Super or GT poll

[precita]

Is Ultra Instinct actually a boost in power? I just thought it was Goku able to dodge and use his reflexes without thinking which is what Whis said it was.

[Matches Malone]

Is Ultra Instinct actually a boost in power? I just thought it was Goku able to dodge and use his reflexes without thinking which is what Whis said it was.

I don't get it as well, it seems like it changed as time went on.

[WittyUsername]

Is Ultra Instinct actually a boost in power? I just thought it was Goku able to dodge and use his reflexes without thinking which is what Whis said it was.

Apparently, the idea is that while Ultra Instinct itself is not a transformation, the only way Goku can properly access it is through his own unique transformation. It’s basically just an excuse to bring in a new form for Goku, since Dragon Ball is essentially one giant commercial at this point.

[ShaggyBlanco]

Is Ultra Instinct actually a boost in power? I just thought it was Goku able to dodge and use his reflexes without thinking which is what Whis said it was.

I believe so, just compare to how Moro impaled SSB Goku to when he tried it against UI
Whis said the users body grows studier if necessary but without a boost I don't see how Goku woulldn't take even a bit of damage

[Koitsukai]

For the U6 saiyans, following the S-cells theory, I don't think it's crazy.

I don't think there's a word in English that can describe how crazy it is. A Ssj2 Kefla is somehow able to put up a fight against UI Omen, which is leagues ahead of Blue, which is leagues ahead of God, which is leagues ahead of Ssj3, which is leagues ahead of Ssj2. How on earth is she that strong ? She should've been one shotted by SsjG.

Well, if Kale is anything like Broly, some sort of U6 counterpart (and I think we can all agree that was what they were going for), then fusing with someone else and ending up that strong is not that far-fetched.
Actually I think it was the other way around, Broly is U7's Kale, only much stronger.

[precita]

I think the problem is the Battle of Gods movie was intended to be a one-off return for the franchise and they had no idea they would be making a series afterward. Same reason why Goku seemed to be doing so well against Beerus even though he's now a million times stronger than that with Blue and everything that happened since. They had to retcon that Beerus was barely using his power back then even though when you watch the movie Beerus is clearly taking some damage.

Every problem of modern Dragonball stems from Super Saiyan God being overpowered at the start and then them having to retcon things explaining Beerus was still much stronger and other mortals can be on that level.

[Matches Malone]

I think the problem is the Battle of Gods movie was intended to be a one-off return for the franchise and they had no idea they would be making a series afterward.

This is definitely the reason, they even said this was how BOG was made. Toriyama had no idea if there'd be anything after, and Toei saif RF got green lit after they saw the results of BOG. I think it was even announced as an episode set between Z and GT, so back then it was even considered "canon" to GT.

In the movie, Goku loses the SsjG power after absorbing Beerus' attack. I think the power scaling would've been fine had they limited SsjG's usage to requiring a ritual, and have it be used only every so often. Instead they introduced 2 even stronger forms.

[ShaggyBlanco]

I think the problem is the Battle of Gods movie was intended to be a one-off return for the franchise and they had no idea they would be making a series afterward. Same reason why Goku seemed to be doing so well against Beerus even though he's now a million times stronger than that with Blue and everything that happened since. They had to retcon that Beerus was barely using his power back then even though when you watch the movie Beerus is clearly taking some damage.

Every problem of modern Dragonball stems from Super Saiyan God being overpowered at the start and then them having to retcon things explaining Beerus was still much stronger and other mortals can be on that level.

That's the reason I was actually happy when the BoG and RoF anime/manga retell were announced, I was hoping they would change some stuff like SSG's power/what it is and Freeza's training but...

[Matches Malone]

That's the reason I was actually happy when the BoG and RoF anime/manga retell were announced, I was hoping they would change some stuff like SSG's power/what it is and Freeza's training but...

What makes things worse is seeing how well the Boruto movie retelling was handled.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Broly and Kale obviously aren't 'regular Saiyans'. Caulifla, on the other hand, is supposed to be.

[DBPirate]

Super obviously doesn’t care for power scaling in general. I’m not even sure why people are still trying to make sense of that stuff. The characters are as strong as they need to be. That’s all there is to it. I know that “who is stronger” debates have always been a thing in the fandom, but Toriyama, Toyatoro and Toei have made it clear that they simply aren’t interested in adhering to that.

I agree. I think people care a bit too much about this kind of thing. If the story is to continue (though I know some people think it should have ended already), there always has to be new threats to overcome and naturally, they'll be able to give the protagonists a run for their money.

[precita]

While it's obvious the new Super Saiyan forms are to drive merch sales, I really do think the cast should have been left at Boo saga level of strength for some time. I mean everyone was already absurdly strong in the Boo arc, and we've gone from that to Super which even though we now have God forms it doesn't feel that much different in terms of fights.

But it is what it is. I like how Blue hair looks on Goku/Vegeta, so I can't say I don't like it in general. It's kinda crazy when you realize those Universe 3 robots in the TOP were holding back Blue and Golden Freeza and 17...meaning those robots are at God of Destruction level as well...lol

[Matches Malone]

I think people care a bit too much about this kind of thing.

I don't think asking to know why and how characters compare to each other is asking too much, then again, asking anything of Super seems to be too much.

[Dbzk1999]

Super, GT is just, boring to me unfortunately

[Matches Malone]

I can't believe both are equal in votes now. I thought by now Super would be ahead, but gt's holding on.

[TobyS]

I can't believe both are equal in votes now. I thought by now Super would be ahead, but gt's holding on.

Super fans are too busy being out getting paid and laid to vote in a poll.

Haha I'm 95% kidding but I think sometimes there's a bias where vocal minorities are over represented.
People don't feel the need to "defend" supers honour when it's like clearly the winner in the history books, surpassing episode count and still ongoing and not explicitly called a side story by the franchise creator.

In fact I only looked at the poll out of jobless boredom and only voted for super *because* GT was winning.

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

[precita]

Nah, the main reason is most of the people who like and followed Super aren't on the forums anymore. The series ended in March 2018 so that's nearly 2 years ago now, so with nothing much to talk about unless you're following the manga they're not online anymore or at least not on this forum. Look at how active the Super forum was when it was airing, almost all those users are gone now.

There's no doubt that overall in the fandom, not just here but everywhere online like reddit/youtube/twitter/various anime sites, etc... that Super is vastly prefered over GT as a whole.

[Matches Malone]

There's no doubt that overall in the fandom, not just here but everywhere online that Super is vastly preferred over GT as a whole.

I think you're right overall, although it would be interesting to see how it'd fair if it didn't have Toriyama's name attached to it.

[Mister_Popo]

I think there is some consensus within the fandom (at least here on Kanzenshuu) Super nor GT is on pair with the original DB- / DBZ-run in terms of quality.
I personally still prefer Super though (BOG-movie i include within Super-content). Because it did manage to somehow successfully revive the DB-continuity that was considered long dead, and gave new possibilities for DB-content with its extended universe. GT was basically a dead cat bounce after the fireworks.

[Hellspawn28]

I like Super more than GT because I didn't have much hype hopes for Super like I did with GT. GT is a direct sequel to DBZ and it a lot of going for it. I remember being hyped up for GT before it came out in the US by looking at images of it and I was like "This is going to be amazing!!". I saw GT dubbed nearly 2 years before it came out and I knew that I was let down deep down. For a long time, I refuse to admit that GT was bad and I was like "You guys are too harsh". I also hated the character designs and the art direction because it was not as colorful as DB/DBZ was. I know Toriyama design the main cast, but I don't always like everything that he makes.

Super was a flawed show, but it's still a lot of fun. It give us more on the lore of the DB universe and it try to do something different for once. Instead having Character A be stronger than Character B, they are still powerful and a threat to Goku (As seen with Golden Freeza and maybe Moro). You also don't have every major opponent being killed off. It also give the human cast to fight again after years of people feeling like that they became pointless after the Saiyan saga. Even though Toriyama may not be 100% involved in Super, you can still feel his finger prints on it. GT didn't feel like it came from Toriyama at all in my opinion.

+ Not relying on nostalgia.

GT did rehash stuff in the Black Star Dragon Ball saga by having reusing old gag moments from the Pilaf saga.