"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Kinokima]

The potential is completely tied to the fact that he can eat a lot of stolen energy and because he can eat that energy he gains a lot of power.

But it's not simply that he can eat a lot; it's that he can use that insane amount of power without any trouble that is the important thing here. Yakon can eat a lot, but it doesn't actually mean anything.

Similarly, characters like Goku and Kale and Saganbo (yes, and eventually Moro, or more properly the OG73-I bit of him, I suppose) can somehow find their way to levels of power that exist well beyond their own limits, but just can't use it right, and end up only damaging themselves. Super in particular has been driving home this particular point since at least chapter 37 (and most particularly since chapter 39, when Jiren and Roshi make it as plain as day for us).

The distinction between just having power and actually wielding it is a real and relevant one to Dragon Ball Super in general, and Moro does both, at a higher level than any other antagonist to date, which naturally piques Goku's interest (irrespective of the negative judgement he also makes). I can't agree that this idea, when expressed as a plot beat, is somehow artificial, or that it is simply contrived to make Goku act or respond in a certain way.

I realize we are debating back and forth on semantics

I get what you are saying but I still don’t see how this makes Moro the strongest opponent Goku ever faced or the one with the most potential

Even if Goku had just said you obviously have the capacity to grow stronger with your own power I wouldn’t have an issue.

It’s just the conceit that he is the strongest I disagree with. Even the argument that he doesn’t train and can wield that much power doesn’t work for me because he literally has magic. He’s literally built to consume planets & souls. This is what gives him his power and makes him different than a character like Yakon. There is a reason he got where he was without training and I don’t see what is so impressive about it.

Compared to say a character like Broly who also didn’t get the right type of training but literally grew exponentially in a short time frame.

[Ziegander]

Even the argument that he doesn’t train and can wield that much power doesn’t work for me because he literally has magic. [...] There is a reason he got where he was without training and I don’t see what is so impressive about it.

This.

Moro is an ancient sorcerer or Wizard or something. The story doesn't really make it clear, aside from, "Moro is powerful because he has magic." Moro makes his physical form powerful through his magic of absorbing life force. That's really all the story tells us about Moro. And I only say this because, ostensibly the story does seem to make it clear that Moro is not powerful because he is a skilled martial artist. Given that information and the kind of story Dragon Ball is, and Dragon Ball Super continues to be, I would argue there's either no evidence or not enough evidence to conclude that Moro's battle power would improve with martial arts training. I would argue that there's little to no reason for even someone like Goku to believe that with any conviction.

To make a, perhaps poor, analogy. Goku is a Fighting-type pokemon, while Moro is a, well, for the sake of the analogy, Moro is a Fairy-type pokemon. Goku gets stronger by training his body and spirit. Moro gets stronger, in-story by eating souls, but presumably, maybe he could also get stronger by training his magic. If that's possible. Again, the story does a very bad job of communicating exactly how Moro got his power or how it works, so we're left to conjecture, but, if we accept that Moro is a Wizard, in the D&D sense of the term, it would be plausible for Moro to become more powerful by practicing and honing the mechanism through which he devours souls and absorbs energy.

But there's just very little support in the text for the notion that Moro would gain much if any benefit from martial arts training. It's an entirely separate track of power for Moro and it starts at a much lower baseline and with a much lower ceiling than his "magic," i.e.: his life force absorption "technique." So if Moro is not powerful because of his martial arts skill, and we can surmise that he's never really trained in martial arts, I would tend to agree that it seems pretty out of nowhere for Goku to be impressed with Moro's potential if Moro were to train.

[Cipher]

...Is it so unthinkable that Goku would be intrigued by Moro's power? Even if he got where he is at this point due to his magic and life-absorption abilities, ultimately he's shown the physical ability to utilize such power and keep up with Goku in battle.

Goku is impressed with Freeza even before the latter has trained; he's impressed with Boo's tenacity and fighting technique even when the latter has relied on his own magical absorptions and recovery to last to that point.

Goku is certainly admiring of growth, but it feels like a complete projection to state that it's the only thing that draws him to villains as rivals. By and large it seems to never be something that's even been on his mind.

[The Undying]

"He's a wizard! He eats souls! He's ancient!"

Again, none of these things are proffered by the plot as an explanation for Moro's power ceiling. Most antagonists are born with it. Potential is potential, and there's no reason to think Goku wouldn't be impressed by Moro's when he was already impressed by characters that have done less to obtain strength.

"Semantics" aside, and Moro's method of obtaining power aside, it's quite literally the case that he's the strongest person Goku has fought thus far.

[JewyB]

Now lets be fair it is out of character for Goku, we all know he's the type to consider semantics and historical context and always think everything through, he doesn't just judge peoples worth based on their current, outward strength, never at all.

[Ziegander]

...Is it so unthinkable that Goku would be intrigued by Moro's power?

Unthinkable? Of course not. Intrigued? Sure.

But impressed by his potential, impressed so much that he finds it a waste to kill such an evil being, intrigued so much so as to lament that if only Moro weren't an evil wizard and trained as a martial artist (so, y'know, if Moro was a completely and utterly different thing than he is altogether) what a great fight they could have?

You really don't see how that's just maybe slightly (or very much more than slightly) unreasonable? Even for Goku?

Goku is impressed with Freeza even before the latter has trained; he's impressed with Boo's tenacity and fighting technique even when the latter has relied on his own magical absorptions and recovery to last to that point.

Frieza's power was 100% his own, and Frieza is said to be a martial arts prodigy, specifically. Goku is specifically impressed by Buu's fighting spirit and fighting technique. In fact, further, Goku is not impressed with Buu's absorptions and actually acknowledges that Buu's ability to absorb the powers of others makes his power unfair, unearned, and inherently so dangerous to the universe that he must be destroyed.

There were reasons for Goku to be impressed by previous villains. If Goku wanted to be impressed by the way Moro could handle Ultra Instinct, he could have just said that. If Goku were impressed by Moro's martial arts, he could and has said that to and about past villains. But for Goku to simply be impressed with Moro's capacity for storing and wielding an exceptionally vast amount of powers that he kills people and whole planets to obtain? That's... I mean, maybe you really do disagree, but it seems, at the very least, to be something Goku has never been shown to be impressed with before. It kind of works if you squint, but under any analysis, to me, it falls apart.

"He's a wizard! He eats souls! He's ancient!"

Now lets be fair it is out of character for Goku, we all know he's the type to consider semantics and historical context and always think everything through, he doesn't just judge peoples worth based on their current, outward strength, never at all.

Wow.

[Cipher]

There were reasons for Goku to be impressed by previous villains. If Goku wanted to be impressed by the way Moro could handle Ultra Instinct, he could have just said that. If Goku were impressed by Moro's martial arts, he could and has said that to and about past villains. But for Goku to simply be impressed with Moro's capacity for storing and wielding an exceptionally vast amount of powers that he kills people and whole planets to obtain? That's... I mean, maybe you really do disagree, but it seems, at the very least, to be something Goku has never been shown to be impressed with before. It kind of works if you squint, but under any analysis, to me, it falls apart.

It would register as being a bit odd to me were Goku complementing his strength outright. But the fact that it's accompanied specifically by speculation that Moro might reach or surpass his current abilities through traditional training places the scene in a wholly believable light to me. It demonstrates an awareness of Goku's boundaries on the part of Toyotaro, but moreover seems entirely reasonable in-universe, with Goku being thrilled by challenging fights in whatever form they come, and looking at Moro's ability to have kept up with him, even if the raw power he was utilizing was ill-gained. Certainly feels like it's within Goku's character to consider it a waste if there's even a chance Moro could maintain his current level of challenge without his planet-devouring. (But it does come with that caveat that his interest is in seeing what Moro could do sans said devouring.)

I don't think the scene warrants thinking this far into the details--as it works without doing so--but Moro is also taking punches from Super Saiyan Gods when he's still old and decrepit. This is a character who's no slouch in terms of his own basic strength, and afterward has continuously managed to give Goku a run for his money in 1:1 fights.

[Thani]

I don't think the scene warrants thinking this far into the details--as it works without doing so--but Moro is also taking punches from Super Saiyan Gods when he's still old and decrepit. This is a character who's no slouch in terms of his own basic strength, and afterward has continuously managed to give Goku a run for his money in 1:1 fights.

To be fair, Moro himself never actually tried to fight Vegeta directly even when he was a SSj (2, I think?). He always went straight for his special abilities (telekinesis and energy manipulation).

But yeah, he did take those attacks without getting immediately KO'd, and he was dodging Vegeta's attacks rather well before he went God, so there's that.

[Magnificent Ponta]

I realize we are debating back and forth on semantics

I get what you are saying but I still don’t see how this makes Moro the strongest opponent Goku ever faced or the one with the most potential

Even if Goku had just said you obviously have the capacity to grow stronger with your own power I wouldn’t have an issue.

It’s just the conceit that he is the strongest I disagree with. Even the argument that he doesn’t train and can wield that much power doesn’t work for me because he literally has magic. He’s literally built to consume planets & souls. This is what gives him his power and makes him different than a character like Yakon. There is a reason he got where he was without training and I don’t see what is so impressive about it.

Compared to say a character like Broly who also didn’t get the right type of training but literally grew exponentially in a short time frame.

I think our differences are really more material than semantic in character.

You seem to be saying that Goku's appraisal of the challenge that Moro poses ought to be overridden or invalidated by the facts of how Moro came by the power that has turned him into this challenge. That's logical enough from the perspective of someone else. However, I am saying that it is characteristic of Goku to be thrilled by a challenge like the one Moro represents, irrespective of his methods. Moro embodies the challenge simply by wielding that level of power; considered on that level, it doesn't really matter how he came by it. Goku wants to continue to test himself against it.

I don't disagree that there's a material difference between Moro and Broly in themselves, but Goku's response is the same at a basic level, because they both give him something that he craves - he wants the challenges in his life to prosper, though he wants them to go about it the 'right way', not just for themselves, or for the Universe, but principally for the calibre of challenge they'll end up being for him as a result. The fact that Moro is adamant that he won't do this is ultimately what makes Goku decide to kill him after all.

Unthinkable? Of course not. Intrigued? Sure.

But impressed by his potential, impressed so much that he finds it a waste to kill such an evil being, intrigued so much so as to lament that if only Moro weren't an evil wizard and trained as a martial artist (so, y'know, if Moro was a completely and utterly different thing than he is altogether) what a great fight they could have?

You really don't see how that's just maybe slightly (or very much more than slightly) unreasonable? Even for Goku?

Replace a couple of details here and there, and you'd have an argument for why he shouldn't have taken that same attitude with Vegeta, from the perspective of a reasonable person.

[JewyB]

Now lets be fair it is out of character for Goku, we all know he's the type to consider semantics and historical context and always think everything through, he doesn't just judge peoples worth based on their current, outward strength, never at all.

Wow.

So you roll your eyes at someone arguing the same point as you? Interesting.

[Kinokima]

I don't disagree that there's a material difference between Moro and Broly in themselves, but Goku's response is the same at a basic level, because they both give him something that he craves - he wants the challenges in his life to prosper, though he wants them to go about it the 'right way', not just for themselves, or for the Universe, but principally for the calibre of challenge they'll end up being for him as a result. The fact that Moro is adamant that he won't do this is ultimately what makes Goku decide to kill him after all.

Okay but here is the thing Goku recently came across challenges like Jiren, like Broly...both who have potential to grown even stronger who are still alive who fought with their own power and who aren’t evil.

What specifically about Moro makes him such an interesting challenge to Goku that he is dubbed the strongest character he ever fought?

Replace a couple of details here and there, and you'd have an argument for why he shouldn't have taken that same attitude with Vegeta, from the perspective of a reasonable person.

The only similarity I see is Vegeta was also evil. He also fought with his own power and was a proud warrior and at the time was literally the most amazing challenge that Goku came across & there was nothing comparable for Goku then. And Goku couldn’t even beat him on his own at the time he asked to spare him.

So I’d argue it’s not really all that comparable to this situation with Moro at all.

[Mister_Popo]

but moreover seems entirely reasonable in-universe, with Goku being thrilled by challenging fights in whatever form they come, and looking at Moro's ability to have kept up with him, even if the raw power he was utilizing was ill-gained. Certainly feels like it's within Goku's character to consider it a waste if there's even a chance Moro could maintain his current level of challenge without his planet-devouring.

It even goes beyond that, in a sense it's a trait of DB in general.
Pride, allowing the opponent to grow and testing skill against that stronger opponent is not something that only occurs to Goku.
It's something that has occured with a lot of characters in DB.

When a martial artist with a large sense of pride is overclassing everyone else , he becomes indulgent: he starts giving chances to the adversary in order for him to become stronger. Because he wants a descent challenge 'again'.

- Jiren made the same mistake with Goku during TOP (notably in the anime).
- Vegeta did the same with giving a chance to Cell in order to become perfect.
- Beerus didn't loose against SSG Goku but he gave him a chance to acquire God-ki, which was the first significant step in Gokus evolution so he may rival Beerus one day.
- SSJ Vegetto was maximum strength during end of Buu arc, but Goku and Vegeta didn't use it against Kid Buu, because it went against their pride. They didnt allow Buu to become stronger, but they deliberately wanted to fight him in non-fused state, even knowing it was a huge risk. It's the same underlying psychology, but with a different manifestation.

There are multiple examples of this.
All rationality seems to end when someone is (finally) stronger than everyone else and seeks for a new challenge.
It's a very recurring theme in DB. It's not something that now suddenly turns up out of nowhere.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Okay but here is the thing Goku recently came across challenges like Jiren, like Broly...both who have potential to grown even stronger who are still alive and who aren’t evil.

Sure, and that's all to the good for Goku. The more challenges to drive him to new heights, the better. It's not like Goku only cares about one challenge at a time, or anything. As long as he gets pushed, that's what counts.

What specifically about Moro makes him such an interesting challenge to Goku that he is dubbed the strongest character he ever fought?

I would say that it is the most obvious sense of the word 'strongest', and that Goku perceives that he could become stronger still. In terms of Goku's characteristic response, what more does he need to be excited, in that respect?

Speaking from a reader perspective, Moro is an interesting antithesis to Jiren, the last antagonist to appear in the manga - Jiren is a virtuous hero who has grown outrageously powerful from just plain old training till he became that strong. Moro is a villainous scumbag who is stronger still, and scorns training entirely. It's interesting to see that the paths to power are various, and that Goku has plausible challengers of all kinds.

So I’d argue it’s not really all that comparable to this situation with Moro at all.

Taking the statement amended in the way that I was envisaging:

"Unthinkable? Of course not. Intrigued? Sure.

But impressed by his potential, impressed so much that he finds it a waste to kill such an evil being, intrigued so much so as to lament that if only Vegeta weren't an evil space pirate and trained as a(n honourable) martial artist (so, y'know, if Vegeta was a completely and utterly different thing than he is altogether) what a great fight they could have?

You really don't see how that's just maybe slightly (or very much more than slightly) unreasonable? Even for Goku?"

You see how similar those statements are? As a proposition, you can oppose any action Goku has made of this general character with a statement like this, because it all comes from the same basic impulse. Which makes applying it to Moro...not particularly unique.

[Zelvin]

I do want to say that Goku telling Moro that if he "trained", then he'd be really strong...is insulting. Goku is blatantly telling Moro that if he only trained the way Goku does could be actually be strong. It's insulting because studying Magic, becoming a Sorcerer, does require training. Just a different form of it. It's the kind of arrogance that Goku shows when he's winning. He did much the same in the Broly movie.

As for borrowing/stealing power, let us not forget it is always Goku's idea to use Fusion when things aren't going his way. And I won't let people forget how Goku accepted and used the Super Holy Water back in Dragon Ball to give him the power he needed to face King Piccolo. Goku's not above doing this. He just makes excuses for when he does. Moro doesn't need one because he's the Villain. It's what he does. Goku never said the same thing towards Androids #19&20 when they could absorb energy. Never said it towards Cell, who absorbed millions of people to make himself stronger, plus #17&18.

So why does Goku reprimand Moro when he does it? Because Goku was winning. That's why. And when he can't win, he resorts to borrowing power and does so with a smile. You could even argue that Goku is a hypocrite. Which is not a good look for him. And just one of many reasons why this current version of him has so many fans nettled.

[Magnificent Ponta]

It's insulting because studying Magic, becoming a Sorcerer, does require training. Just a different form of it.

Can I ask how you know this detail in particular, when it comes to Moro?

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

Maybe Moro trained for his magic...or he stole it. We can't tell because Moro never states this and his backstory doesn't give it. Maybe he learned it, maybe he stole it(given how Moro is I'd say he stole it but until confirmed otherwise it's up in the air).

[LoganForkHands73]

I do want to say that Goku telling Moro that if he "trained", then he'd be really strong...is insulting. Goku is blatantly telling Moro that if he only trained the way Goku does could be actually be strong. It's insulting because studying Magic, becoming a Sorcerer, does require training. Just a different form of it. It's the kind of arrogance that Goku shows when he's winning. He did much the same in the Broly movie.

Yeah but Moro outright admits that he's never trained at all in his entire life. All his magical abilities, as far as we can tell, are entirely natural to him. Goku was intending to roast/pity him though. And he can be arrogant indeed.

I always thought Goku was trying to be complimentary to Broly in his own way. Anyone could tell from the way he threw hands that he hadn't honed his fighting abilities for one-on-one combat which Paragus confirmed, so saying that he had the potential to surpass Beerus is Goku's highest praise.

As for borrowing/stealing power, let us not forget it is always Goku's idea to use Fusion when things aren't going his way. And I won't let people forget how Goku accepted and used the Super Holy Water back in Dragon Ball to give him the power he needed to face King Piccolo. Goku's not above doing this. He just makes excuses for when he does. Moro doesn't need one because he's the Villain. It's what he does. Goku never said the same thing towards Androids #19&20 when they could absorb energy. Never said it towards Cell, who absorbed millions of people to make himself stronger, plus #17&18.

So why does Goku reprimand Moro when he does it? Because Goku was winning. That's why. And when he can't win, he resorts to borrowing power and does so with a smile. You could even argue that Goku is a hypocrite. Which is not a good look for him. And just one of many reasons why this current version of him has so many fans nettled.

I don't see how the Superduper Holy Water is quite comparable to this? I mean, disregarding the widely held opinion that it was a BS power up in the first place, Goku reluctantly drank it out of desperation against the threat of Piccolo and at great cost to his health. He basically drank a cup of rat poison. Even if it was a masochistic test of endurance, it was merely a tool to get stronger no different in practice to using a load of training weights, and in the anime presented as its own hurdle to overcome (though of course, in the manga Karin just gives it to him with no struggle), hardly the same as absorbing countless innocent lives just to get stronger for the sake of it.

[The Undying]

Wow.

If you're going to quote me, I'd prefer you quote the point I was making rather than a general sentiment I was responding to (not necessarily yours, otherwise I would have quoted you) and reply substantively to that.

It's no biggie, though. I'll do it.

Here's the thing: Moro's contrast with Jiren, the manga's previous antagonist, is something I'd pointed out back when this chapter was released. That's a fighter he thoroughly respected; Jiren worked his ass off to obtain a level of power that (at the time) seemed out of reach, but now he's fighting someone with an even higher limit than Jiren that amassed strength by stealing it. Your claim that he's "impressed with Moro's capacity for storing and wielding an exceptionally vast amount of powers that he kills people and whole planets to obtain" is at odds with the fact that, instead of being impressed, he's specifically disappointed by it.

As similarly demonstrated with Freeza, Goku's exactly the kind of guy to lament such high fighting capacity wasted on foes that refuse to take the craft seriously. He wants those opponents to be an honest challenge because he knows they're capable of so much more - Moro's strength is tied to his absorption, but as far as anyone's aware, the upper limitations of his power are more intrinsic - but when Moro still refused, he had zero qualms about killing him.

I'd argue not only is this entirely in line with his established character, it's actually one of the more nuanced takes on Goku. He fights primarily for thrills and self-interest, and as a result, doesn't at all mind changing his fixation to the current strongest guy. He's also not above admonishing them if he knows they can do better.

That's "Son Goku, Earthling" for you.

[Kinokima]

Goku never lamented that Freeza didn’t take the craft of fighting seriously.

He wants to fight him at his full power for the challenge but also to to destroy Freeza’s pride when he is at his best and get back at him for killing Kuririn

Literally nothing about Goku lamenting if only Freeza was good or trained his power. Later on Goku literally says he was too soft on Freeza and he should have finished him off.

The only case where Goku thought if only they were good was Kid Buu. He still finishes Kid Buu off but then wishes for the reincarnation.

[Miracles]

I think one of my biggest disconnects about Goku being excited about Moro’s strength is Moro is actually NOT a strong opponent. Goku himself brings it up in this chapter when he lectures Moro for never training

False. Goku actually states Moro is strong because if he trained he might be stronger than his current version.

I understand Goku’s character being excited by an evil opponent who is actually a strong warrior but that is not Moro. Moro has never fought with his own strength and has only fought with the strength of others. What is there to get excited about?

That, despite never training, Moro potentially could be stronger than all the stolen energy he is holding now. If he trained.

Even Goku saying Moro is the strongest opponent he ever fought is objectively false. Moro would be nothing without all the power he stole. I guess it depends on how you look at it but I don’t see why Goku would be impressed by Moro’s power in the way he was Freeza or Vegeta for example. The argument seems to be that if Moro trained he would be much stronger, maybe so but you could say that about any Opponent.

It's an objective fact that Moro is the strongest. Goku outright says so. Goku even states, that if Moro himself trained, without the stolen energy, he "might" be stronger than his current power level that crowned him the strongest. Which he stole energy to obtain. Goku is clearly saying, Moro on his own strength, when trained, might potentially be greater than when he stole energy.