Angel law and Whis' actions

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Angel law and Whis' actions

Post by Mad Swami » Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:57 pm

Why doesn't Whis rewinding time to save the Earth count as him interfering with mortal business? Is it ever explained? I am just curious how he isn't Merus'd?

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Re: Angle law

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:59 am

Because he's not directly fighting Freeza?
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Re: Angle law

Post by Galan007 » Sat Oct 31, 2020 8:15 am

And also because Beerus gave Whis the okay to do it.

Same thing with Whis resurrecting Freeza at the end of the ToP: that was the epitome of "interfering in mortal affairs", but evidently it was permissible because Beerus gave him the go-ahead.

Seems like Angels can bypass the "code/law", so long as they are doing so at the behest of their Destroyer.

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Re: Angle law

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Oct 31, 2020 8:46 am

I agree with the above poster, I would say it's because Beerus approved of his actions:

- Beerus approves of rewinding time to save the Earth because he likes the food they cook on that world;
- Beerus approves of rewinding time to stop Zamasu because he's a cosmic threat;
- Beerus approves of resurrecting Frieza because he wants to reward him.

Whis always acts in Beerus' best interests, he never acts of his own volition. Had Merus been Beerus' Angel, and had Beerus told him to kill Moro, I don't think he would have been erased.

The real question here is why Beerus doesn't just tell Whis to finish off Moro. He wouldn't be erased. It's the duty of the Angel to do as their Destroyer God commands. For example, when Vados destroys a planet of mortals, she is not erased. Why? Because Champa told her to destroy it. Same thing here. If Beerus told Whis to kill Moro, he wouldn't be erased.
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Re: Angle law

Post by Lord Frieza » Sat Oct 31, 2020 8:51 am

It is an interesting relationship the Gods of Destruction and the Angels have.

On the one hand the Angels are the teachers and fail safes of the God of Destruction, to teach them and keep them from getting out of line. However they are also servants to them, tending to their needs and doing as their told by the GoD, as long as it doesn’t piss off Zeno.

Angels also shut down if their GoD is killed and will be erased if they ever act on their own desires. GoD likewise don’t have many of the powers the Kaioshin have, like seeing events far off or being able to teleport anywhere they wish and must rely on their Angels for such things.

Its very interacting, two beings of almost limitless power, bound together by strict laws that prevent them from doing as they please.

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Re: Angle law

Post by Galan007 » Sat Oct 31, 2020 9:56 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 8:46 am
The real question here is why Beerus doesn't just tell Whis to finish off Moro. He wouldn't be erased. It's the duty of the Angel to do as their Destroyer God commands. For example, when Vados destroys a planet of mortals, she is not erased. Why? Because Champa told her to destroy it. Same thing here. If Beerus told Whis to kill Moro, he wouldn't be erased.
I agree that Beerus could indeed order Whis to kill Moro, and he would be able to do so without any recourse. It seems that a Destroyer's authority effectively supersedes the Angel code.

That being said, we were given a few half-baked "reasons" for Beerus(and/or Whis) not directly intervening in this arc.

The first:
https://i.imgur.com/wISMT5l.jpg
*Beerus is initially fine with letting Moro wreak havoc across the universe, because he's basically doing his job for him.

The second:
https://i.imgur.com/4PM31dm.jpg
*Beerus is tired of doing "favors" for the mortals.

The third:
https://i.imgur.com/Dm40cbt.jpg
*Beerus is content with letting Goku finish Moro off.

Now obviously all the above scenes do is showcase Beerus's flagrant laziness and stupidity. He and his entire universe were very nearly erased just two arcs ago because he is a subpar deity who doesn't take his job seriously -- Moro is the exact type of threat he should be personally handling right out of the gate... But he has obviously learned nothing, so here we are.

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Re: Angel law and Whis' actions

Post by Cipher » Sat Oct 31, 2020 3:06 pm

If you really want to justify Beerus not having Whis finish off Moro, just imagine that each and every non-neutral/training-based action would need to be ordered/approved by the God of Destruction.

Rewinding time or destroying a planet as Vados does are single actions. "Fight until you kill the opponent" is not. Maybe Beerus could command every punch and kick individually, but the moment Whis started fighting offensively of his own accord, it would violate the code.

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Re: Angel law and Whis' actions

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat Oct 31, 2020 5:03 pm

Cipher wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 3:06 pm
If you really want to justify Beerus not having Whis finish off Moro, just imagine that each and every non-neutral/training-based action would need to be ordered/approved by the God of Destruction.

Rewinding time or destroying a planet as Vados does are single actions. "Fight until you kill the opponent" is not. Maybe Beerus could command every punch and kick individually, but the moment Whis started fighting offensively of his own accord, it would violate the code.
How about just 'shoot a big and powerful enough blast to kill him in one hit'?
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Re: Angel law and Whis' actions

Post by ChronoTwigger » Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:54 pm

That make an angel assigned to an Hakaishin technically more powerfull than one that doesn't, like the Daishinkan.
Mumble...

To me is something more subtle, like "acting for his own interest" instead. So, for example, rewinding time wasn't something Whis did on his own interest but for a greater impersonal goal (Whis was actually neutral) - so also helping his assigned Hakaishin is a legit thing. Merus instead had a personal grudge.
The Hakaishin not an element.

This tap more closely on the catholic ideas of angels lacking free will (and fall when they show some).
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Re: Angel law and Whis' actions

Post by precita » Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:38 pm

It's obvious Beerus/Whis friendship with Goku has rubbed off on them. Beerus said he wouldn't interfere with Freeza fighting Goku. Had this happened any later time in the series he might have stopped Freeza from attacking the Earth.

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Re: Angel law and Whis' actions

Post by Lionel » Sat Oct 31, 2020 11:47 pm

It seems obvious that while Whis may be fundamentally sworn to being non-aligned in mortal affairs he obviously has a favourite and could be described as biased. Beerus is still his charge and is allowed to act when he directs it though he would likely prefer to not have the interesting mortals who may be able to offer said charge a challenge while providing delicious food items to him die.

If anything, I find it it peculiar that Whis would go out of his way to protect Krillin and Jaco in the recent chapter. It isn't either of them that holds his attention, at best they're extensions of Goku whom he's interested in.

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Re: Angel law and Whis' actions

Post by DragonBallFoodie » Sun Nov 01, 2020 3:39 am

ChronoTwigger wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:54 pm
This tap more closely on the catholic ideas of angels lacking free will (and fall when they show some).
I guess that explains why most angels have their hands tied, and couldn't do anything to stop Zamasu.

And of course, for me it throws some light on Zamasu: he feels that as an angel his self-righteousness is all he needs and desires. (I never really thought on it this way).
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Re: Angel law and Whis' actions

Post by Cipher » Sun Nov 01, 2020 6:17 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 5:03 pm
How about just 'shoot a big and powerful enough blast to kill him in one hit'?
Who’s to say they can do that with opponents at God of Destruction levels? Obviously the angels are much stronger, but there’s room in between “much stronger” and “can blast away all at once, guaranteed.”

Merus used his last moments to remove Moro’s copy ability and help Goku complete Ultra Instinct, and you’d think at that point if he were certain he could take out Moro in one attack, he would have done that instead.

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Re: Angel law and Whis' actions

Post by Galan007 » Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:46 am

Cipher wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 6:17 am
Who’s to say they can do that with opponents at God of Destruction levels? Obviously the angels are much stronger, but there’s room in between “much stronger” and “can blast away all at once, guaranteed.”

Merus used his last moments to remove Moro’s copy ability and help Goku complete Ultra Instinct, and you’d think at that point if he were certain he could take out Moro in one attack, he would have done that instead.
The difference is that Merus didn't go into the fight with the intent to kill Moro, but rather, with the intent to trigger/activate Goku's MUI, by using his own imminent death/erasure as the catalyst to do so. That is [logically] why he never tried to launch an attack that would significantly damage or kill Moro, and just targeted his copying-tech exclusively... Or perhaps if Merus had gone all-out at the onset of the battle, and tried to destroy Moro, he would have been erased before any of his attacks could have ever hit their mark, given that he was fighting completely of his own volition(which is obviously a huge no-no in the Angel world.)

Conversely, Whis would be acting against Moro under the direct orders/approval of Beerus in this theoretical scenario, and as such, would likely not be subject to erasure. I think the dialogue could be relatively open-ended, tbh -- something like:
Beerus: "Hey, Whis... Go kill that Moro guy immediately. I'm starving!"
Whis: "As you wish, my Lord."

So long as all of his subsequent actions were taken with the intent to destroy Moro as per the request of Beerus, I believe that Whis could attack 'at-will'(ie. complete independence), without having to worry about erasure.

I don't see Beerus having to sit on the sidelines and call out every single action Whis made, like some kind of cosmic marionette(as you implied above), but that's just me. /shrug

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Re: Angel law and Whis' actions

Post by Cipher » Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:56 am

Galan007 wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:46 am
The difference is that Merus didn't go into the fight with the intent to kill Moro, but rather, with the intent to trigger/activate Goku's MUI, by using his own imminent death/erasure as the catalyst to do so. That is [logically] why he never tried to launch an attack that would significantly damage or kill Moro, and just targeted his copying-tech exclusively... Or perhaps if Merus had gone all-out at the onset of the battle, and tried to destroy Moro, he would have been erased before any of his attacks could have ever hit their mark, given that he was fighting completely of his own volition(which is obviously a huge no-no in the Angel world.)

Conversely, Whis would be acting against Moro under the direct orders/approval of Beerus in this theoretical scenario, and as such, would likely not be subject to erasure. I think the dialogue could be relatively open-ended, tbh -- something like:
Beerus: "Hey, Whis... Go kill that Moro guy immediately. I'm starving!"
Whis: "As you wish, my Lord."

So long as all of his subsequent actions were taken with the intent to destroy Moro as per the request of Beerus, I believe that Whis could attack 'at-will'(ie. complete independence), without having to worry about erasure.

I don't see Beerus having to sit on the sidelines and call out every single action Whis made, like some kind of cosmic marionette(as you implied above), but that's just me. /shrug
Merus' goal is protecting the universe, not training Goku. That's what he's dying for. Wouldn't it make more sense to spend his final moment killing Moro himself if he were certain he could do it? On the other hand, spending his final moments removing Moro's copy ability might be the most useful route if he could guarantee he could do at least that and leave the rest up to Goku. (Not that he couldn't kill Moro, but perhaps he wasn't 100 percent sure he could kill him with his few moments between violating the angels' neutrality rule and vanishing.)

I'm not saying either that or the way Whis would have to interact with commands from Beerus are firm; I'm just pointing out that if one is determined to look at Beerus not ordering Whis into the fray as a plothole, it's just as easy to come up with reasons for it not to be, given all we've ever been shown of angels so far.

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Re: Angel law and Whis' actions

Post by Galan007 » Sun Nov 01, 2020 1:55 pm

Cipher wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:56 am
Merus' goal is protecting the universe, not training Goku. That's what he's dying for. Wouldn't it make more sense to spend his final moment killing Moro himself if he were certain he could do it? On the other hand, spending his final moments removing Moro's copy ability might be the most useful route if he could guarantee he could do at least that and leave the rest up to Goku. (Not that he couldn't kill Moro, but perhaps he wasn't 100 percent sure he could kill him with his few moments between violating the angels' neutrality rule and vanishing.)
Merus made it pretty clear from the get-go that his sole motivation for engaging Moro the final time(which he knew would result in his erasure) was to complete Goku's training:
https://ibb.co/mvFV3FD
He counted on Goku's ascent to MUI being what ultimately "protected the universe."

As mentioned, there are a few reasons why Merus didn't power up at the onset and kill Moro himself -- the most likely being that he would have been immediately erased(and therfore obviously unable to attack) for engaging in a true battle of his own volition. That would explain why he opted to use incrementally more power during their fight, and didn't utilize any lethal techniques. Imo.
Cipher wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:56 am
I'm not saying either that or the way Whis would have to interact with commands from Beerus are firm; I'm just pointing out that if one is determined to look at Beerus not ordering Whis into the fray as a plothole, it's just as easy to come up with reasons for it not to be, given all we've ever been shown of angels so far.
I see your point. I, personally, disagree for reasons already mentioned, but I suppose it can't really be 'proven' either way.

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Re: Angel law and Whis' actions

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:05 pm

And why didn't Whis rewind time when Moro absorbed Merus' arm? This is why I just suspend logic when reading Dragon Ball

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