Does anyone else feel that much of the DB fandom enforces low standards?

[LoganForkHands73]

Granted my pop culture knowledge is limited to mostly my life time but Empire feels like the first time a big twist like this happened in a movie. I can't recall anything else like it on this scale and it feels like so many subsequent stories are chasing that reaction.

With DB the twist mostly works because it was initially not used as a chosen one twist.

... Surely it doesn't need to be said, but Star Wars didn't innovate big shocking plot twists in cinema, not even close.

"Like this" is vague but I know there were other twists but not quite this level of notoriety. I was thinking Rosebud is a sled is a big twist obviously but not as huge. Julie brought up Planet of the Apes which is a good one, but I still maintain Empire is the example of one keep chasing. More to the point, it's the one where the protagonist and the antagonist are linked by blood.

It's why I love the line in Yu Yu Hakusho where Mukuro says "Don't worry I'm not gonna say 'I'm your father' or some cliche like that." That's not the exact quote but it's something like it.

Ok, thanks for clarifying. It was already an abused trope in fiction before Star Wars used it, but its overuse after Empire has certainly accelerated how much people have grown sick to death of it. I think the reveal in Last Jedi that Rey isn't related to anybody important was the best thing Johnson could've done, but Rise of Skywalker, which I still haven't seen on principle of how much it disrespected the direction of the previous film, fucked it up. The prequels already did a number on how all the important characters from the OT seemed to already know each other in this huge galaxy, we didn't need any more of that.

[kemuri07]

Remember: Mary Sue's are self insert characters. I.e. a character that clearly represents the author, typically used in fanfiction in which said self-insert suddenly and immediately connect themselves to established characters. Goku is not a Mary Sue; Rey is not a Mary Sue.

[NitroEX]

Not sure where this thread derailed to since but I do agree with the initial post. In fact, I think it extends beyond just story and writing and into other areas of the creative process such as animation, casting, music and dubbing. In my experience, it's all too common for people to be unable to picture better alternatives unless it's literally created and shoved in their face in an official capacity.

[Matches Malone]

In my experience, it's all too common for people to be unable to picture better alternatives unless it's literally created and shoved in their face in an official capacity.

I think it has more to do with brand loyalty, people simply don't like to criticize what they're fans of, even if they recognize it has issues. When it comes to DB, you'd have to have some very strong loyalty to justify the train wreck that modern DB is.

[Jiren The Alpha]

In my experience, it's all too common for people to be unable to picture better alternatives unless it's literally created and shoved in their face in an official capacity.

I think it has more to do with brand loyalty, people simply don't like to criticize what they're fans of, even if they recognize it has issues. When it comes to DB, you'd have to have some very strong loyalty to justify the train wreck that modern DB is.

But what about the other way? Dragon Ball back in the days did not have flawless animation or storytelling, but for some reason its ok to defend OG Dragon Ball but if you defend modern Dragon Ball your crazy.

Its like people nowadays that are defending the star wars prequals ( i did that before it was cool ) because they don't like the sequels, they forgot how many flaws those movies had because they are blinded by they hatred for the sequels.

[Matches Malone]

Dragon Ball back in the days did not have flawless animation or storytelling, but for some reason its ok to defend OG Dragon Ball but if you defend modern Dragon Ball your crazy.

People have been pointing out classic DB's flaws forever now, be it the animation in certain parts of the Namek arc, Z's terrible pacing, time travel in the Cell arc, plot points within the Buu arc, etc.

[Jiren The Alpha]

Dragon Ball back in the days did not have flawless animation or storytelling, but for some reason its ok to defend OG Dragon Ball but if you defend modern Dragon Ball your crazy.

People have been pointing out classic DB's flaws forever now, be it the animation in certain parts of the Namek arc, Z's terrible pacing, time travel in the Cell arc, plot points within the Buu arc, etc.

You said that you need to have strong loyalty to defend modern DB, but isn't that the same for old Dragon Ball?

[Matches Malone]

You said that you need to have strong loyalty to defend modern DB, but isn't that the same for old Dragon Ball?

Being a fan doesn't mean you have to be completely loyal to something. It's OK to criticize something you're a fan of. I've been a fan of DB for over 15 years now, and it's my favorite anime franchise, but I can still call it out on its faults. No one's saying you can't like modern DB, just don't be in denial about the things it's gotten wrong so far.

[Lightningexpose]

The way much of the fandom reacted to Sumitomo’s score for Broly with as much hype as they showed certainly made me feel the fandom reinforces low standards.

Absolutely sub-par compositions relative to other anime and video game soundtracks.

But then again, a large section of the fandom act like the “Bruce Faulconer” score is a master class in music

[Jiren The Alpha]

You said that you need to have strong loyalty to defend modern DB, but isn't that the same for old Dragon Ball?

Being a fan doesn't mean you have to be completely loyal to something. It's OK to criticize something you're a fan of. I've been a fan of DB for over 15 years now, and it's my favorite anime franchise, but I can still call it out on its faults. No one's saying you can't like modern DB, just don't be in denial about the things it's gotten wrong so far.

I agree, but whats right and wrong is subjektiv, Gohan getting the spotlight in the Cell saga was wrong for me but not for others, Goten and Trunks getting super saiyan was not a problem for me but for others it was.

But you got to admit sometimes fans complain about stupid stuff in Super that happend in the original series.

[Matches Malone]

You got to admit sometimes fans complain about stupid stuff in Super that happened in the original series.

I think complaints about relying on nostalgia is valid, as new content should give us new material. Another valid complaint is Super's production value, which members of the staff admitted was troubled. There's also the inconsistent writing, such as characters acting out of character, or one thing being stated one minute only for it to be contradicted the very next.

Are there fans who complain about nothing ? of course, but I think a lot of the complaints are justified. I think it's also worth mentioning that the reason we complain about modern DB is because we hold the franchise in high regards, so we just want to see it be the best it can, and it currently isn't. Does that mean the original was the best it could've been ? no, but that doesn't mean modern DB should be making the same mistakes.

[The Bastard.]

The way much of the fandom reacted to Sumitomo’s score for Broly with as much hype as they showed certainly made me feel the fandom reinforces low standards.

Absolutely sub-par compositions relative to other anime and video game soundtracks.

But then again, a large section of the fandom act like the “Bruce Faulconer” score is a master class in music

Sunitomo score at the Broly movie is awesome, fucking Hype all around, just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's shit. Every rewatch the score gets better and while it's a departure from Kikuchi's classics it's a good modernizing in a department that Super lacked and it was stagnant for a while in the show.

[Planetnamek]

Except that doesn't work as a theme in Star Wars because of how The Force was potrayed to work in the series. Also, Rey being a random nobody who just-so-happens to be on par with the greatest Jedis & Siths who ever lived would have made her even more of a Mary Sue than she already is lmao, because there would have been no internal justification for her shown capabilities. Its the exact same reason why the reveal of Goku being a Saiyan at the start of Z was one of the best things Toriyama ever did for the character, because it retroactively justifies all of his feats & accomplishments he had prior to it and prevented him from being a Gary Stu.

Every single time I hear the term "Mary Sue" mentioned in regards to a fictional character, I roll my eyes so hard . That term was originally coined to mock certain types of characters in FANFICTION, using it for actual real fictional works makes zero sense.

"Mary Sue" is a legit criticism of certain characters based on their bad writing. It was never limited to fan fiction.

https://youtu.be/H2-GIY9RTqU

I disagree, i've only ever seen that term used in bad faith by alt-right edgelord trolls in regards to criticizing female characters in films, games and TV shows, most of the time it just comes down to plain old misogyny.

[Lightningexpose]

The way much of the fandom reacted to Sumitomo’s score for Broly with as much hype as they showed certainly made me feel the fandom reinforces low standards.

Absolutely sub-par compositions relative to other anime and video game soundtracks.

But then again, a large section of the fandom act like the “Bruce Faulconer” score is a master class in music

Sunitomo score at the Broly movie is awesome, fucking Hype all around, just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's shit. Every rewatch the score gets better and while it's a departure from Kikuchi's classics it's a good modernizing in a department that Super lacked and it was stagnant for a while in the show.

Case in point.

[The Bastard.]

The way much of the fandom reacted to Sumitomo’s score for Broly with as much hype as they showed certainly made me feel the fandom reinforces low standards.

Absolutely sub-par compositions relative to other anime and video game soundtracks.

But then again, a large section of the fandom act like the “Bruce Faulconer” score is a master class in music

Sunitomo score at the Broly movie is awesome, fucking Hype all around, just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's shit. Every rewatch the score gets better and while it's a departure from Kikuchi's classics it's a good modernizing in a department that Super lacked and it was stagnant for a while in the show.

Case in point.

For your own ineptitude and inability to recognize good music, for sure.

[Jiren The Alpha]

The way much of the fandom reacted to Sumitomo’s score for Broly with as much hype as they showed certainly made me feel the fandom reinforces low standards.

Absolutely sub-par compositions relative to other anime and video game soundtracks.

But then again, a large section of the fandom act like the “Bruce Faulconer” score is a master class in music

Sunitomo score at the Broly movie is awesome, fucking Hype all around, just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's shit. Every rewatch the score gets better and while it's a departure from Kikuchi's classics it's a good modernizing in a department that Super lacked and it was stagnant for a while in the show.

I agree, reminds me of the Yakuza games soundtrack HYPE AS FUCK.

[The Bastard.]

The way much of the fandom reacted to Sumitomo’s score for Broly with as much hype as they showed certainly made me feel the fandom reinforces low standards.

Absolutely sub-par compositions relative to other anime and video game soundtracks.

But then again, a large section of the fandom act like the “Bruce Faulconer” score is a master class in music

Sunitomo score at the Broly movie is awesome, fucking Hype all around, just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's shit. Every rewatch the score gets better and while it's a departure from Kikuchi's classics it's a good modernizing in a department that Super lacked and it was stagnant for a while in the show.

I agree, reminds me of the Yakuza games soundtrack HYPE AS FUCK.

That's what I'm saying, this is not amateur hour Falconer doing some shitty disturbed impression, it's a guy that knows what he's doing and has passion and talent to make it work. Just the Opening of Super Broly os incredible, all the battle songs are incredibly well done and it gave me chills at the theater hearing the gutural singer calling our heroes names mid battle. You can find it bad, or cringe, but it won't change the fact that it is a well thought out and technical score at the very least and one of the best scores for the franchise at the very best.

[kemuri07]

You said that you need to have strong loyalty to defend modern DB, but isn't that the same for old Dragon Ball?

Being a fan doesn't mean you have to be completely loyal to something. It's OK to criticize something you're a fan of. I've been a fan of DB for over 15 years now, and it's my favorite anime franchise, but I can still call it out on its faults. No one's saying you can't like modern DB, just don't be in denial about the things it's gotten wrong so far.

But you got to admit sometimes fans complain about stupid stuff in Super that happend in the original series.

No one here will claim that DBZ was perfect; but to say that people shouldn't complain about stuff Super did because "Z did it well" is kind of...bullshit. I'd argue that the fact that DBS still suffers from a lot of issues that plague later Z, a 20+ year old show, makes Super look a hell of a lot worse. Especially in comparison to other similar shonen anime.

[Jiren The Alpha]

Being a fan doesn't mean you have to be completely loyal to something. It's OK to criticize something you're a fan of. I've been a fan of DB for over 15 years now, and it's my favorite anime franchise, but I can still call it out on its faults. No one's saying you can't like modern DB, just don't be in denial about the things it's gotten wrong so far.

But you got to admit sometimes fans complain about stupid stuff in Super that happend in the original series.

No one here will claim that DBZ was perfect; but to say that people shouldn't complain about stuff Super did because "Z did it well" is kind of...bullshit. I'd argue that the fact that DBS still suffers from a lot of issues that plague later Z, a 20+ year old show, makes Super look a hell of a lot worse. Especially in comparison to other similar shonen anime.

I did not say that people can't complain but they complain need to make sense, saying stuff like "it's bullshit that universe 6 saiyans can turn super saiyan"(Goten and Trunks). or , "they need to explain why Jiren is so strong otherwise it make no sense"(Frieza, Yajirobe, Tao pai pai, the androids) is just complaining for the sake of complaining.

And how can Super look worst when it's more popular then most shows?

[UI Peter]

Gary Stu and Mary Sue, really?

Yes, really

Goku being a Saiyan doesn't work because it explains anything. It worked because it made a point about class and it opened up the world even more. You thought the enemies he fought were strong, wait until you get a load of these guys! You though Goku was special? Nope, he was a weakling among his race. And ultimately the point Toriyama makes is Goku isn't some chosen one, he has a natural gift but he sharpens and refines it through training until he's the best of his race.

The fact that Goku is a full-blood Saiyan with a pure heart makes him special (especially for Z). The fact that he's low class yet reach levels of power above the elites makes him inherently special. The fact that he's the 1st SSJ in thousands of years makes him super special lmao. Any attempt to potray Goku as "not special" just doesn't work when he keeps doing special feats and his special stuff happen to him on the regular lol


It is absolutely a cliche. Nobody can seem to meet through circumstance anymore. Everyone needs to have some secret relation in order to justify something in the story. Sometimes it works, often times it doesn't. And sometimes elements in a story don't need explanation. They can just be. We didn't need the Saiyan reveal to justify Goku's strength. He was the main character and he was a wunderkind. That's a big reason the story followed him and it didn't need more than that.

How in the world is a real-life sociological phenomenon a cliche? The real-life fact that genetics/heritage matters means that yes, you DO often need some special relation to justify many certain things in a story, and Goku being a Saiyan did just that. You ever wonder why almost every mythological hero tends to be some type of demi-god or an high ranked aristocrat? That's the main reason. And Goku being strong "just so" in Early DB doesn't work at all, since there was plenty of other characters that trained longer & harder and lived much longer than Kid Goku did yet couldn't match him in power & talent for apparently no reason. It's a very Mary Sueish thing.

The emperor was probably the strongest character we saw in the original trilogy and maybe prequels. Do we need some drawn out explanation why? No. He just was and sometimes that's okay.

Stop abusing the term Mary Sue. First, you are using it wrong, and it's obnoxious. You take this point as somehow self evident without any need to explain why you believe either Rey or Goku are somehow Mary Sue's. Goku's the main character. The whole point of a Mary Sue is that they are better than everyone else, usually the leads, and is perfect.
A Mary Sue can still be flawed bro, you are the one thats using it wrong
Goku is better than his peers in ONE aspect - fighting, and even then he loses a lot, and constantly finds people better than he is. Please stop using that insipid term. You only think its insipid because you dont like it.What's odd about your comment is you bring up real life sociological phenomena as justification for your viewpoint but don't see that some people are simply gifted, hence young musical prodigies who are as good as adult musicians who have trained for years. Other characters were said to by natural prodigies in early DB too, yey they still got effortlessly outclassed by Goku for apparently no reason

Why doesn't it work that Goku is just innately better than the other fighters? Because it doesn't make any sense in the context of DragonballSome people are just naturally gifted. There is no other explanation needed other than that. It's the combination of natural talent and effort, not just one or the other. Yet other "naturally gifted" characters in early DB weren't written in a Sueish manner

And Star Wars is about as great a fictional example of characters being good at using a plot device "just because" as you'll ever find.Even though that wasn't the case even in the 1st movie lmao The force is so vaguely defined that it's literally called THE FORCE.The Force was given detailed exposition on how it works and what it exactly is in the OG trilogy, so this argument is purely false I don't know why anyone feels they need some explanation for why any character is so innately good at something. Even with Goku's Saiyan heritage, that doesn't explain why Goku is so much more talented than Vegeta.He isnt, actually Both are Saiyans and Vegeta probably works even harder but doesn't make the gains as quickly as Goku. At some point you have to accept these sorts of things just because.

So if Videl were to just randomly become stronger than Zeno "just because", that would be okay with you?