"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Kinokima]

Moro is NOT able to easy contain UI that is why he had to find a new body Earth to contain it. That was the whole point of the ending of the chapter

Rebel Instinct did not say that Moro could contain Ultra Instinct - he said Moro contained and wielded a power high enough to beat Omen easily, without training for it or doing much of anything by way of preparation. If he can be that powerful with no effort, imagine how powerful he could be if he put the work in.

Okay you are ignoring that while Goku & Vegeta had been off training Moro had also been busy not training but eating countless souls and planets. That is why he could fight against Goku in UI Sign

After Vegeta started to separate those souls Moro no longer would have been able to fight Goku until he absorbed 7:3 who had a back up copy of Moro.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Moro is NOT able to easy contain UI that is why he had to find a new body Earth to contain it. That was the whole point of the ending of the chapter

Rebel Instinct did not say that Moro could contain Ultra Instinct - he said Moro contained and wielded a power high enough to beat Omen easily, without training for it or doing much of anything by way of preparation. If he can be that powerful with no effort, imagine how powerful he could be if he put the work in.

Okay you are ignoring that while Goku & Vegeta had been off training Moro had also been busy not training but eating countless souls and planets. That is why he could fight against Goku in UI Sign.

Yup, and that's the level of power his body can wield easily without even training - which is the point Rebel Instinct was making.

[Kinokima]

Rebel Instinct did not say that Moro could contain Ultra Instinct - he said Moro contained and wielded a power high enough to beat Omen easily, without training for it or doing much of anything by way of preparation. If he can be that powerful with no effort, imagine how powerful he could be if he put the work in.

Okay you are ignoring that while Goku & Vegeta had been off training Moro had also been busy not training but eating countless souls and planets. That is why he could fight against Goku in UI Sign.

Yup, and that's the level of power his body can wield easily without even training - which is the point Rebel Instinct was making.

So basically Goku is impressed that Moro is a glutton

[Magnificent Ponta]

Okay you are ignoring that while Goku & Vegeta had been off training Moro had also been busy not training but eating countless souls and planets. That is why he could fight against Goku in UI Sign.

Yup, and that's the level of power his body can wield easily without even training - which is the point Rebel Instinct was making.

So basically Goku is impressed that Moro is a glutton

...To reiterate, the point is about the level of power that is being wielded, not how he got said power. For a body to wield that level of power with facility and easily wreck a level of power Goku worked his ass off for, despite being untrained to use it in any way, is an impressive prospect for what such a body could do if it actually did train.

Perhaps it would be instructive to compare with Saganbo, who literally explodes into a squidgy mess when gifted energy that isn't even on SSjB level? It's not something that just any level of potential can do.

[Kinokima]

Yup, and that's the level of power his body can wield easily without even training - which is the point Rebel Instinct was making.

So basically Goku is impressed that Moro is a glutton

...To reiterate, the point is about the level of power that is being wielded, not how he got said power. For a body to wield that level of power with facility and easily wreck a level of power Goku worked his ass off for, despite being untrained to use it in any way, is an impressive prospect for what such a body could do if it actually did train.

Perhaps it would be instructive to compare with Saganbo, who literally explodes into a squidgy mess when gifted energy that isn't even on SSjB level? It's not something that just any level of potential can do.

Okay and here is the difference between Moro & Saganbo. Moro is an ancient evil wizard whose very power comes from eating those countless souls and planets. He is not just some random powerful guy.

[Magnificent Ponta]

So basically Goku is impressed that Moro is a glutton

...To reiterate, the point is about the level of power that is being wielded, not how he got said power. For a body to wield that level of power with facility and easily wreck a level of power Goku worked his ass off for, despite being untrained to use it in any way, is an impressive prospect for what such a body could do if it actually did train.

Perhaps it would be instructive to compare with Saganbo, who literally explodes into a squidgy mess when gifted energy that isn't even on SSjB level? It's not something that just any level of potential can do.

Okay and here is the difference between Moro & Saganbo. Moro is an ancient evil wizard whose very power comes from eating those countless souls and planets. He is not just some random powerful guy.

True enough, but how does that speak to why Goku shouldn't be impressed at the heights that his power can reach? It's not like being an experienced soul-eating wizard guarantees you a power ceiling high enough to stomp Omen, or anything. It's an impressive amount of power, however you slice it.

[The Undying]

What even is this discussion?

Goku knows Moro didn't train for his power; it's the whole point of his dialogue, and it's why he's disappointed that someone with such massive potential would steal strength as opposed to training properly for it, which would take him further.

Literally everything in the chapter - from the senzu scene to Moro's body suffering the drawbacks from Ultra Instinct - revolves around this one message.

[Kinokima]

What even is this discussion?

Goku knows Moro didn't train for his power; it's the whole point of his dialogue, and it's why he's disappointed that someone with such massive potential would steal strength as opposed to training properly for it, which would take him further.

Literally everything in the chapter - from the senzu scene to Moro's body suffering the drawbacks from Ultra Instinct - is centered around this one message.

And all of what you are saying is literally brought up in the discussion. None of this was missed

[The Undying]

And all of what you are saying is literally brought up in the discussion. None of this was missed

Yes, brought up by others and clearly ignored by you.

The amount of power Moro can contain before his body can no longer withstand it shows that his potential as a fighter is enormous. That's what Goku's impressed by, not his methods of obtaining said power.

[Kinokima]

And all of what you are saying is literally brought up in the discussion. None of this was missed

Yes, brought up by others and clearly ignored by you.

The amount of power Moro can contain before his body can no longer withstand it shows that his potential as a fighter is enormous. That's what Goku's impressed by, not his methods of obtaining said power.

Excuse me you don’t need to be rude. If anything you are the one who ignored everything I said

I NEVER said Goku was impressed with Moro stealing energy. I even brought up that I agree with the themes of training vs stealing energy brought up in this chapter.

I am saying it’s stupid that Goku is so impressed by Moro’s potential. He’s a fricking ancient wizard built to eat souls & planets that then transfers to power. Again I brought up Broly whose growth is enormous in a short time frame in comparison to Moro.

But whatever the next most powerful character will come along and Goku will forget all about Moro’s potential.

[The Undying]

I NEVER said Goku was impressed with Moro stealing energy.

So basically Goku is impressed that Moro is a glutton

???

Again, what even is this discussion?

I am saying it’s stupid that Goku is so impressed by Moro’s potential. He’s a fricking ancient wizard built to eat souls & planets that then transfers to power.

Neither of these two sentences have anything to do with each other. He specifically criticizes Moro for your second sentence and praises him for your first (which, to reiterate, is the upper limits of how much power he can naturally sustain, which he can extend even further if he trained instead of stealing).

You're repeatedly conflating two completely distinct concepts. I don't understand why this is confusing.

[Kinokima]

I NEVER said Goku was impressed with Moro stealing energy.

So basically Goku is impressed that Moro is a glutton

???

Again, what even is this discussion?

I am saying it’s stupid that Goku is so impressed by Moro’s potential. He’s a fricking ancient wizard built to eat souls & planets that then transfers to power.

Neither of these two sentences have anything to do with each other. He specifically criticizes Moro for your second sentence and praises him for your first (which, to reiterate, is the upper limits of how much power he can sustain, which he can extend even further if he trained instead of stealing).

You're repeatedly conflating two completely distinct concepts. I don't understand why this is confusing.

Literally everything you brought up in your post I brought up in my INITIAL post. I am not conflating anything. I understand what the story is saying. I am saying I still find it stupid. You can understand what a story is trying to say and still disagree with it.

“ Moro is actually NOT a strong opponent. Goku himself brings it up in this chapter when he lectures Moro for never training ”


“Even Goku saying Moro is the strongest opponent he ever fought is objectively false. Moro would be nothing without all the power he stole. I guess it depends on how you look at it but I don’t see why Goku would be impressed by Moro’s power in the way he was Freeza or Vegeta for example. The argument seems to be that if Moro trained he would be much stronger, maybe so but you could say that about any Opponent.”

Then the argument becomes Moro is so impressive because he can eat so much stolen energy and I am saying yeah because he is an ancient wizard and had millennia to wield that power which is why he is able to get this far without training. I am not seeing what is so impressive about him compared to so many other of Goku’s powerful opponents.


Looks like you only read one or two posts which proves my point you are the one who ignored most of what I said. Hence you not understanding the glutton line was me 1/2 joking in response to Goku supposedly being impressed with Moro’s power to be able eat so many souls and planets.

[The Undying]

I am saying yeah because he is an ancient wizard

There is no "because". The story never once provides an explanation for Moro's potential, nor does it need to; we just know he has it, perhaps despite being an ancient wizard rather than because he's one.

Not that it matters. Goku doesn't know why the glass is so large. He's just complimenting the size of the glass, while criticizing how Moro pours his water.

The fact that multiple people have to explain this to you is baffling, my dude.

you not understanding the glutton line was me 1/2 joking

Sorry, but the Trump-esque "I was being sarcastic" defense doesn't fly with me. Say what you mean and mean what you say.

[Ziegander]

I feel like this discussion is sort of skirting the issue that Dragon Ball has never really been about "how much energy a body can naturally sustain" until Ultra Instinct was introduced, and how the notion of being impressed by a stat like "theoretical Ki maximum" is neither something these characters have ever been shown to care about nor a concept that has ever mattered in-universe to any degree.

I feel like it's a little disingenuous to claim how obvious it is that Goku is impressed with Moro's body's "theoretical Ki maximum" as that's just such a wildly esoteric concept nearly alien to the series (if not entirely).

In fact, if I may be so bold, I would say that one of my major concerns with this whole arc has been this notion of just throwing in a concept or ability or particular detail and just running with it like that. Goku being impressed with how much energy Moro's body can withstand, it just isn't directly founded in the past of Dragon Ball. Goku could have been impressed that Moro could use Ultra Instinct the way he did without just collapsing in pain to near death, and maybe that's how the writer intended for that scene to read, but it isn't the way the scene was written.

There are several examples of this sprinkled throughout the arc, but some of the other examples that thoroughly irked not just me but many others include how Moro "fused" with 7-3 by physically eating him and how he fused with Planet Earth. We're told he absorbs life force. We're shown how he does that. And then he just pulls two completely different power-amps out of his butt that have little (if anything at all) to do with absorbing lifeforce, because... magic?

There's also no in-story evidence to show that Moro's "body" would actually improve to any measurable degree through training, either in physical fighting skill or in this ethereal "potential to store godly energy" stat that's being thrown around. Moro is an evil wizard. Yeah, he's tougher than Bibidi or Babidi ever were, but how the properties of his "base form" compares to, say, a mutant, martial arts prodigy like Frieza's is completely unknown and not properly illuminated by the written story. We don't actually have any bearing on how powerful Moro was when he was sealed by the Grand Supreme Kai 10 million years ago, even though it's implied that he was very strong at the time, was he stronger 10 million years ago than he was when he fought UI Sign Goku? Was he stronger 10 millions years ago than he was after he ate 7-3 or was Moro 7-3 stronger than that? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the story, as written, ever clearly spells that out. A starved "base form" Moro could compete with SSG, and yeah, that's quite formidable, but who's to say martial arts training would actually increase Moro's battle power the way it does for Goku and Vegeta?

[Kinokima]

The fact that multiple people have to explain this to you is baffling, my dude.

The other people I was having a discussion with I may not have agreed with but they were understanding and responding directly to what I was saying. Unlike you who jumped in misunderstood everything that was being said

No one was explaining anything to me. We were having a friendly debate until you decided to jump in

you not understanding the glutton line was me 1/2 joking

Sorry, but the Trump-esque "I was being sarcastic" defense doesn't fly with me. Say what you mean and mean what you say.

I DID mean what I said. You misunderstood the post as me saying Goku was impressed that Moro was stealing energy

It’s obvious you did not read the whole thread. I was responding to Ponta who was saying that Goku was impressed at the AMOUNT of energy Moro could take in. Hence me jokingly adding the Glutton line. You are the only one here who misunderstood

Literally No one was saying that Goku was impressed that Moro stole energy. That was never part of the discussion until you randomly brought it up.

[The Undying]

I feel like it's a little disingenuous to claim how obvious it is that Goku is impressed with Moro's body's "theoretical Ki maximum" as that's just such a wildly esoteric concept nearly alien to the series (if not entirely).

I don't think it's anything more complicated than "this is Moro's limit, he can't handle anything beyond that limit, but Goku is nonetheless impressed by that limit", which I'd say the chapter is clear about conveying.

You can argue that there's little precedence for it in the original series, but I think that's somewhat trifling over what's really a simple character beat.

No one was explaining anything to me.

An entire page has consisted of people explaining things to you. I'm not going to spend any further than this last post elaborating how you misconstrued a pretty simple argument, so pay attention:

The first response to your glutton "joke" was "To reiterate, the point is about the level of power that is being wielded, not how he got said power". Obviously, I wasn't the first person to put forth that objection.

Earlier, you blatantly ignored what Rebel Instinct said about Moro's potential by randomly mentioning that he couldn't contain UI, which wasn't disputed by anyone. You misunderstood his point and took it out of context, but you, after being promptly corrected, doubled down and then proceeded to accuse the next user of "ignoring" a point that was actually being made to you in the first place (among other things) while simultaneously dodging Rebel Instinct's original point that the concept of potential is unrelated to any of the objections you were proposing for why you didn't "buy" it. I actually had to bring that up again since you didn't really address it - see my previous reply.

Maybe stick to the actual point of contention instead of wasting my time with revisionist arguments about how you were totally misunderstood, and totally not misunderstanding everyone else.

I was responding to Ponta who was saying that Goku was impressed at the AMOUNT of energy Moro could take in. Hence me jokingly adding the Glutton line.

Dawg, do you even know what "glutton" means?

It's a behavior-related term, not a capacity-related one. That's why you were immediately replied to with the same argument I made afterwards. It's not like I was the only one to interpret it that way.

You're clearly confused, but I'm not going to drag this out any further since you keep getting off-subject.

[BWri]

What you call that 'disconnect' is actually why it's well written.
It's an ironic situation, with thorough understanding of Gokus character.

It appears to be, when taken literal Moro is 'Gokus strongest challenge' and 'Goku wants to redeem Moro and talk him into prison'.

But there is actually more going on 'behind the scenes' here: Moro is no longer able to put up a challenge for Goku. First and foremost he wants to fight him when he's at his strongest, because he knows of the damage he received during his fight with Merus. That's Gokus honour as a martial artist.

But moreover and that's where the irony kicks in: he could potentially become Gokus strongest challenge, if he would train. If he combines training with magic, he may be able to fight on pair with MUI Goku.
If Moro is not dead he could return one day to put up a more descent challenge. That idea excites Goku.

The problem with this is, the power that Moro has that you say excites Goku is built on the backs of what has to be billions of innocent (and not so innocent) lives at this point. Goku knows this. Goku should not respect this power in any way, not even if it can fuel someone into a potential rivalry. Goku's shown disgust for wanton killing before on a much smaller scale so why would he respect the power of someone who is fueled by planetary death?

It's a disconnect on every level. The mercy thing fits, but the sensu does not. Goku's killed or helped kill plenty of actual fighters who could have been potential rivals for a lot less. There's the entire RR Army (could have made more metallic soldiers and Androids like 8er), Piccolo's Spawn, King Piccolo, Raditz, Future Frieza, Future Cold, Cell, Yakon, Buu. The movies and GT take it even further. Goku seems to have an overall decent sense of knowing when to kill to avoid further destruction/death and furthermore, he seems to have learned his overall lesson from Cell. Notice, he never offered Frieza a sensu bean during Frieza's invasion. He only offered him a chance to stop fighting. There's no reason he shouldn't have done the same with Moro.

If I could use a wrestling term, the ending of this arc is being overbooked. It's clearly being written to make sense of a conclusion instead of flowing naturally. We'll see how it ends. Maybe it'll be revealed that Moro has no choice but to consume in order to survive. Doubtful, but unless Toyotaro is trying to get us to feel sympathy for Moro, this outrageous level of Goku mercy only serves to weaken Goku's character even more from his peak in Z.

[Mister_Popo]

What you call that 'disconnect' is actually why it's well written.
It's an ironic situation, with thorough understanding of Gokus character.

It appears to be, when taken literal Moro is 'Gokus strongest challenge' and 'Goku wants to redeem Moro and talk him into prison'.

But there is actually more going on 'behind the scenes' here: Moro is no longer able to put up a challenge for Goku. First and foremost he wants to fight him when he's at his strongest, because he knows of the damage he received during his fight with Merus. That's Gokus honour as a martial artist.

But moreover and that's where the irony kicks in: he could potentially become Gokus strongest challenge, if he would train. If he combines training with magic, he may be able to fight on pair with MUI Goku.
If Moro is not dead he could return one day to put up a more descent challenge. That idea excites Goku.

The problem with this is, the power that Moro has that you say excites Goku is built on the backs of what has to be billions of innocent (and not so innocent) lives at this point. Goku knows this. Goku should not respect this power in any way, not even if it can fuel someone into a potential rivalry. Goku's shown disgust for wanton killing before on a much smaller scale so why would he respect the power of someone who is fueled by planetary death?

What excites Goku, is not how Moro acquires the power.
It's the fact Moro is the only one he could think of (except maybe Beerus, but that's not a real antagonist anymore) who may be able to challenge him some day now he has mastered UI.

The chapter is called 'Son Goku, Earthling'.
In the latest chapter he mastered a skill that's beyond the capacity of the Gods.
In this chapters it shows, although he has no bad intend, Goku is still a mere Earthling / mortal with his own flaws.
The Peter Parker-principle "With great power comes great responsibility" isn't really respected here.
And that's also how reality works: people don't always necessary mean to do others harm, but they do often have their own personal agenda. By furfilling their own more selfish needs, they may give a disadvantage or even threat to others.

[Kinokima]

No one was explaining anything to me.

An entire page has consisted of people explaining things to you. I'm not going to spend any further than this last post elaborating how you misconstrued a pretty simple argument, so pay attention:

The first response to your glutton "joke" was "To reiterate, the point is about the level of power that is being wielded, not how he got said power". Obviously, I wasn't the first person to put forth that objection.

Earlier, you blatantly ignored what Rebel Instinct said about Moro's potential by randomly mentioning that he couldn't contain UI, which wasn't disputed by anyone. You misunderstood his point and took it out of context, but you, after being promptly corrected, doubled down and then proceeded to accuse the next user of "ignoring" a point that was actually being made to you in the first place (among other things) while simultaneously dodging Rebel Instinct's original point that the concept of potential is unrelated to any of the objections you were proposing for why you didn't "buy" it. I actually had to bring that up again since you didn't really address it - see my previous reply.

Maybe stick to the actual point of contention instead of wasting my time with revisionist arguments about how you were totally misunderstood, and totally not misunderstanding everyone else.

The only thing I MISREAD was Rebel saying UI Sign instead of UI . But it doesn’t change what I had issue with this chapter

The debate was about whether Moro can really be said to be the strongest opponent Goku ever fought or even the one with the most potential. The potential is completely tied to the fact that he can eat a lot of stolen energy and because he can eat that energy he gains a lot of power.

The idea that Moro is the “strongest opponent” Goku ever fought is only brought up in this chapter and I can disagree with the chapter’s premise while understanding what the chapter is saying.

I don’t agree that a villain who literally steals energy from others is the strongest opponent Goku ever faced. And I don’t agree with the premise that because he is capable of stealing & wielding a lot of energy that is enough to show his potential compared to other opponents Goku fought. I don’t have any issue with Goku telling Moro he could be stronger with training and liked that aspect of the chapter.

And again I didn’t say everyone was misunderstanding me. I said you came in and completely misunderstood the debate that was taking place by bringing up things that no one was even discussing in the 1st place. You keep bringing up others when I only said you were misunderstanding.

It's a behavior-related term, not a capacity-related one. That's why you were immediately replied to with the same argument I made afterwards. It's not like I was the only one to interpret it that way.

You're clearly confused, but I'm not going to drag this out any further since you keep getting off-subject

Definition of Glutton:

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/glutton

“a person with a remarkably great desire or capacity for something”

Sometimes words have more than one meaning.

Regardless I never implied or said anything about Goku being impressed that Moro steals energy from others.

I’m not confused you are! And literally the conversation would have been done already because I didn’t reply to Ponta’s last post. But then you decided to randomly jump in adding nothing new to the conversation.

[Magnificent Ponta]

The potential is completely tied to the fact that he can eat a lot of stolen energy and because he can eat that energy he gains a lot of power.

But it's not simply that he can eat a lot; it's that he can use that insane amount of power without any trouble that is the important thing here. Yakon can eat a lot, but it doesn't actually mean anything.

Similarly, characters like Goku and Kale and Saganbo (yes, and eventually Moro, or more properly the OG73-I bit of him, I suppose) can somehow find their way to levels of power that exist well beyond their own limits, but just can't use it right, and end up only damaging themselves. Super in particular has been driving home this particular point since at least chapter 37 (and most particularly since chapter 39, when Jiren and Roshi make it as plain as day for us).

The distinction between just having power and actually wielding it is a real and relevant one to Dragon Ball Super in general, and Moro does both, at a higher level than any other antagonist to date, which naturally piques Goku's interest (irrespective of the negative judgement he also makes). I can't agree that this idea, when expressed as a plot beat, is somehow artificial, or that it is simply contrived to make Goku act or respond in a certain way.

The problem with this is, the power that Moro has that you say excites Goku is built on the backs of what has to be billions of innocent (and not so innocent) lives at this point. Goku knows this. Goku should not respect this power in any way, not even if it can fuel someone into a potential rivalry. Goku's shown disgust for wanton killing before on a much smaller scale so why would he respect the power of someone who is fueled by planetary death?

I feel like this is overstating your case. Vegeta's power was likewise built on simply destroying planetloads of people, and Goku knew that full well when he thought that killing him would be a 'waste', too.

Goku being excited by the prospect of a real challenge, and taking action to aid and abet that challenge even when he knows that the person embodying it is a total scumbag, is well established by this point. I'm not sure why so many people are taking exception to it, or trying to pry those things apart in order to suggest that he shouldn't characteristically think that way.