therefore with more power to use.

It's obvious, then, that a fully regenerated and unlimited max stamina Marged Zamasu who already did know the tactic could drop Vegeta easily.

Thanks for taking the time here, but I haven't missed this particular point; rather, I've dismissed it because the way I see it, Zamas²'s regenerative capacity really isn't relevant to the question, I'm afraid:

• When Vegeta uses bursts against Black, he overmasters him from the beginning; Black has only used his form so far to briefly take out Trunks just before Goku and Vegeta get there, so a significant power drain on Black's part is unlikely and, furthermore, not stated. Vegeta is just a lot stronger.

• Goku makes specifically clear that when Vegeta's using bursts, his power isn't decreasing. Even if you want to relativise this statement and make the argument for 'aura leach' leading to some decrease (even in the teeth of Goku's statement), fine, but there's no evidence that it's significant, so when Zamas² beats Vegeta, it's not down to any significant power loss - it's just that he's at a decisive disadvantage.

• When Zamas² beats Vegeta, there isn't a God-Blue switch to consider here - Vegeta just goes SSjB and gets whomped immediately. So it's not about SSjG being weaker and offering an opening. Zamas² just wins easily.

• Even when offered the opportunity to use his full power after restoration, Vegeta admits he can't fight evenly with Zamas². So Zamas² is just a lot stronger than SSjB Vegeta.

So the scale of the differences we see can't be convincingly explained by stamina or aura leach issues, so the fact that Zamas² has regenerative capabilities that Black doesn't have isn't really relevant. There's just a sheer power difference in each encounter.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think a nice and easy way to look at it is that SSB has a lot of potential power, but by its very nature it's very hard to reach that potential due to the form's power drain from merely being in it.

Sealing off the leakage will unlock its full potential power, while bursting in and out will keep in most but not quite all of that power.

[Magnificent Ponta]

As an addendum to what I've said so far, and looking at some of the other comments, I'd like to directly say that I think there are very few "dumb" takes on what's going on with power in Dragon Ball Super generally, principally because I believe it plays with at least some power concepts that aren't conventional for Dragon Ball to tell its story (I try to grapple with these in my posts on SSjB's aura, or Ultra Instinct/Spirit Control's 'power projection', for example). I see a number of respectable takes that apply conventional Dragon Ball logic to Super, but I'm just not always sure they always completely fit, I guess.

[ZombieVito]

Before the fusion, Black's Super Saiyan Rosé did not demonstrate the same weaknesses as Goku and Vegeta using SSB. So I don't think Merged Zamasu got any kind of "Completed Rosé", that would only be possible using the same method that Goku did. He just didn’t suffer from excessive energy expenditure just like Black

Toyo's Zamasu is an idiot (What a surprise) since he saw Goku completing Blue, he should have figured it out and complete Rose himself and easily kill them all.

Even though he knows the method Goku used to perfect the SSB, Vegeta needs months of training to be able to do the same. Merged Zamasu wouldn't be able to replicate just by looking.

Point taken.

He's suppose to be a fighting prodigy so he should have least tried though.

[The Undying]

In upholding the position I've taken, I guess I'll shift the ground slightly by noting that Vegeta's comparison isn't between his own tactic and Goku's, but rather between 'the problem with SSjB' and Goku's response.

I don't disagree that Vegeta referred to Blue's weakness in more general terms, but I'm placing particular emphasis on God-Blue because "complete" Blue is the only version of the form Vegeta singled out as a continuous use of its full power. If anything, that's what Vegeta specifically attributed as the main difference between itself and the incomplete version of SSGSS - it's distinguished from previous uses because it's continuous, not necessarily because it's stronger than the standard Blue when used as a bursting transformative attack.

You mentioned the power trying to explode out of Goku during his fight with Fused Zamasu, but I think that's less symptomatic of any kind of "extra" strength and more related to the fact that neither Saiyan could contain that strength within them at the start; hence the whole need for Vegeta's God-Blue trick.

Moreover, I think the position that the 'initial impact' of 'ordinary' SSjB is similar to complete SSjB power is contradicted by Vegeta's performance against Beerus and the statements that go with it

My reading of that example has always been that it lends to what I'm saying, actually. When Beerus blocks Vegeta's initial attack, Beerus remarks that the moment of impact was "indeed significant" and that it made his hand shake. If that punch connected to Beerus' face, I don't doubt it would have produced a similar effect as what happened when Vegeta finally did get a clean hit in his perfected state.

Ultimately, any differences between the two would come down to God-Blue only enhancing attack power, whereas the completed Blue would enhance everything from attack power to speed and agility. That's why Fused Zamasu effortlessly blitzed Vegeta during their initial encounter, why Vegeta didn't bother even using God-Blue in that fight, and why Goku was able to keep up after absorbing the aura.

[Hugo Boss]

Also, on the note that Black’s forms should always be stronger than Goku’s, I don’t quite agree with it entirely, because considering that Zamas’ goal was to use Goku’s strength at its fullest, it wouldn’t make sense that his strongest form is stronger than what Goku would have been when their bodies were changed.

Naturally, his normal and Super Saiyan forms were very strong because Zamas himself was between Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 in terms of strength, but that’s about it. Once Goku Black reaches god level forms, a powerlevel of that caliber won’t make a significant difference.

So, I wouldn’t say it’s totally unfounded the idea that Zamas managed to complete SSRosé or rather Goku’s strength through fusion.

[Thani]

It doesn't have to make sense per se. The narrative itself already tells us what Completed Blue is. Merged Zamasu is simply that weak, in the manga, raw power-wise. He shouldn't be, but he is.

[TheSaiyanGod]

My reading of that example has always been that it lends to what I'm saying, actually. When Beerus blocks Vegeta's initial attack, Beerus remarks that the moment of impact was "indeed significant" and that it made his hand shake. If that punch connected to Beerus' face, I don't doubt it would have produced a similar effect as what happened when Vegeta finally did get a clean hit in his perfected state.

Ultimately, any differences between the two would come down to God-Blue only enhancing attack power, whereas the completed Blue would enhance everything from attack power to speed and agility. That's why Fused Zamasu effortlessly blitzed Vegeta during their initial encounter, why Vegeta didn't bother even using God-Blue in that fight, and why Goku was able to keep up after absorbing the aura.

The switch to Blue doesn't just increase attack power. If Vegeta changes to Blue, even for a second, then automatically all of his attributes increase by that amount of time. The fact that Vegeta did not use this against Merged Zamasu, not even to try to harm him, implies that these burts would not be effective against the fusion, unlike Completed Blue.

Beerus' stance when Vegeta uses Completed Blue changes a lot. He starts dodging and defending himself with more difficulties from his attacks. Vegeta's initial punch with the incomplete Blue certainly did not produce the same impact, which reinforces that Blue even in its first few seconds of use does not provide the same strength as the CSSB, it is necessary that the aura is sealed inside the body for this to happen

[ZombieVito]

My reading of that example has always been that it lends to what I'm saying, actually. When Beerus blocks Vegeta's initial attack, Beerus remarks that the moment of impact was "indeed significant" and that it made his hand shake. If that punch connected to Beerus' face, I don't doubt it would have produced a similar effect as what happened when Vegeta finally did get a clean hit in his perfected state.

Ultimately, any differences between the two would come down to God-Blue only enhancing attack power, whereas the completed Blue would enhance everything from attack power to speed and agility. That's why Fused Zamasu effortlessly blitzed Vegeta during their initial encounter, why Vegeta didn't bother even using God-Blue in that fight, and why Goku was able to keep up after absorbing the aura.

The switch to Blue doesn't just increase attack power. If Vegeta changes to Blue, even for a second, then automatically all of his attributes increase by that amount of time. The fact that Vegeta did not use this against Merged Zamasu, not even to try to harm him, implies that these burts would not be effective against the fusion, unlike Completed Blue.

Beerus' stance when Vegeta uses Completed Blue changes a lot. He starts dodging and defending himself with more difficulties from his attacks. Vegeta's initial punch with the incomplete Blue certainly did not produce the same impact, which reinforces that Blue even in its first few seconds of use does not provide the same strength as the CSSB, it is necessary that the aura is sealed inside the body for this to happen

Yep.

Merged Zamasu literally drops Vegeta the second he activated SSB so that alone proves CSSB does give a boost over SSB.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Yep.

Merged Zamasu literally drops Vegeta the second he activated SSB so that alone proves CSSB does give a boost over SSB.

I mean, while Completed Blue is in fact a power boost over regular Blue, at the same time it is just the use of the maximum potential of the SSB and its power if there was no energy expenditure. So both sides are right about that I think

[ZombieVito]

I mean, while Completed Blue is in fact a power boost over regular Blue, at the same time it is just the use of the maximum potential of the SSB and its power if there was no energy expenditure. So both sides are right about that I think

It can be viewed like that I suppose.

One thing is clear though, Merged Zamasu never accessed the full power of Rose. The difference between CSSB Goku and SSR Black was made up by the fusion boost he got.

[The Undying]

The switch to Blue doesn't just increase attack power.

That's not really my point.

Goku specifically said that Vegeta only switches when he attacks. 100% Blue obviously doesn't just increase attack power, but God-Blue was devised for that express purpose. Only a perfected Blue affords the agility and movement speed that can be taken advantage of with continuous use.

Vegeta can't switch to Blue for dodging/speed if his opponent is fast enough to blitz him before he can react. Remember that this is instantaneous switching from God to Blue and back again, and Vegeta has to remain in a lower form to mitigate its leakage.

Moving around during a battle is a lot more time-consuming than just punching somebody for a split second. God-Blue doesn't accommodate that, which is why its primary focus is attack power.

[DBZ Macky]

So what's up with Fused Zamasu threatening to destroy the entire galaxy? Is he only galaxy level in the manga

It's just like how Buuhan in the Anime threatens Vegetto with a blast capable of destroying the planet when logically they should be able to destroy the Solar System like Cell.

Spoiler:

I wouldn't look too much into it.

It's Toyo man.

If it's not Goku or Vegeta, they are going to get nerfed compared to their anime counterparts.

Say no to Toyataro slander! The Manga did give us stuff like Gohan vs Kefla, so I don't think this is true.
Though I guess you could look at it from the angle of Kefla getting nerfed rather than Gohan getting buffed