"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Matches Malone]

It's very weird if Moro can just get Angel powers with no repercussions, that would make 7-3 incredibly overpowered to be capable of handling even the abilities of the beings at the very top of the god hierarchy.

7-3 shouldn't be able to copy such abilities, which is why I think something will backfire with it. If some random robot is able to pull of such a thing, that's honestly just bad writing.

[Magnificent Ponta]

But are you not at least a little concerned to have spent so long on an arc that's done nothing really to develop the characters or introduce any new story elements to Super but has taken us through fully mastering Ultra Instinct to full on facing Angelically-powered foes? Perhaps Angel Moro still isn't on Whis' level, but he's got to be extremely close if not. Where else do you go with a series about fighting after this? It's hard to see many alternatives.

Really, I take the view that how things happen is as important as what happens, as such. For instance, earlier I was worried that Goku might randomly run out of Ultra Instinct when Moro attacked, or that his neck might get grabbed. I'm much more satisfied by what we've seen than by those possibilities. Overall, as I noted elsewhere, I've seen a lot that I expected to dislike quite strongly, when I read it as a bare plot summary, but was actually mollified, and often enough impressed, by the way it was actually done in the end. I don't really expect either this arc or future arcs to be handled markedly differently.

No, I don't know how the chapter is going to end, but I really don't see how a satisfying conclusion can come out of what we've got right now.

And that's really the crux of it, isn't it? Until you see the whole shape of it, it can be very difficult to see where things can go, what of possible value might be left. That's why I think it's so vital to exercise forbearance and suspend judgement until then. For instance, I wasn't expecting to see Roshi do something useful and point the way to Ultra Instinct in Chapter 39, or Goku and Vegeta use perfect teamwork on Jiren in Chapter 41(I really enjoy both of these things, but if it's not your bag, that's fine - like I said before, I won't judge your likes and dislikes). But ultimately, the final shape of things is the most important thing, for me. It's the only way to approach the material fairly, in my opinion.

I don't think they've given us any indication they're up to something mind-blowing.

In fairness, I'm not expecting anything 'mind-blowing' either, but I can't really do much better than repeat JewyB's perfect good sense: 'just because something isn't astounding doesn't make it bad'. That's my general position on the Moro arc. It has a number of demerits, to be sure, such as overly slow pacing from the moment the arc made it to Earth, a villain too much like Piccolo Daimao in the personality department, etc. But I don't think it's actually bad, myself. If there's a cardinal error of the arc, it's the fact that it hasn't done quite enough to ensure sustained enthusiasm throughout (in part because of the pacing issues), but I'm definitely interested in seeing where it goes. And where it actually does go will form a large part of my judgement. And I can't see how it can reasonably, or fairly, be judged otherwise.

Insert wild metaphor here:

Spoiler:

If I make up my mind that I'm going to die eating all of the meatballs, but I drop one, and I keep eating all of the meatballs until they're all gone except for the one on the floor, and then I pat my stomach and give my friend a motivational speech as my heart begins to fail. "You can do it, Steve," I say, "if you pick up that fork, no spaghetti will stand in your way," and then I die? And Steve looks down at the meatball I dropped? How much credibility does anything I just said have now? What was the point of eating all those meatballs? I didn't even eat all the meatballs! Much worse when that meatball empowers the spaghetti and becomes a cosmic spaghetti horror and Steve's life is now in danger.

I'm not sure about the strict aptness of the metaphor, but I'm definitely interested in seeing how Steve gets on.

For the record, I'm not actually saying Merus is dumb, but this decision by the writing team makes him seem dumb. The jewels were so dangerous that Merus broke Angel law knowing he'd be erased from existence and yet he left the only one that touched him fully intact?

I think 'isn't dumb, but seems dumb' is kind of a distinction without a difference. And I think you're overstating Merus's own view of the danger posed by the Copy Power - all he says is, "That copy power is a hassle, so I'll have to seal it off", which doesn't sound like someone who thinks it's the difference between Goku actually winning or losing - and this would be totally consistent with his conviction that Goku can't lose to anyone if he masters Ultra Instinct, no matter what happens. Merus didn't die to seal off the copy power - that was an added, useful bonus, and he succeeded at it (again, we don't know how Moro gets that power back just yet). But he actually died to give Goku his last push into True Ultra Instinct, which is the big deal. I don't think that diminishes Merus at all, in and of itself.

And do we even know yet that Merus is wrong, on that score? Have we seen anything that says for sure that Goku will be straight-up taken out for good in the coming Chapter? A lot of people are banking on Goku pulling out the win with Vegeta ultimately, still. Goku may well be able to stand up to developments, in general. again, I think a lot of context is actually missing here, and I'll go so far as to say that it may even need to wait until the following issue for a true 'full picture'.

[Mister_Popo]

It's very weird if Moro can just get Angel powers with no repercussions, that would make 7-3 incredibly overpowered to be capable of handling even the abilities of the beings at the very top of the god hierarchy.
Guess we'll find out soon enough, if this will backfire on Moro or if he will get off scot-free and they have to defeat him another way.
I mean come on, there can't be that much left of this arc right?

Absorbing and copying are actually two different things.
When Moro absorbs something, he changes shape. As he began to steal energy from other living organisms, he grew younger.
When he absorbed 7-3, he mutated into a form that is halfway between Moro and 7-3.

The trait of 7-3, namely copying traits, did not transform him in the past. 7-3 didn't change shape when he took over Piccolo's traits, for example. Moro absorbed 7-3 did not suddenly resemble Vegeta when he took over his skills.
What is striking now, however, is that Moro has apparently changed shape (white hairs etc), while he has only taken over Merus' properties. Normally he has not absorbed Merus, he has only copied his properties. Is that an inconsequence of the writers, or is it intended to show something underlying is going on here?

It doesn't make sense to me that Merus deliberately doesn't destroy all of Moro's gems at first, and then just disappears. Then he just gave Moro the chance to become an Angel and take the upper hand. Surely we can expect a little more wisdom from Merus?
Then it seems very strange that a magical being like an angel would not be superior in terms of both magic and intelligence to both Moro and definitely 7-3, who do not belong to the divine realm.

Is Merus really 'gone without further thought' is the question i pose myself here.
I hope that an underlying plan will unravel here, because otherwise it would be inconsiderate writing, but that must first be apparent in the conclusion.

[DiscountDabi]

So is the 7-3 copy ability a no limits kinda thing. The only thing I care about for this arc at this point is power-scaling. So, since the ability can copy abilities of literal angels which are high cosmic abilities could he for example grab the “One Above All” by the neck and copy his abilities. Grab Arale and get her gag powers. Its been shown to copy magical abilities and angelic abilities so I can’t see why not.

[Mister_Popo]

So is the 7-3 copy ability a no limits kinda thing. The only thing I care about for this arc at this point is power-scaling. So, since the ability can copy abilities of literal angels which are high cosmic abilities could he for example grab the “One Above All” by the neck and copy his abilities. Grab Arale and get her gag powers. Its been shown to copy magical abilities and angelic abilities so I can’t see why not.

An angel shouldn't let someone copy his abilities like that, unless it's somehow intended.
It's not unthinkable some form of Merus' essence still resides in Moro, because he is a stronger magical entity than Moro and 7-3.

[ZodiacBeast]

If Merus somehow caused Moro to self-destruct, I wouldn't be surprised. Whether it be copying an Angel means that you're bound by the same rules or the copy being faulty because Merus was a divine being, or whatever. I don't think I'd mind.

[Kodoshin]

So is the 7-3 copy ability a no limits kinda thing. The only thing I care about for this arc at this point is power-scaling. So, since the ability can copy abilities of literal angels which are high cosmic abilities could he for example grab the “One Above All” by the neck and copy his abilities. Grab Arale and get her gag powers. Its been shown to copy magical abilities and angelic abilities so I can’t see why not.

An angel shouldn't let someone copy his abilities like that, unless it's somehow intended.
It's not unthinkable some form of Merus' essence still resides in Moro, because he is a stronger magical entity than Moro and 7-3.

Maybe Moro has found someway to circumvent Meerus' HDCP. I'll see myself out

[Kinokima]

I somehow consent in some peoples general criticism about the arc. On the other hand ... We are probably only a few chapters away from next arc, the fact we are still wildly speculating and guessing about how it's going to end and a lot of people are going in pretty intense discussions about it, isn't that bad a result for a 'hugely massively badly written arc'. Toyotaro and Toriyama apparently do somehow seem to captivate our attention till the end with the latest developments.

Most of the current theories are trying to make it turn out better than it appears right now though

[TheMikado]

GT Vegeta was an objectively worse character than his DBS anime counterpart (despite his own writing problems). The funny thing is, despite spending less screentime with Goku in GT, GT Vegeta was actually more obsessed with Goku than his DBS counterpart lol (like in that cringey scene in the 17 arc where Vegeta throws a temper tantrum over the fact that everyone values Goku over him lol:)

https://twitter.com/MJxTV/status/100244 ... 74881?s=19

And Especially in that pointless "Heart of a Prince" episode of GT where he's shown brooding over Goku's superiority and then decides to cheat his way into SSJ4 just to catch up to him (in contrast to DBS Anime Vegeta earning his own unique power-up through a motive that had nothing to do with Goku). So no, he didn't make a new identity away from Goku at all in GT.

This is literally the worst take I’ve ever seen on the episode “Heart of the Prince”

In it, Vegeta laments that his only purpose in life is to serve as a foil to show how powerful Goku is. It’s like if the most Meta takes of a character in a work ever written. Vegeta reviews his entire experience with Goku and then says EXACTLY what the audience has relegated his character to be and then decidedly determines that this will NOT be his role. In that moment Vegeta literally transcends his existence as a created fictional character and his character role. Obviously this is within the context of writing, but the point still stands. An equivalent would be Yamcha wondering if his nothing but a joke to everyone now and then deciding to do something about it.

Anyway, Vegeta’s role as father and family man who decides not to tag along with Goku at all and live completely independent of him fits far far far better with End of Z. Think about it. They hadn’t really talked in 10 years and then suddenly in Super they are hanging around each other every week. It’s weird and inconsistent from the original run across the board for all the characters. And finally Vegeta is the one who suggests fusion with Goku, placing saving the world above his own pride. An acknowledgement that he’s come full circle and an indication that the Earth is in good hands when Goku leaves.

the point of vegeta's development in super is that it is wrong to always depend on goku ... because he will not always be the winner of each battle, something that he understands on the arrival of beerus and therefore he cannot stop training now he started his rivalry again to improve being now much healthier ...

In GT he leaves his obsession with goku ... to dedicate himself to having a peaceful life but that would cost him dearly because he literally ended up being possessed and used by an enemy who overcame him for not training enough ... he realizes the mistake that He committed so he would train hard again although without many results later on ... he got the ssj4 too easy with the help of bulma

now they both have problems ...
In GT his little participation despite that he is a warrior who is always prepared ... he was humiliated even by nuova shenron at the climax of story
In super currently that vegeta hesitates so much in killing an enemy I find it worrisome makes him too similar to goku

His character arc is exactly what you described, he basically decided to give up on his Goku chasing. He made the mistake in thinking that the opposite of chasing Goku was to get lax. That was his mistake. Following Super 17 he questions why he even bothers getting stronger at all. As far as Nuova, Vegeta was already power depleted but not as bad as Goku. Goku struggles against Nuova so a depowered Vegeta wasn’t going to do much better so I really don’t consider that and embarrassment.

I also don’t understand how Vegeta got SSJ4 too easily. It’s not like it requires SSJ3. Is basically the Golden Oozuru form under control which Vegeta always has the ability to master. Goku had to have his tail pulled out to get it so it’s not like Goku didn’t have help too. Arguably Goku had a lot more help to achieve SSJ4.

[TheMikado]

GT Vegeta was an objectively worse character than his DBS anime counterpart (despite his own writing problems). The funny thing is, despite spending less screentime with Goku in GT, GT Vegeta was actually more obsessed with Goku than his DBS counterpart lol (like in that cringey scene in the 17 arc where Vegeta throws a temper tantrum over the fact that everyone values Goku over him lol:)

https://twitter.com/MJxTV/status/100244 ... 74881?s=19

And Especially in that pointless "Heart of a Prince" episode of GT where he's shown brooding over Goku's superiority and then decides to cheat his way into SSJ4 just to catch up to him (in contrast to DBS Anime Vegeta earning his own unique power-up through a motive that had nothing to do with Goku). So no, he didn't make a new identity away from Goku at all in GT.

This is literally the worst take I’ve ever seen on the episode “Heart of the Prince”

In it, Vegeta laments that his only purpose in life is to serve as a foil to show how powerful Goku is. It’s like if the most Meta takes of a character in a work ever written. Vegeta reviews his entire experience with Goku and then says EXACTLY what the audience has relegated his character to be and then decidedly determines that this will NOT be his role. In that moment Vegeta literally transcends his existence as a created fictional character and his character role. Obviously this is within the context of writing, but the point still stands. An equivalent would be Yamcha wondering if his nothing but a joke to everyone now and then deciding to do something about it.

Anyway, Vegeta’s role as father and family man who decides not to tag along with Goku at all and live completely independent of him fits far far far better with End of Z. Think about it. They hadn’t really talked in 10 years and then suddenly in Super they are hanging around each other every week. It’s weird and inconsistent from the original run across the board for all the characters. And finally Vegeta is the one who suggests fusion with Goku, placing saving the world above his own pride. An acknowledgement that he’s come full circle and an indication that the Earth is in good hands when Goku leaves.

You are projecting far more meaning and theme into it than there actually is in there lol.

"Vegeta reviews his entire experience with Goku and then says EXACTLY what the audience has relegated his character to be and then decidedly determines that this will NOT be his role."

Yet he ended up still being exactly that in the Shadow Dragon arc lol. So said "development" in GT went nowhere. And your claim about GT Vegeta not wanting to follow Goku anymore is clearly false considering how he went out of his way to reach SSJ4 just to catch up to him.

Have you ever actually watched GT? Vegeta went SSJ4 to save the earth. Literally the first thing he does isn’t show Goku how much stronger he is, rather he appears with SSJ4 and the first thing he does is suggest fusion. He’s not out to compete against Goku. Lol it’s like people never even watched the show at all. Goku ending GT makes perfect sense as that was his role and time to go. I have no problem with Goku ending the final arc considering what became of him afterwards. There were actual real, true, and meaningful consequences to Goku actually finishing the fight that time.

[DiscountDabi]

Chapter 61 was the death of this arc. Everything since then has been a downwards spiral of crap and dumb decisions. Yes, the existed before that chapter but thats the chapter where Moro died and came back as the worst possible version of himself. After this arc is over, I’m removing everything from chapter 61 and beyond after from my memory and having it in my own headcannon that Vegeta killed Moro and the arc ended there. Because as far as I’m concerned, it was never coming back from there.

[Matches Malone]

Chapter 61 was the death of this arc. Everything since then has been a downwards spiral of crap and dumb decisions. Yes, the existed before that chapter but thats the chapter where Moro died and came back as the worst possible version of himself. After this arc is over, I’m removing everything from chapter 61 and beyond after from my memory and having it in my own headcannon that Vegeta killed Moro and the arc ended there. Because as far as I’m concerned, it was never coming back from there.

I never believed things would end with Vegeta, and generally speaking, the last 3 chapters were great IMO. I do however think the arc should've ended last month with Moro being killed by Goku. That's not to say things can't still end on a high note, but based on what we've seen so far, things feel forced and artificial now.

[Jack Bz]

I do find it puzzling how it's the henchman's power that is causing all the endgame problems as opposed to Moro. I wonder why they didn't make it one of Moro's magical abilities in the first place.

[Matches Malone]

He made the mistake in thinking that the opposite of chasing Goku was to get lax.

This is the one thing I disagree with you on. Vegeta was able to overpower not one, but two Ssjs when he fought Gohan and Goten. Baby picked him as his main body over the other Saiyans, including Goku. During the fight with Super 17, Vegeta outlasted everyone else by far, including Uub who's the reincarnation of Buu.

You could say that if he kept up his training, why didn't he have Ssj3 at that point ? He says why during the fight with Kid Buu, it's too unreliable. He skipped the Grade 3 form Trunks used for that same reason. Based on the above examples, he clearly kept up his training and perfected his base and Ssj2 forms. But what about Ssj4 you ask, why didn't he try to reach it before Super 17 showed up ? I believe he was trying, as Bulma told him she may have figured it out when he tried to follow Goku, implying that they were working on it beforehand.

Have you ever actually watched GT? Vegeta went SSJ4 to save the earth. Literally the first thing he does isn’t show Goku how much stronger he is, rather he appears with SSJ4 and the first thing he does is suggest fusion. He’s not out to compete against Goku. Lol it’s like people never even watched the show at all.

I always ask myself how anyone can think Vegeta was running after Goku in GT, as he showed no interest in him at all. Even when he wanted to fight him after that small tournament, he just laughed with everyone else when Goku said he was too hungry to fight.

[ZodiacBeast]

I do find it puzzling how it's the henchman's power that is causing all the endgame problems as opposed to Moro. I wonder why they didn't make it one of Moro's magical abilities in the first place.

I think Seventhree being powerful and having his own useful technique makes him interesting and I wouldn't mind him somehow returning after this is over. He doesn't have to be good.

If Moro was able to copy everyone's strength and abilities from the start he would have been too overpowered. I don't mind him having this ability after eating 7-3, but he shouldn't have started out with it. Him eating his underling was a desperation move that just happened to pay off, so I don't think it's "cheap".

[Matches Malone]

This is the first time in months where the chapter didn't leak ahead of time.

[son_razor]

This is the first time in months where the chapter didn't leak ahead of time.

Yeah, was thinking the same thing. Maybe it will later today but who knows.

[Xeogran]

This is the first time in months where the chapter didn't leak ahead of time.

I heard someone spammed Toyotaro's tweets with leaks last month, so they strictened the protection.

[FlpShimizu]

This is the first time in months where the chapter didn't leak ahead of time.

I heard someone spammed Toyotaro's tweets with leaks last month, so they strictened the protection.

Yeah well, we deserve it. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes

[MCDaveG]

I somehow consent in some peoples general criticism about the arc. On the other hand ... We are probably only a few chapters away from next arc, the fact we are still wildly speculating and guessing about how it's going to end and a lot of people are going in pretty intense discussions about it, isn't that bad a result for a 'hugely massively badly written arc'. Toyotaro and Toriyama apparently do somehow seem to captivate our attention till the end with the latest developments.

Or maybe they just follow because it's Dragon Ball. I do, just because I am a fan of the original... Have the same situation with Saint Seiya Next Dimension, which is a horrendous sequel, prolonged, by the original author.