I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Tai Lung
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1683
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:38 pm

Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Tai Lung » Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:40 am

UI Peter wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:07 am
After reading these last few chapters of the Moro saga and rereading the DBS manga as a whole, its dawned on me just how awful and unimaginative of a writer Toyotaro really is. Its like he has no real grasp of how to carry a plot or develop a character and often just imitates and repeats things from Z in a shallow way. When comparing his version of Super's arcs to the anime, he often starts out in a more interesting way but halfway makes things worse, especially the ToP arc. This guy is clearly not capable of carrying the franchise after Toriyama.
I'm pretty sure some trolls will come accusing you of getting on one side when this comment doesn't say anime is better ...
Matches Malone wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:26 am
Cipher wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:20 am
I am ... pretty baffled by propping up the anime and putting down the manga specifically on a shared criteria of "repeating things from Z in a shallow way" as a negative.

Were we watching the same Super anime?
I'm also surprised of people calling out the manga for things the anime also does, sometimes even worse. When it comes to Toyotaro, I've been a very vocal supporter of him, but at this point even I have to admit he's not doing a good job. With the exception of the BOG movie, Modern DB as a whole has been a train wreck, and Toyotaro isn't the only one to blame for it.
in fact in general it is the other way around ... or at least it was when the anime was ahead I remember many said that the anime had ruined the personality of A 18 become to nami (one piece) for obsessing over money ... aww but when the manga did, so it okay right?
the errors they have are the same as regards the script but with notable differences
even BoG there are notable differences If you have seen the manga version BoG eliminates all the development that the film and the series had with goku, vegeta and beerus so much so that goku and beerus do not have dialogues or the chemistry they had in their fight or the scene where beerus seems to be training with goku does not exist the battle was just grunts or noises

kei17
I Live Here
Posts: 4100
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:23 am

Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by kei17 » Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:51 am

What he's been doing in the current arc is nothing but restaging his favorite moments from the original manga by using his own characters. It's like seeing his public masturbation as a fanboy published officially, which I'm not interested in by any means. It seems that he doesn't care about creating amusing stories or dramas and he's only obsessed with reproducing the superficial seriousness of the old series. I sort of feel pity for him about the time setting he's forced to be stuck with, though. His writing, however, is still awfully amateurish even considering such a limitation. Maybe he was less amateurish when he was an actual amateur. I prefer the Chinese bootleg sequel to this current trash.

User avatar
SupremeKai25
I Live Here
Posts: 2774
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:00 am

It's kind of sad when people defend Toyotaro by saying "well the anime also has bad writing"; because the anime is several writers all doing the same story, so of course there will be contradictions and inconsistencies. Meanwhile Toyotaro is one man, one writer, who has everything under his control. It's not really a fair comparison, nor does it make Toyotaro look good in any way, does it?
I've taken Godhood to a new level. Divinity made perfect. With a body that befits a Kai... One that is INVINCIBLE!

User avatar
TheMikado
I Live Here
Posts: 4886
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 1:28 pm

Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by TheMikado » Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:10 am

So why aren’t we blaming Toriyama?

kei17
I Live Here
Posts: 4100
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:23 am

Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by kei17 » Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:12 pm

TheMikado wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:10 am
So why aren’t we blaming Toriyama?
That is because it does look like Toyotaro started to take more control of the overall production from the current story arc and things got worse and helplessly fan comic-esque.

User avatar
TheMikado
I Live Here
Posts: 4886
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 1:28 pm

Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by TheMikado » Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:31 pm

kei17 wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:12 pm
TheMikado wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:10 am
So why aren’t we blaming Toriyama?
That is because it does look like Toyotaro started to take more control of the overall production from the current story arc and things got worse and helplessly fan comic-esque.
So is Toriyama still approving these or not?

User avatar
Skar
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1171
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:04 pm
Location: US

Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Skar » Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:58 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:00 am
It's kind of sad when people defend Toyotaro by saying "well the anime also has bad writing"; because the anime is several writers all doing the same story, so of course there will be contradictions and inconsistencies. Meanwhile Toyotaro is one man, one writer, who has everything under his control. It's not really a fair comparison, nor does it make Toyotaro look good in any way, does it?
I think it goes both ways. If someone criticizes the anime, they might get the response "but the manga also did X!" as if both would somehow cancel each other out. Usually this argument in any situation doesn't address the criticism and only tries to excuse it by pointing out that it wasn't the only time it was made. Whenever I hear this, I imagine a kid saying "I may have gotten an F but I wasn't the only one in the class!" so he acknowledges that he failed but tries to make it sound not as bad since others also failed.

Lot of people don't have a preference between the two adaptions so someone talking down about one to defend the other won't help to change their opinion about their criticism. I try to neutral towards both and I rather have one good version than two that are average at best with some good scenes.

User avatar
SupremeKai25
I Live Here
Posts: 2774
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:06 pm

Skar wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:58 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:00 am
It's kind of sad when people defend Toyotaro by saying "well the anime also has bad writing"; because the anime is several writers all doing the same story, so of course there will be contradictions and inconsistencies. Meanwhile Toyotaro is one man, one writer, who has everything under his control. It's not really a fair comparison, nor does it make Toyotaro look good in any way, does it?
I think it goes both ways. If someone criticizes the anime, they might get the response "but the manga also did X!" as if both would somehow cancel each other out. Usually this argument in any situation doesn't address the criticism and only tries to excuse it by pointing out that it wasn't the only time it was made. Whenever I hear this, I imagine a kid saying "I may have gotten an F but I wasn't the only one in the class!" so he acknowledges that he failed but tries to make it sound not as bad since others also failed.

Lot of people don't have a preference between the two adaptions so someone talking down about one to defend the other won't help to change their opinion about their criticism. I try to neutral towards both and I rather have one good version than two that are average at best with some good scenes.
I am also neutral, I don't really care. I am an anime watcher but it's not like I'm a Toei fanboy or anything (I've even been very critical of Toei in the past). Regardless, I think it's disingenuous to bring up the anime inconsistencies in a discussion about Toyotaro because... well, as I said, the anime is many different writers all doing the same show. The manga is 3 people: Toyotaro, his editor, and Toriyama. It's like comparing apples to oranges.
I've taken Godhood to a new level. Divinity made perfect. With a body that befits a Kai... One that is INVINCIBLE!

User avatar
Skar
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1171
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:04 pm
Location: US

Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Skar » Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:34 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:06 pm
I am also neutral, I don't really care. I am an anime watcher but it's not like I'm a Toei fanboy or anything (I've even been very critical of Toei in the past). Regardless, I think it's disingenuous to bring up the anime inconsistencies in a discussion about Toyotaro because... well, as I said, the anime is many different writers all doing the same show. The manga is 3 people: Toyotaro, his editor, and Toriyama. It's like comparing apples to oranges.
I agree although it's usually trying to make one look better by talking down about the other. If someone is defending the anime while acting like Toyotaro is the only one doing it, I think it's fair to point out both are guilty and have the potential to improve. If you look at it from the perspective of someone who isn't a diehard DB fan like us, they wouldn't care as much how the two DBS adapations compare to each other and they would probably care more about how DBS in general holds up to other shonen.

UI Peter
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 267
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:19 pm

Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by UI Peter » Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:25 pm

TheMikado wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:10 am
So why aren’t we blaming Toriyama?
Oh he's just as much to blame for approving Toyo's BS, as well as coming up with his own BS lol.

User avatar
Ziegander
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 284
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 6:55 pm

Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Ziegander » Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:40 pm

I don't understand how we got to where we are now with this arc from where we started. Through Namek, the Moro arc was fresh, dynamic, and a really interesting revisit to Frieza arc vibes but with a completely different threat on our hands. With Moro on his way to Earth, and Goku and Vegeta going in opposite directions to train in their own ways to hopefully gain some new abilities to defeat Moro on their own terms, there was a true sense of tension, could they master their abilities before Moro reached the Earth? What if they didn't? How could Gohan and the Z-Fighters have any hope of stalling him at all, let alone stopping him or defeating him?

But what we got from there was a dull, drudge through several months of build up, some ridiculous asspull power ups for Moro that, honestly don't seem remotely necessary, we got an Angel's sacrifice, for very little, Completed Ultra Instinct that felt to many fans to be perhaps too soon, some very bad writing, all finally culminating in Vegeta's efforts being worthless, and an Angel-level villain that seems to be capable of obliterating even UI Goku. Now, surely Vegeta will be instrumental, somehow, in separating Moro from his newly absorbed angelic powers, but however that ends up being the case is going to be contrived. If he couldn't touch Moro powered up by 7-3 how the hell is he supposed to be able to do a thing to Angel Moro? Logically he shouldn't be able to, so Toyo will either retcon his own story, again, or some other convenient bullshit will happen like, idk, Whis will freeze Moro in place so that Vegeta can touch him. It's going to be bad, I have full confidence it's going to suck, and I'm just utterly baffled as to, again, how did we get here? How?
I've begun a full-scale re-write of the Tournament of Power! Here's Ch. 1, here's Ch.
2
, and here's Ch.
3!

Matches Malone
Banned
Posts: 3308
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:12 am

Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Matches Malone » Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:51 am

TheMikado wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:31 pm
So is Toriyama still approving these or not?
Yes, as a recent interview from Jump said he works with Toyo on everything from story to art. I know Toriyama is a better writer than this, so at this point I think he just doesn't care as long as it's not Evolution levels of bad, which is a far cry from how involved he was with BOG.
Ziegander wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:40 pm
I don't understand how we got to where we are now with this arc from where we started.
Everything up until the ending of the last chapter was good, some issues here and there, but overall good. I can't help but wonder if the plan was to originally end things with MUI Goku killing Moro, but something was changed last minute due to the massive outcry by Vegeta babies fans. Everything about this month's chapter just feels off and forced.

Paulo Gabriel
Banned
Posts: 185
Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 3:28 am

Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Paulo Gabriel » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:05 am

Hey, I just finished volume 9 of the manga tankobons. That means I should avoid this and other Super threads coz spoilers?
Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:36 pm
To make it brief: I have no intention of "admitting" what I don't believe is true.
I agree with that. :lol:

Kinokima
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1822
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:02 pm

Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Kinokima » Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:37 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:51 am
Everything up until the ending of the last chapter was good, some issues here and there, but overall good. I can't help but wonder if the plan was to originally end things with MUI Goku killing Moro, but something was changed last minute due to the massive outcry by Vegeta babies fans. Everything about this month's chapter just feels off and forced.

This is just absolutely ridiculous and you know it. And there was no massive outcry by Vegeta fans.

Matches Malone
Banned
Posts: 3308
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:12 am

Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Matches Malone » Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:55 am

Kinokima wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:37 am
This is just absolutely ridiculous and you know it.

There was no massive outcry by Vegeta fans.
I agree, but for a franchise that's going out of its way to give fans what they want, It's still a possibility, although super small.

There was, just check any comment section of a video or article talking about chapter 61.

Kinokima
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1822
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:02 pm

Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Kinokima » Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:59 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:55 am
Kinokima wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:37 am
This is just absolutely ridiculous and you know it.

There was no massive outcry by Vegeta fans.
I agree, but for a franchise that's going out of its way to give fans what they want, It's still a possibility, although super small.

There was, just check any comment section of a video or article talking about chapter 61.

Sure the series bring back fan service favorites: Trunks, Vegito, Gogeta, Broly, Freeza

But plot wise I can remember them ever doing what fans wanted. And there are also a number of different fans all who want different things.


There was far more outcry about this chapter than the Vegeta chapter. Fans being upset is not massive outcry.

UI Peter
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 267
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:19 pm

Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by UI Peter » Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:30 am

Kinokima wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:59 am
Matches Malone wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:55 am
Kinokima wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:37 am
This is just absolutely ridiculous and you know it.

There was no massive outcry by Vegeta fans.
I agree, but for a franchise that's going out of its way to give fans what they want, It's still a possibility, although super small.

There was, just check any comment section of a video or article talking about chapter 61.

Sure the series bring back fan service favorites: Trunks, Vegito, Gogeta, Broly, Freeza

But plot wise I can remember them ever doing what fans wanted. And there are also a number of different fans all who want different things.


There was far more outcry about this chapter than the Vegeta chapter. Fans being upset is not massive outcry.
Exactly. The backlash to these recent chapters is far bigger than anything involving Vegeta vs Moro.

And criticism is not outcry.

User avatar
Tai Lung
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1683
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:38 pm

Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Tai Lung » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:30 pm

TheMikado wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:31 pm
kei17 wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:12 pm
TheMikado wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:10 am
So why aren’t we blaming Toriyama?
That is because it does look like Toyotaro started to take more control of the overall production from the current story arc and things got worse and helplessly fan comic-esque.
So is Toriyama still approving these or not?
well, something that is confirmed is that neither toriyama nor toyotaro know how to write female characters (female warriors)

Matches Malone
Banned
Posts: 3308
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:12 am

Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Matches Malone » Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:13 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:30 pm
well, something that is confirmed is that neither toriyama nor toyotaro know how to write female characters (female warriors)
I'm sure the goat community is very happy with how they've been represented in the current arc, so there's that. :thumbup:

Block88
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 160
Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 3:28 pm

Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Block88 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:21 pm

I’ve been know that since the black arc he’s an awful writer

Post Reply