"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[emperior]

The art is, once again, unbelievably good. And Toriyama corrected a couple of drawings too!

I saw some discussion about this on Twitter, but I'm not sure where this is coming from. What makes people think that there were Toriyama corrections?

We got sketches and the Goku on the bottom has been very heavily redrawn: https://twitter.com/Gladiatoreum/status ... 77920?s=20

There’s also the side shot of Goku speaking with his eyes closed which, for some reason, seemingly got redrawn (even though it was fine in the sketch).
And the very last panel of Beerus, I suspect, was also corrected.

What gives it away the most is how this time around Toyotaro has left Toriyama’s ears the same. Usually when he gets corrected by Toriyama he ends up redrawing the ears in his style.

It seems like for some reason ever since last chapter Toriyama has been correcting a few drawing, especially of Goku who he had never corrected in the manga as far as we know.
Maybe he has more free time? I definitely can’t complain. That Goku drawing which was corrected that I posted above was something I noticed to be a bit bad looking when I first saw the sketch, and I immediately recognized it got changed a lot in the final product.

Other than the ear, what gives it away is: the face shape, the nose, the neck, the traps muscles, the eyes, the way the bangs on the forehead were drawn (see the difference from the sketch).
The eyes are especially much more expressive in Toriyama’s correction. It really shows how much of a difference his art can make! Not complaining about Toyotaro, though. He’s really making an hell of a great job with the art as of lately.

[SupremeKai25]

As long as Goku doesn't spare Moro out of the kindness of his heart I think I'll tolerate what happens. Because we all know Moro would just try to find some type of advantage and pretend he's going to change before trying to kill everyone again. The hand will likely get Moro back to normal and Vegeta might actually get a chance to use his defusion technique.

Once Moro's defused, they should kill him instantly. No bs, no nothing. Just flat out obliterate Moro from the face of earth and make sure he never comes back to life. Moro is too dangerous to be allowed to live, he's gotten off the hook too many times, Earth will be his grave by the end of the arc, even if he has to take a few more people with him before he dies.

Also if I'm not mistaken Moro's army is rampaging across the universe, which means Moro's death is even more vital than before. Kill Moro and his minions will surely lose hope and surrender. But if you let Moro live, then those minions will always remain a threat, even if from the shadows.

Moro's army was imprisoned one or two chapters ago. It's just Moro now.

Yeah but there's still the risk of Moro breaking them out if he can go free after the battle. The Galactic Patrol failed once, they can't do their job. This whole arc started because the Galactic Patrol are incompetent, it's best to put Moro down before there can be another rebellion from his army.

Plus they put Moro in prison long ago because no one was strong enough to end his life, but maybe Beerus never bothered to confront him. Now that Moro is weak and injured, I'm sure either MUI Goku or even just Beerus can oneshot him. It would be preferable if Beerus just destroyed him so that he can't cause problems in Hell.

[Jiren The Alpha]

The art is, once again, unbelievably good. And Toriyama corrected a couple of drawings too!

I saw some discussion about this on Twitter, but I'm not sure where this is coming from. What makes people think that there were Toriyama corrections?

We got sketches and the Goku on the bottom has been very heavily redrawn: https://twitter.com/Gladiatoreum/status ... 77920?s=20

There’s also the side shot of Goku speaking with his eyes closed which, for some reason, seemingly got redrawn (even though it was fine in the sketch).
And the very last panel of Beerus, I suspect, was also corrected.

What gives it away the most is how this time around Toyotaro has left Toriyama’s ears the same. Usually when he gets corrected by Toriyama he ends up redrawing the ears in his style.

It seems like for some reason ever since last chapter Toriyama has been correcting a few drawing, especially of Goku who he had never corrected in the manga as far as we know.
Maybe he has more free time? I definitely can’t complain. That Goku drawing which was corrected that I posted above was something I noticed to be a bit bad looking when I first saw the sketch, and I immediately recognized it got changed a lot in the final product.

Other than the ear, what gives it away is: the face shape, the nose, the neck, the traps muscles, the eyes, the way the bangs on the forehead were drawn (see the difference from the sketch).
The eyes are especially much more expressive in Toriyama’s correction. It really shows how much of a difference his art can make! Not complaining about Toyotaro, though. He’s really making an hell of a great job with the art as of lately.

If Toyataro was good to begin with, Toriyama wouldn't have to waste time with the redrawings but instead have the time to help him with the story and characters.

[DiscountDabi]

If Toyataro was good to begin with, Toriyama wouldn't have to waste time with the redrawings but instead have the time to help him with the story and characters.

Stop. Just...no. We’re not starting that.

[Jiren The Alpha]

If Toyataro was good to begin with, Toriyama wouldn't have to waste time with the redrawings but instead have the time to help him with the story and characters.

Stop. Just...no. We’re not starting that.

You right, my bad.....but it's true.

[Magnificent Ponta]

If Toyataro was good to begin with, Toriyama wouldn't have to waste time with the redrawings but instead have the time to help him with the story and characters.

Stop. Just...no. We’re not starting that.

You right, my bad.....but it's true.

It's your opinion, which is all that can really be said for it.

[Skar]

If Toyataro was good to begin with, Toriyama wouldn't have to waste time with the redrawings but instead have the time to help him with the story and characters.

Isn't Toriyama only redrawing a handful of panels out of each chapter? I imagine that would only take a few hours each month so Toriyama should have plenty of time if he wanted to help with the story and characters. Toyotaro said Toriyama was still supervising this arc so this might be as far as Toriyama wants to help and not because he doesn't have enough time to do more.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

Also if I'm not mistaken Moro's army is rampaging across the universe, which means Moro's death is even more vital than before. Kill Moro and his minions will surely lose hope and surrender. But if you let Moro live, then those minions will always remain a threat, even if from the shadows.

Moro's army was imprisoned one or two chapters ago. It's just Moro now.

Yeah but there's still the risk of Moro breaking them out if he can go free after the battle. The Galactic Patrol failed once, they can't do their job. This whole arc started because the Galactic Patrol are incompetent, it's best to put Moro down before there can be another rebellion from his army.

Plus they put Moro in prison long ago because no one was strong enough to end his life, but maybe Beerus never bothered to confront him. Now that Moro is weak and injured, I'm sure either MUI Goku or even just Beerus can oneshot him. It would be preferable if Beerus just destroyed him so that he can't cause problems in Hell.

Exactly. If Moro lives, he could just pull this again. Moro needs to die and honestly him being erased would at least prevent him from causing problems in hell or being revived. Because if someone who cared about Moro's ideals thought it was a good idea to revive him, they'd just gather the dragon balls and wish him back to life, and Moro would probably be ecstatic about being alive and pursue earth once revived and kill everyone before they can fight back. Best to erase him for good and end the arc, as the risk of Moro coming back is too great to risk.

[batistabus]

Another thing is that Goku doesn't like to kill or continue fighting someone who is already defeated. He's not much of an executioner. But I don't see what that has to do with fighting as an Earthling, unless he just means "I'm going to be myself".

We got sketches and the Goku on the bottom has been very heavily redrawn: https://twitter.com/Gladiatoreum/status ... 77920?s=20

There’s also the side shot of Goku speaking with his eyes closed which, for some reason, seemingly got redrawn (even though it was fine in the sketch).
And the very last panel of Beerus, I suspect, was also corrected.

What gives it away the most is how this time around Toyotaro has left Toriyama’s ears the same. Usually when he gets corrected by Toriyama he ends up redrawing the ears in his style.

It seems like for some reason ever since last chapter Toriyama has been correcting a few drawing, especially of Goku who he had never corrected in the manga as far as we know.
Maybe he has more free time? I definitely can’t complain. That Goku drawing which was corrected that I posted above was something I noticed to be a bit bad looking when I first saw the sketch, and I immediately recognized it got changed a lot in the final product.

Other than the ear, what gives it away is: the face shape, the nose, the neck, the traps muscles, the eyes, the way the bangs on the forehead were drawn (see the difference from the sketch).
The eyes are especially much more expressive in Toriyama’s correction. It really shows how much of a difference his art can make! Not complaining about Toyotaro, though. He’s really making an hell of a great job with the art as of lately.

Interesting, but I'm not convinced. These are draft pages, so Toyotaro is free to make minor adjustments as he inks the final version. Toyotaro has already drawn over that draft image (digitally?), so we can see he's struggling to get something he's happy with. While I agree that the ear does resemble Toriyama's approach more than Toyotaro's, it doesn't seem like Toriyama to nitpick something like that. Considering how hands-off he is with everything else he oversees, how he's corrected Toyotaro less throughout this arc, and how the rest of the image doesn't really resemble how Toriyama draws Goku...again, I don't see it. I'd bet Toyotaro was struggling, so he busted out a reference, which is why some details are closer to Toriyama's approach. Maybe I'm wrong!

If Toyataro was good to begin with, Toriyama wouldn't have to waste time with the redrawings but instead have the time to help him with the story and characters.

If anything, it suggests that Toriyama is happy with everything else and only sees minor drawing issues to correct.

[Thani]

Another thing is that Goku doesn't like to kill or continue fighting someone who is already defeated. He's not much of an executioner. But I don't see what that has to do with fighting as an Earthling, unless he just means "I'm going to be myself".

I think that may be it. Because as a Galactic Patrol Officer, it would be his duty to execute Moro. As merely another earthling, he would have no such obligation.

[emperior]

I think fighting as an Earthling means fighting to best someone, not to kill them. It means fighting as a martial artist.

Seems like Goku wants to beat Moro into unconsciousness.
I honestly wouldn’t mind it if Moro got redeemed. Maybe Goku could continuously beat him up over and over, even going as far as giving him a senzu after each beatdown, so that Moro can realize how outclassed he is and decide to leave Earth and stop eating planets and become more of a martial artist.

I still think this is going to end with Moro dead and most likely by Vegeta’s hand, somehow.

[The Bastard.]

I think fighting as an Earthling means fighting to best someone, not to kill them. It means fighting as a martial artist.

Seems like Goku wants to beat Moro into unconsciousness.
I honestly wouldn’t mind it if Moro got redeemed. Maybe Goku could continuously beat him up over and over, even going as far as giving him a senzu after each beatdown, so that Moro can realize how outclassed he is and decide to leave Earth and stop eating planets and become more of a martial artist.

I still think this is going to end with Moro dead and most likely by Vegeta’s hand, somehow.

People here saying that Goku should kill Moro and shouldn't let him live because bla bla bla, do these people actually watch dragon ball? If Goku didn't kill Freeza and Tambourine in the first go round until he was provoked to do so do they really think he will change when it comes to Moro? Such a disconnect between what they think DB is and what DB actually is in practice.

[Lionel]

The idea of Goku preparing himself to fight as an earthling under these circumstances is like placing the cart before the horse. Moro has already been battered and bludgeoned to the point that he's pleading for mercy. If Goku wanted to wear his status as an earthling on his now nonexistent sleeve then he should have done so at the beginning before engaging the opponent.

Now if Goku's mind is troubled by hesitation to kill Moro then my question would be how this goat monster is different from the likes of Yakon whom he put down in short order when they clashed. Is it because of Yakon appearing more inhuman and bestial?

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

The idea of Goku preparing himself to fight as an earthling under these circumstances is like placing the cart before the horse. Moro has already been battered and bludgeoned to the point that he's pleading for mercy. If Goku wanted to wear his status as an earthling on his now nonexistent sleeve then he should have done so at the beginning before engaging the opponent.

Now if Goku's mind is troubled by hesitation to kill Moro then my question would be how this goat monster is different from the likes of Yakon whom he put down in short order when they clashed. Is it because of Yakon appearing more inhuman and bestial?

Literally, Moro is on death's door, he's literally begging for his life. A boulder crushed him and he's on the brink. Fighting as an earthling or not, Moro is already on death's door and it's bit late to spare someone who's literally crushed under a rock and pleading for their life. Especially since this is the closest they've gotten to Moro being defeated.

Besides, Goku has killed people for less and honestly hesitating or showing mercy would get everyone killed. Moro is a monster and if he's allowed to live past this arc, it'll come back to bite EVERYONE in the ass because he'll turn Universe 7 into a barren wasteland.

Lionel has a point, and besides if Goku's having a crisis over killing Moro just have Vegeta kill him, Vegeta's literally killed billions of people in his life-time and I doubt he's going to lose a bit of sleep over Moros' demise after all the bs they had to deal with.

[HeroR]

I think fighting as an Earthling means fighting to best someone, not to kill them. It means fighting as a martial artist.

Seems like Goku wants to beat Moro into unconsciousness.
I honestly wouldn’t mind it if Moro got redeemed. Maybe Goku could continuously beat him up over and over, even going as far as giving him a senzu after each beatdown, so that Moro can realize how outclassed he is and decide to leave Earth and stop eating planets and become more of a martial artist.

I still think this is going to end with Moro dead and most likely by Vegeta’s hand, somehow.

People here saying that Goku should kill Moro and shouldn't let him live because bla bla bla, do these people actually watch dragon ball? If Goku didn't kill Freeza and Tambourine in the first go round until he was provoked to do so do they really think he will change when it comes to Moro? Such a disconnect between what they think DB is and what DB actually is in practice.

He did tried to kill Tambourine the first time. He literally couldn’t because he was too tired from fighting Tien. And he didn’t kill Freeza because he saw keeping him alive being worst than death. It wasn’t a mercy.

[Koitsukai]

I find similarities to what happened with Golden Freeza, after Goku knew what Freeza was willing to do, he went for the kill immediately. Moro just tried to eat the planet instead of destroying it, so sparing or converting him really sounds reckless and stupid. Actually is even worse, because Freeza doesn't get stronger after going after a planet.

Maybe Goku meant not executing Moro when he is defeated under a rock and instead letting him get back up and beat him to death? I mean the earthling style isn't to convert or spare people. Piccolo, Vegeta and 18 would be dead if it wasn't for Goku and Krilin's boner.

Also, if Goku's mind is troubled with hesitation, shouldn't he drop out of UI?

[Jiren The Alpha]

If Toyataro was good to begin with, Toriyama wouldn't have to waste time with the redrawings but instead have the time to help him with the story and characters.

Isn't Toriyama only redrawing a handful of panels out of each chapter? I imagine that would only take a few hours each month so Toriyama should have plenty of time if he wanted to help with the story and characters. Toyotaro said Toriyama was still supervising this arc so this might be as far as Toriyama wants to help and not because he doesn't have enough time to do more.

It's only a handful because Toyotaro traces the rest.

[The Undying]

Now if Goku's mind is troubled by hesitation to kill Moro then my question would be how this goat monster is different from the likes of Yakon whom he put down in short order when they clashed. Is it because of Yakon appearing more inhuman and bestial?

The previous chapter addresses this, but it's more because Goku tends to be interested in sparing villains who can provide an exciting challenge. Yakon was, for all intents and purposes, a pushover. He also technically killed himself.

Goku has spared or at least shown hesitation with Piccolo, Vegeta, Freeza on several occasions between the original manga and Super, Boo (Pure Boo, in fact: Goku asked Enma to reincarnate him even when he had no other choice but to kill him), Zamasu prior to his fusion with Black, and very likely would have made some kind of resurrection wish had he won the Tournament of Power.

Anyone can point to outliers and exceptions, but if anything, I think that's part of the suspense here. It can easily go either way - I'd prefer something less predictable, but let's see what happens.

[Cipher]

Re: "Fight as an Earthling":

"I'm not going to finish this out as a member of the Galactic Patrol (even though I just called myself one), since that would require me to execute him, but find a way to end things as an individual Earthling/martial artist," would be my reading.

Re: Why the hesitation over Moro and not over [other character Goku has killed]: Let's say there's no "feeling killing the strong guy is a waste" sentiment going on here. Goku has never executed downed, begging opponents. He's fought to kill plenty of times, but the killing always came before the fight could totally run out in the opponent, in do-or-die moments. Kill-to-win rather than kill-after-winning. Admittedly, it's a convenience of the story that we've never seen him put in a similar situation since Namek, but that's also what makes it intriguing cropping up now. (Though it's not a complete retread of Goku's moment with Freeza, as his dynamic with Moro is quite different.)

My reading is that he simply wants to give Moro a chance to go down fighting, but we won't know until next month.

[Skar]

It's only a handful because Toyotaro traces the rest.

How often does Toyotaro trace panels? He openly admits to using the original manga as a reference but that's different than straight up tracing. I recall Toriyama was the one who chose a new lead animator for DBS: Broly so I don't think Toriyama is under any obligation to keep Toyotaro if Toriyama wasn't satisfied with his work overall.