Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[SupremeKai25]

How strong would be a hypothetical Golden God Cell?

Cell has Freeza genes, so training 4 months like the latter would not just make him strong but able to reach its further evolution.

Also he has the genes of the Saiyans that were able to reach the level of the Gods. Don't know what Cell could do to have use of the God Ki and not only having a power similar to SSJG but also increase to SSJB.

But considering he could, not just by tapping, but combining these unexplored potentials.

Would he WRECK characters like Black and Zamasu?

Cell is very arrogant and cocky, he likes to toy around with his opponent, and that would once again be his gravest mistake. Goku Black has shown to have the most potential out of any Saiyan (along with Broly), the pain and damage he suffered constantly made him stronger and allowed him to unlock greater potential, and when he started using his own anger as fuel, his power expanded beyond his own understanding. What's likely to happen is that Cell, while possibly stronger, would end up letting Black gain the advantage. Similar to what happened vs. Gohan. Cell could've oneshot him, but he wanted to mess around and that ended up backfiring hard.

As for Immortal Zamasu, he could win only if he absorbed him... but I don't believe Perfect Cell is ever shown absorbing people or using his tail at all (aside from the awful Super 17 arc of GT), so I'm not sure if he would do that.

I also think that Cell is overrated. Sure he could gain immense power thanks to his Saiyan-Freeza cells hybrid, but what good is power if you can't wield it? Look what happened to Golden Frieza, he had overwhelming power, but he could never truly control it and that led to his demise. I think a similar case would happen to Cell. He could train very hard and reach GoD level, but then in an actual fight he'd run out of energy/stamina really quick like Golden Frieza. Unless his regeneration is able to sustain him or something like that, but his regeneration is not flawless.

[TheQuestioner]

SSJ Gogeta took blows from Green Broly that he wasn't suppose to take too. You guys use inconsistencies to try and prove your point. The fact is, if Toriyama wanted to demonstrate that Gogeta and Broly wasn't close in power he would of made Gogeta give Broly the Gohan and Cell Two-hitter quitter.

That's the point. Feats that shouldn't happen consistently happen throughout Dragon Ball and more specifically throughout this movie. So why does Broly get special consideration? Toriyama's intention doesn't matter here. He clearly believed Goku was inferior to Broly in his Super Saiyan and Base stats yet Goku took attacks constantly in his base state. Is Base Goku now above SSG Vegeta due to that? No right? That line of logic is faulty.

[Miracles]

SSJ Gogeta took blows from Green Broly that he wasn't suppose to take too. You guys use inconsistencies to try and prove your point. The fact is, if Toriyama wanted to demonstrate that Gogeta and Broly wasn't close in power he would of made Gogeta give Broly the Gohan and Cell Two-hitter quitter.

That's the point. Feats that shouldn't happen consistently happen throughout Dragon Ball and more specifically throughout this movie. So why does Broly get special consideration? Toriyama's intention doesn't matter here. He clearly believed Goku was inferior to Broly in his Super Saiyan and Base stats yet Goku took attacks constantly in his base state. Is Base Goku now above SSG Vegeta due to that? No right? That line of logic is faulty.

TOEI is inconsistent, always has been. Toriyama's manga consistently has enemies who are facing much stronger opponents [who are serious] owned in a few hits. This fits in line with Toriyama's ki size is key to winning the battle. He said himself that physical strength has limits. So the size factor doesn't count.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Since the movie is the current primary canon regarding Broly (references Toriyama's first 2 movies which are clear followups to the original manga), the argument that it isn't Toriyama's vision doesn't count considering it's the overall followup to his Tournament of Power, and apparently is identical for the anime AND manga.

[Miracles]

Oh wow, we got people who think Base Goku, taking and trading attacks with Ikari Broly, is stronger than Red Vegeta.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Oh wow, we got people who think Base Goku, taking and trading attacks with Ikari Broly, is stronger than Red Vegeta.

Nah, just that the movie examples (from Toriyama's latest most direct installment in the franchise) showcase that combat isn't so cut and dry as "fights always go like [X] because of [Y]".

Vastly different power levels can be put against each other with varying results depending on mentality, mindset, fighting style, intent, fighter-specific traits, etc.

It's not always a case of the guy with a higher power level being untouchable, or that they'll always instantly gut-punch-KO someone weaker.

[Thani]

How strong would be a hypothetical Golden God Cell?

Cell has Freeza genes, so training 4 months like the latter would not just make him strong but able to reach its further evolution.

Also he has the genes of the Saiyans that were able to reach the level of the Gods. Don't know what Cell could do to have use of the God Ki and not only having a power similar to SSJG but also increase to SSJB.

But considering he could, not just by tapping, but combining these unexplored potentials.

Would he WRECK characters like Black and Zamasu?

But here's the thing, he has the gene of said saiyans, but the "level of the Gods" was NOT something they could reach naturally. So it's not on Cell's plate to get god ki just because Goku and Vegeta achieved it. Not without very specialized training or a ritual, at any rate.

Freeza's golden form, however, is something he can achieve. It would probably NOT be golden for him, since Freeza himself stated he chose the color - makes sense, his species can change shapes, so he theoretically could customize his "final evolution". Considering that neither Cell nor Freeza have ever trained in their lives, it's entirely possible that Cell's gains could be gigantic as well. Either that, or his biology would simply be dependent on absorptions to increase in power naturally (outside of transformations, of course), idk.

[GodVegetto91]

Here's a possible power-chain for the manga:

Moro arc UI Goku>Full-Power Moro 73>Suppressed Moro 73>>Full-Power Moro>SSBE Vegeta post-Yardrat>Moro arc Full-Power UI Omen Goku>Moro arc Suppressed UI Omen Goku~ToP UI Goku>>Moro arc SSB Goku>>Saganbo post-Moro absorbed power>>Moro arc Gohan>ToP arc SSB Goku>ToP arc Gohan

I fully agree with this scale. Good one

[GodVegetto91]

Here’s my official new scale!

SSB Gogeta >>>>>>>>> Broly = SSB Vegito (Black Arc) = Beerus >>>>>>>> MUI Goku (current) > Moro 73 > Prime Moro >>> Jiren (ToP)

[BagetaSama]

Here's a possible power-chain for the manga:

Moro arc UI Goku>Full-Power Moro 73>Suppressed Moro 73>>Full-Power Moro>SSBE Vegeta post-Yardrat>Moro arc Full-Power UI Omen Goku>Moro arc Suppressed UI Omen Goku~ToP UI Goku>>Moro arc SSB Goku>>Saganbo post-Moro absorbed power>>Moro arc Gohan>ToP arc SSB Goku>ToP arc Gohan

I fully agree with this scale. Good one

You agree that UI Omen Goku post-Merus training, even while suppressed, is on the level of his actual UI in the ToP when he fought Jiren at the end? And that Vegeta surpassed this Goku who went full-power? I figured these would be controversial takes, but I guess not.

[Dragon Ball Daisuki]

Personally, this is how I have it too. I had UI as 10x SSB, and with Saganbo maxing out at 6x SSB (presuming he is is brought to SSB-level with the first power-up from Moro on Earth, and the remaining power-ups are equivalent), it makes sense for even the Suppressed UI to be around this level.

[Koitsukai]

I don't think ToP UI is below current Sign.
We need more to go, but as of now the boost Goku just got is quite big, he went from failing to touch an uninterested Moro73 to one-shot his FP. This of course could be because Goku now has "more" UI than before(if that makes any sense), and should be addressed in the chapter 65, but if not, if the only difference is that now he can use it for longer and without losing steam, then during the ToP Goku got the same kind of boost he got last month.

Anyway, unless a explicit statement says this, I'm inclined to not believe ToP UI has been surpassed by an incomplete version of the technique.

[Magnificent Ponta]

At the moment, I have difficulty with talking about Ultra Instinct (or Omen, for that matter) using language that could imply that it gives a transformation ki boost in the way that (for instance) SSjB does, and that they're comparable in this way, as that's far from clear to me at this stage.

There's a lot that's still tentative about how the power of Ultra Instinct is supposed to 'work' (I hasten to add that I mean this for the manga in particular); but I get the feeling (now very tentative here) that as it's about the perfectibility of movement quality leading to a vastly superior means of power projection, it could be 'stronger' (i.e., hit harder, move faster, block better) than a form which could actually have 'bigger ki'. So, Goku's SSjB could easily have 'bigger ki' than his Ultra Instinct Omen, even though Omen is better for fighting with in every respect. There's some (very ambiguous) indicators to support that idea, as when Goku juices up Omen with pure power against Moro, he ends up manifesting the Blue power.

If this were basically accepted, then I think it would follow that no matter how much more powerful Goku's become in the interim, his True Ultra Instinct will always be 'stronger' than Omen because it perfects the projection of his power in a way that Omen never really can. To exaggerate my position slightly, I'm tempted to say that even if Goku became a wizened old man with the barest ounce of ki, if he could use Ultra Instinct perfectly, that Goku would beat any Omen Goku, any day. Again, all completely tentative, open, and subject to further evidence of what it's all about; but I feel that this is kind of the point of Ultra Instinct.

[Koitsukai]

At the moment, I have difficulty with talking about Ultra Instinct (or Omen, for that matter) using language that could imply that it gives a transformation ki boost in the way that (for instance) SSjB does, and that they're comparable in this way, as that's far from clear to me at this stage.

There's a lot that's still tentative about how the power of Ultra Instinct is supposed to 'work' (I hasten to add that I mean this for the manga in particular); but I get the feeling (now very tentative here) that as it's about the perfectibility of movement quality leading to a vastly superior means of power projection, it could be 'stronger' (i.e., hit harder, move faster, block better) than a form which could actually have 'bigger ki'. So, Goku's SSjB could easily have 'bigger ki' than his Ultra Instinct Omen, even though Omen is better for fighting with in every respect. There's some (very ambiguous) indicators to support that idea, as when Goku juices up Omen with pure power against Moro, he ends up manifesting the Blue power.

If this were basically accepted, then I think it would follow that no matter how much more powerful Goku's become in the interim, his True Ultra Instinct will always be 'stronger' than Omen because it perfects the projection of his power in a way that Omen never really can. To exaggerate my position slightly, I'm tempted to say that even if Goku became a wizened old man with the barest ounce of ki, if he could use Ultra Instinct perfectly, that Goku would beat any Omen Goku, any day. Again, all completely tentative, open, and subject to further evidence of what it's all about; but I feel that this is kind of the point of Ultra Instinct.

Yes, I think that's fair, I agree. Also, Jiren said that exploiting the openings of the opponent wasn't real strenght, implying Goku wasn't actually wielding more power than he was, but only using it much better.

[Miracles]

Oh wow, we got people who think Base Goku, taking and trading attacks with Ikari Broly, is stronger than Red Vegeta.

Nah, just that the movie examples (from Toriyama's latest most direct installment in the franchise) showcase that combat isn't so cut and dry as "fights always go like [X] because of [Y]".

Vastly different power levels can be put against each other with varying results depending on mentality, mindset, fighting style, intent, fighter-specific traits, etc.

It's not always a case of the guy with a higher power level being untouchable, or that they'll always instantly gut-punch-KO someone weaker.

You are factually Incorrect. Base Broly was going to DIE after just a few attacks from Red Vegeta. That's why he needed to raise his ki through powering up to Ikari mode in order to shrugg off a punch from Red Vegeta. Which showed Broly was stronger, as he was pushing Red Vegeta until Goku interrupted.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

It could also be a change in attitude from Vegeta, who had grown tired of the fight and wanted to finish it off; Super Saiyan Vegeta was simply beating on base Broly earlier but yet wasn't hitting him anywhere near as hard.

The same Broly who was giving SSG Vegeta a run for his money then got even stronger, up to SSB levels in raw power, and yet was mostly just knocking Goku around.

Heck, despite sending base and Super Saiyan Goku flying a lot more, his blows against SSG Goku were doing a lot more and he did huge damage; his shift in focus during the fight seemed to change more than his actual power level, as he was being a lot more brutal by comparison.

It's not a straight equation that's all neat-like; changing combat circumstances can change the flow of a fight on a whim. Freeza is abnormally durable, taking blows from Super Saiyan Broly repeatedly despite being far weaker by comparison. It's really not difficult nor incorrect to say that things may be less binary if it's not a direct clash of power, as we see several examples of such throughout the series.

[GodVegetto91]

Here's a possible power-chain for the manga:

Moro arc UI Goku>Full-Power Moro 73>Suppressed Moro 73>>Full-Power Moro>SSBE Vegeta post-Yardrat>Moro arc Full-Power UI Omen Goku>Moro arc Suppressed UI Omen Goku~ToP UI Goku>>Moro arc SSB Goku>>Saganbo post-Moro absorbed power>>Moro arc Gohan>ToP arc SSB Goku>ToP arc Gohan

I fully agree with this scale. Good one

You agree that UI Omen Goku post-Merus training, even while suppressed, is on the level of his actual UI in the ToP when he fought Jiren at the end? And that Vegeta surpassed this Goku who went full-power? I figured these would be controversial takes, but I guess not.

Training and time makes these things possible. Yes, I do have current UI Omen Goku superior to MUI Goku from the ToP... The fanbase is very divided in this one with about a 50-50 rate I would guess.

[ZombieVito]

Oh wow, we got people who think Base Goku, taking and trading attacks with Ikari Broly, is stronger than Red Vegeta.

Nah, just that the movie examples (from Toriyama's latest most direct installment in the franchise) showcase that combat isn't so cut and dry as "fights always go like [X] because of [Y]".

Vastly different power levels can be put against each other with varying results depending on mentality, mindset, fighting style, intent, fighter-specific traits, etc.

It's not always a case of the guy with a higher power level being untouchable, or that they'll always instantly gut-punch-KO someone weaker.

Yeah, skill can give you some chance if your opponent is far stronger than you. Just like what happened with base Goku vs SS2 Caulifla.

[BagetaSama]

I don't think ToP UI is below current Sign.
We need more to go, but as of now the boost Goku just got is quite big, he went from failing to touch an uninterested Moro73 to one-shot his FP. This of course could be because Goku now has "more" UI than before(if that makes any sense), and should be addressed in the chapter 65, but if not, if the only difference is that now he can use it for longer and without losing steam, then during the ToP Goku got the same kind of boost he got last month.

Anyway, unless a explicit statement says this, I'm inclined to not believe ToP UI has been surpassed by an incomplete version of the technique.

Frankly, I think it's pretty clear that Moro arc Full-Power UI Omen is DEFINITELY above true UI from the ToP. We see that, Goku while using UI Omen, is moving so fast that neither Gohan nor Piccolo can see his movements. The only person that could see his movements, was Moro. We also see that, in the ToP, Gohan and Piccolo can see the movements of everyone until Full-Power Jiren and true UI Goku fought each other. And we see that, once suppressed UI Omen Goku is fighting Moro, 18 asks Piccolo if Goku has "come back stronger than ever". Piccolo says he is not sure, and that he can't sense his Ki. Of course, Piccolo can still get a gauge of how strong Goku is from watching the fight, I mean, he hasn't been able to sense Goku's ki at full-power since Super essentially started. And when gauging it, Piccolo cannot discern whether suppressed Omen, or actual UI from the ToP, were stronger. This was when Goku was suppressed, and when he goes full-power, he seems to have gained a dramatic power-up. This would suggest his full-power Omen form is now far above his old UI form. And Vegeta is stated by Goku to have surpassed this. Of course, Full-Power Moro is stronger than either of them. Once he absorbs 73, his suppressed state that he uses until he fights true UI Goku, is far stronger than his previous full-power, given he can easily tank Omen Goku's attacks at FP. And then, he goes full-power against UI Goku. Therefore:

Moro arc UI Goku>>Full-Power Moro 73>Suppressed Moro 73>Full-Power Moro>SSBE Vegeta post-Yardrat training>Moro arc Full-Power UI Omen Goku>Moro arc suppressed UI Omen Goku~ToP arc UI Goku>=max power Jiren.

[Koitsukai]

I don't think ToP UI is below current Sign.
We need more to go, but as of now the boost Goku just got is quite big, he went from failing to touch an uninterested Moro73 to one-shot his FP. This of course could be because Goku now has "more" UI than before(if that makes any sense), and should be addressed in the chapter 65, but if not, if the only difference is that now he can use it for longer and without losing steam, then during the ToP Goku got the same kind of boost he got last month.

Anyway, unless a explicit statement says this, I'm inclined to not believe ToP UI has been surpassed by an incomplete version of the technique.

Frankly, I think it's pretty clear that Moro arc Full-Power UI Omen is DEFINITELY above true UI from the ToP. We see that, Goku while using UI Omen, is moving so fast that neither Gohan nor Piccolo can see his movements. The only person that could see his movements, was Moro. We also see that, in the ToP, Gohan and Piccolo can see the movements of everyone until Full-Power Jiren and true UI Goku fought each other. And we see that, once suppressed UI Omen Goku is fighting Moro, 18 asks Piccolo if Goku has "come back stronger than ever". Piccolo says he is not sure, and that he can't sense his Ki. Of course, Piccolo can still get a gauge of how strong Goku is from watching the fight, I mean, he hasn't been able to sense Goku's ki at full-power since Super essentially started. And when gauging it, Piccolo cannot discern whether suppressed Omen, or actual UI from the ToP, were stronger. This was when Goku was suppressed, and when he goes full-power, he seems to have gained a dramatic power-up. This would suggest his full-power Omen form is now far above his old UI form. And Vegeta is stated by Goku to have surpassed this. Of course, Full-Power Moro is stronger than either of them. Once he absorbs 73, his suppressed state that he uses until he fights true UI Goku, is far stronger than his previous full-power, given he can easily tank Omen Goku's attacks at FP. And then, he goes full-power against UI Goku. Therefore:

Moro arc UI Goku>>Full-Power Moro 73>Suppressed Moro 73>Full-Power Moro>SSBE Vegeta post-Yardrat training>Moro arc Full-Power UI Omen Goku>Moro arc suppressed UI Omen Goku~ToP arc UI Goku>=max power Jiren.

The thing is the speed feat is quite unrealible. We see that nobody has any problem following SSBE vs Moro(implied to be stronger than Sign), they even start wondering just what the hell is Vegeta doing when they notice he is not strong enough and they can't sense god ki. The final portion of UI vs Jiren was out of everybody's sight too, so those feats leads us nowhere, really.

The bolded part I don't know where is that from, ToP UI has not been mentioned yet in any capacity, not directly or indirectly.

I agree with Ponta's perspective, UI seems to be beyond the normal understanding of power, so unless directly stated I can't buy that an incomplete version surpasses a complete version. Also we have nothing to go by to compare UI and Sign; in this arc the gap has proven to be enormous, as of now nothing implies it wasn't the same during the ToP.
We'll just have to wait and see if they shed some light on this matter. My bet is we won't get anything more, not even a comparison between Moro and past enemies/Beerus.