Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Triggered Vegeta]

I have it UI Goku(current) > Gogeta Blue(Broly) >/= Moro(7-3) > Broly >\= LB Jiren > Prime Moro >> FP Jiren

Moro(7-3) is a bit iffy for me. Stated to be the toughest... But I don't believe Gogeta was using his full power... More like 80% imo. This fight can prob go either way, but it might go to Gogeta.. high diff.

[Skar]

I think all these estimates could be accurate since the gap between these characters seems to be small. If Beerus is a 1, all the characters implied to be stronger than him (Vegetto, Jiren, Broly, Gogeta, MUI, and Angel Moro), might still be between 1 and 2.

Also this chapter implies that MUI is more of a tier than a set multiplier. Moro was stronger than Omen Goku and is only about equal to MUI after gaining the ability himself. If Beerus is still intended to have a rematch with Goku, Toriyama might have him master UI which could put him above the strongest antagonists we've seen since BoG.

[Hugo Boss]

On the subject of how Beerus compares to Moro, someone on Facebook mentioned that Goku witnessed Beerus & the other destroyers duke it out during the Zen Exhibition Match in the manga. I believe it was stated that the Gods were going all out as per instruction from the Grand Priest. If this holds up this would directly disprove the common talking point that Goku hasn't seen Beerus at full power. Meaning he could've easily compared Moro 7x3's power to what he felt from Beerus & co. Back then. Even if he didn't see Beerus at FP I'm assuming he could make an educated guess based on what he saw. So maybe: Moro 7x3 > Beerus?

Just some food for thought.

Actually, there was a point the fight became too difficult for him to keep up, so Goku doesn’t have the full knowledge. Not to say he can’t make an educated guess based on what he saw, but his assessment might be off, to an unknown extent.

Fair point. However keep in mind just because he wasn't able to follow the battle, doesn't mean he couldn't sense it. He should've been able to debate Beerus's power & then compare that to the power he sensed from Moro. So I personally feel it holds up.

He can’t sense the ki of a god, he told that to Toppo in the manga. You might be confusing it with the anime, where they learn that ability.

[GodVegetto91]

I have it UI Goku(current) > Gogeta Blue(Broly) >/= Moro(7-3) > Broly >\= LB Jiren > Prime Moro >> FP Jiren

Moro(7-3) is a bit iffy for me. Stated to be the toughest... But I don't believe Gogeta was using his full power... More like 80% imo. This fight can prob go either way, but it might go to Gogeta.. high diff.

There’s no reason why Prime Moro should be weaker than Jiren..

Jiren is 100% trash now. He appeared two arcs ago. If Moro-73 is confirmed stronger than Jiren, than so is Prime Moro, who was stated to be at a level that you can’t reach with training alone. And a “Reborn” Vegeta delivered a full power punch to Prime Moro’s stomach and it didn’t even phase him!

Prime Moro did much better against a stronger Vegeta than Jiren did against an astronomically weaker one!

Also, he’s the next enemy.

(If Goku’s statement is correct and it REALLY means Moro 73 > Broly....)

Than Occam’s Razor takes over here and says that the next enemy is always stronger than the previous one UNLESS something else contradicts it!

So Moro 73 > Prime Moro > Broly >>>>> Jiren.

[Triggered Vegeta]

I have it UI Goku(current) > Gogeta Blue(Broly) >/= Moro(7-3) > Broly >\= LB Jiren > Prime Moro >> FP Jiren

Moro(7-3) is a bit iffy for me. Stated to be the toughest... But I don't believe Gogeta was using his full power... More like 80% imo. This fight can prob go either way, but it might go to Gogeta.. high diff.

There’s no reason why Prime Moro should be weaker than Jiren..

Jiren is 100% trash now. He appeared two arcs ago. If Moro-73 is confirmed stronger than Jiren, than so is Prime Moro, who was stated to be at a level that you can’t reach with training alone. And a “Reborn” Vegeta delivered a full power punch to Prime Moro’s stomach and it didn’t even phase him!

Prime Moro did much better against a stronger Vegeta than Jiren did against an astronomically weaker one!

Also, he’s the next enemy.

(If Goku’s statement is correct and it REALLY means Moro 73 > Broly....)

Than Occam’s Razor takes over here and says that the next enemy is always stronger than the previous one UNLESS something else contradicts it!

So Moro 73 > Prime Moro > Broly >>>>> Jiren.

I'm just going by what was stated by Goku... Moro(7-3) was the only one compared to his past foes as the toughest.. not His prior form. Also Jiren at least could fight UI completed so you have to give him that... Even withstood those strong blows. Moro(Prime) falls somewhere in the middle between UI Sign and UI(Complete)

In the anime it will likely be the same. UI Goku(current) >\= Moro(Merus) >> Moro(7-3) > UI Goku(enraged) = FPSS Broly > LB Jiren > Moro(Prime) > UI Sign (Phase 4) > FP Jiren(Top) >\= UI Sign(Phase 3) Also I don't believe the gap is that big between Phase 3 & Phase 4. Enough to defeat, yes but not enough to one shot.

In the manga I don't have UI omen(Moro) on par with UI Complete(Top) as we've seen the gap between those two forms is huge. Moro can still be stronger than Omen, enough to toy with Goku... But way weaker than UI(Complete) Also I don't have Broly leagues above LB Jiren... They are within the same tier... But I'll give the edge to Broly in a high diff fight with Anime Jiren. Broly > LB Jiren > FP Jiren > SS Broly

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I definitely think we have to remember to separate the anime and manga where appropriate. For example, Jiren's normal full-power is seen represented in the manga and anime well-enough, but then his limit-breaking power-up puts him on the same level as Ultra Instinct whereas Jiren's normal full-power hasn't accomplished in either medium.

So 7-3 Moro is definitely stronger than the manga's full-power Jiren and SSFP Broly, but he may or may not be stronger than the anime-exclusive Beyond Full-Power Jiren. Of course, by how much is in contention seeing as how these latest 3 beyond-GoD-level opponents are vaguely stronger than that level. I'd hazard a guess that they occupy the same general tier and that a battle between any given party won't really be significantly affected by the differences in power, much like how all the Gods of Destruction aren't that far off from one another overall despite there being some power differences.

The Ultra Instinct of the anime definitely seems to be similar to the Ultra Instinct of the manga, at least as far as the completed form goes. I'm also in the camp that there isn't any significant difference in Ultra Instinct between the 2 times it's appeared in the manga.

[Dragon Ball Daisuki]

I personally don’t see Moro-73 as being much different than FP Moro, aside from the extra abilities, since he’s basically just Old Moro + FP Moro.

Old Moro was at worst SSJ-level and at best SSG-Level, so even allowing the latter, the increase would hardly be worth mentioning.

At minimum, FP Moro is SSB level (I personally have him as tens of times stronger than TOP SSB), so the best case scenario would be going from 50 to 51 (a 2% increase). Adjusting for his increased power after consuming “countless” worlds, it should be more like a 0.02% or 0.002% increase.

Again, this is all from the standpoint that Old Moro is comparable to SSG, when in all likelihood he’s probably closer to SSJ.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Thanks Ponta!

That distinction helps a little - if I’m understanding correctly, putting everything together, since punches and kicks count as copied moves as well, 7-3 has the same “attack power” and movesets as the person he copies, but it’s not a perfect copy of the person’s “battle power” since things like defense and speed stay the same? Do I have that right?

That's how I understand it, yes. Not only does it seem to fit with the evidence presented, but also the themes of the arc - OG73-I steals abilities by copying them, but doesn't have the actual power of the people he's copying, so he's actually inferior to those who earned that power.

[Koitsukai]

It could be possible that Prime Moro was on the level of Beerus, Broly, Jiren, worthy of a probably-stronger-than-the-others statement, and as 7-3Moro he broke away from that particular group. Not much stronger than them, but enough to be it without a doubt.

[Miracles]

Toriyama's eternal law: The "strongest" enemy is "always" current. That's why Goku said Moro is the strongest [toughest, but in context, he's talking strength] he has ever faced. I warned yall about this.

Toriyama's plot point: Oracle fish: "Goku will become a formidable rival for Beerus."

These two facts are not going away.

[Xeno Goku Black]

If Moro has never trained before, then why does he somehow have the fighting skills to match Goku when he's supposed to be an expert martial artist?

[Hugo Boss]

If Moro has never trained before, then why does he somehow have the fighting skills to match Goku when he's supposed to be an expert martial artist?

It’s probably a bonus of Ultra Instinct. And Moro has millions of years of experience ahead.

[Skar]

Toriyama's eternal law: The "strongest" enemy is "always" current. That's why Goku said Moro is the strongest [toughest, but in context, he's talking strength] he has ever faced. I warned yall about this.

Yep we have actual confirmation now. No need to look through old interviews or provide alternative interpretations of direct statements because the story has Goku flat-out confirm it. If what the Oracle Fish said still holds true then we should be expecting a rematch between Goku and Beerus before the end of the series. Would you say it's still true even if that rematch never happens?

[Cipher]

If Moro has never trained before, then why does he somehow have the fighting skills to match Goku when he's supposed to be an expert martial artist?

The same reason Freeza has apparently never trained but is also a martial-arts expert.

Or the androids, who were just random kids.

[Hugo Boss]

If what the Oracle Fish said still holds true then we should be expecting a rematch between Goku and Beerus before the end of the series. Would you say it's still true even if that rematch never happens?

Let’s wait the next chapters. It might be fulfilled through a future rematch or some acknowledgement. Beerus already started to acknowledge him, he just didn’t admit yet. But if they don’t touch the prophecy anymore, it would be a forgotten plot point, which would be bad writing.

[Cipher]

Where is everyone getting this idea from from that the Oracle Fish predicted a rematch between Goku and Beerus? He just said Goku and Vegeta would eventually become rivals for him.

[GodVegetto91]

Where is everyone getting this idea from from that the Oracle Fish predicted a rematch between Goku and Beerus? He just said Goku and Vegeta would eventually become rivals for him.

Same thing..

[The Undying]

The thing about the Oracle Fish's prophecy is that it was said back when Goku and Vegeta were still very much unambiguously eclipsed by Beerus in fighting ability. That's before it was mentioned that Broly is probably even stronger than Beerus, and before Goku fully mastered Ultra Instinct in the current manga arc.

The prophecy doesn't, however, disprove the idea that they've already reached said "formidable rival" territory, nor does it mean that Beerus is incapable of eventually mastering UI himself.

I'm still not convinced there'd be a rematch between them at any point, but if it does happen, I'm almost positive it would involve an improved version of Beerus fighting one of the two.

[TobyS]

If Moro has never trained before, then why does he somehow have the fighting skills to match Goku when he's supposed to be an expert martial artist?

The same reason Freeza has apparently never trained but is also a martial-arts expert.

Or the androids, who were just random kids.

Freeza never trained for power but he did say no one has put a scratch on me besides my parent/s so perhaps unless he meant his dad disciplined him, pre surpassing him, I took it to mean he gave him combat training.

Unless Freeza is a natural pordigy and learns on the go, but that's not shown. I'm sure his dad taught him the basics imo.

[TobyS]

Toriyama's eternal law: The "strongest" enemy is "always" current. That's why Goku said Moro is the strongest [toughest, but in context, he's talking strength] he has ever faced. I warned yall about this.

Yep we have actual confirmation now. No need to look through old interviews or provide alternative interpretations of direct statements because the story has Goku flat-out confirm it. If what the Oracle Fish said still holds true then we should be expecting a rematch between Goku and Beerus before the end of the series. Would you say it's still true even if that rematch never happens?

I mean the entire plot of Yo son Goku! was weaker villains arriving.