I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

[TobyS]

I don't remember if we have that information, but if I were to guess, those Universes above the pillars are the actual Universes. That means Zeno lives in the Megaverse. Time should still pass right there.

If it's just holograms/projections, then half the fun is gone. And I wouldn't know to tell where Zeno actually resides.

Well yeah he probably lives in the Megaverse, but I don't imagine the universes are all mashed together like that. That would imply if you go far enough in one you'd reach the other. WAIT. I just realized you guys were talking about the orbs, not the background. Those might be the universes

Yes, the orbs would be a projection of the actual universe. Obviously it's not THE ACTUAL UNIVERSE, since it wouldn't be so small compared to Zeno's palace, but it's still a small scale replica of what the actual universe looks like. Literally an orb enclosing the various planets, galaxies, etc.

This is not even a concept of Super, as the Grand Kai in Z held a replica of the 7th Universe on his finger. The universes were always considered to be physical, material planes in Dragon Ball:



As such it's not far-fetched that the universe would serve as a new host for Zamasu's soul. As with any physical thing, it has a core, and Zamasu infected it.

This is the same concept as a ghost possessing a building. There are countless horror stories in which a ghost has "merged" with an abandoned house and controls it. It's the same concept here, but on a much larger scale.

Mad Swami is right, the scene you cite is filler bollocks even if it meant anything anyway.
There's no precedent for ghosts possessing places and controlling them like in DB, regardless the entire universe would be too vast and 'powerful' for him to comprehend gain control of, it was dramatic but it made no sense.
Besides he's not a real ghost, he's not dead, he can't die, he's just a floating consciousness, why couldn't kid Kuririn take control of all of limbo when he was killed by tambourine?
There's no reason becoming incoporeal should give you reality warping powers on a greater magnitude then you had regular powers.

[SupremeKai25]

Mad Swami is right, the scene you cite is filler bollocks even if it meant anything anyway.
There's no precedent for ghosts possessing places and controlling them like in DB, regardless the entire universe would be too vast and 'powerful' for him to comprehend gain control of, it was dramatic but it made no sense.
Besides he's not a real ghost, he's not dead, he can't die, he's just a floating consciousness, why couldn't kid Kuririn take control of all of limbo when he was killed by tambourine?
There's no reason becoming incoporeal should give you reality warping powers on a greater magnitude then you had regular powers.

Even if that scene is filler, there's still the universe projections around Zeno's palace, which you can't disprove.

Just because there's no precedent doesn't mean it can't happen. There was also no precedent for an immortal villain. It doesn't mean ANYTHING. Let alone the fact that it was made clear that Zamasu's mere existence is beyond the very comprehension of the Gods, as he is an immortal God with limitless power and potential. So No, it makes complete sense that he'd become so "enlightened" and almighty as to merge with the cosmos itself.

I didn't say Zamasu was a ghost, I said it's the SAME CONCEPT. He was an ethereal, incorporeal being possessing a material entity.

Krillin can't merge with the cosmos because he's not immortal, it's obvious:

-> MORTAL beings go straight to the Otherwold after their deaths;
-> IMMORTAL beings with IMMORTAL souls don't go to the Otherworld after their physical deaths, as their souls remain in the world of the living.

Let alone the fact that Zamasu didn't even need to become incorporeal to have reality warping powers of enormous magnitude. Goku Black became so strong that his power eclipsed his own divine comprehension, and he was able to tear open a rift into the very fabric of reality. Fused Zamasu is stated infinitely more powerful than Black, and was also immortal.

[TobyS]

Mad Swami is right, the scene you cite is filler bollocks even if it meant anything anyway.
There's no precedent for ghosts possessing places and controlling them like in DB, regardless the entire universe would be too vast and 'powerful' for him to comprehend gain control of, it was dramatic but it made no sense.
Besides he's not a real ghost, he's not dead, he can't die, he's just a floating consciousness, why couldn't kid Kuririn take control of all of limbo when he was killed by tambourine?
There's no reason becoming incoporeal should give you reality warping powers on a greater magnitude then you had regular powers.

Even if that scene is filler, there's still the universe projections around Zeno's palace, which you can't disprove.

Just because there's no precedent doesn't mean it can't happen. There was also no precedent for an immortal villain. It doesn't mean ANYTHING. Let alone the fact that it was made clear that Zamasu's mere existence is beyond the very comprehension of the Gods, as he is an immortal God with limitless power and potential. So No, it makes complete sense that he'd become so "enlightened" and almighty as to merge with the cosmos itself.

I didn't say Zamasu was a ghost, I said it's the SAME CONCEPT. He was an ethereal, incorporeal being possessing a material entity.

Krillin can't merge with the cosmos because he's not immortal, it's obvious:

-> MORTAL beings go straight to the Otherwold after their deaths;
-> IMMORTAL beings with IMMORTAL souls don't go to the Otherworld after their physical deaths, as their souls remain in the world of the living.

Let alone the fact that Zamasu didn't even need to become incorporeal to have reality warping powers of enormous magnitude. Goku Black became so strong that his power eclipsed his own divine comprehension, and he was able to tear open a rift into the very fabric of reality. Fused Zamasu is stated infinitely more powerful than Black, and was also immortal.

That rift is also filler. I didn't say Kuririn merged with the cosmos I said he was in limbo where people go when killed by a demon. Every soul in limbo or heaven can't control the place, there's no reason Zamasu should be able to.

If you wanna enjoy it that's fine but stop pretending it makes sense, or at least stop trying to convince me lol.

[SupremeKai25]

That rift is also filler. I didn't say Kuririn merged with the cosmos I said he was in limbo where people go when killed by a demon. Every soul in limbo or heaven can't control the place, there's no reason Zamasu should be able to.

If you wanna enjoy it that's fine but stop pretending it makes sense, or at least stop trying to convince me lol.

How is it filler? You do know the manga continuity is not the main continuity of Super, right? Goku Black tearing a rift into the fabric of reality is 100% canon.

No soul in limbo or heaven is immortal. That's why they are in limbo or heaven. Also, Krillin is a fodder earthling, he's not a Supreme God with multiple statements and actual feats that indicate he's far beyond the comprehend of even the Supreme Kais and has infinite potential. Very clearly Krillin and Fused Zamasu are not comparable in any way, shape, or form...

I won't "stop" doing anything. This isn't your echo chamber where people are not allowed to disprove what you're saying. And Yes it makes complete sense, as I just explained to you. Besides, I mean, you don't need to be convinced for the story to make sense. You can believe what you want, it doesn't change the fact that the ending of the Future Trunks arc makes 100% sense.

[TobyS]

That rift is also filler. I didn't say Kuririn merged with the cosmos I said he was in limbo where people go when killed by a demon. Every soul in limbo or heaven can't control the place, there's no reason Zamasu should be able to.

If you wanna enjoy it that's fine but stop pretending it makes sense, or at least stop trying to convince me lol.

How is it filler? You do know the manga continuity is not the main continuity of Super, right? Goku Black tearing a rift into the fabric of reality is 100% canon.

No soul in limbo or heaven is immortal. That's why they are in limbo or heaven. Also, Krillin is a fodder earthling, he's not a Supreme God with multiple statements and actual feats that indicate he's far beyond the comprehend of even the Supreme Kais and has infinite potential. Very clearly Krillin and Fused Zamasu are not comparable in any way, shape, or form...

I won't "stop" doing anything. This isn't your echo chamber where people are not allowed to disprove what you're saying. And Yes it makes complete sense, as I just explained to you. Besides, I mean, you don't need to be convinced for the story to make sense. You can believe what you want, it doesn't change the fact that the ending of the Future Trunks arc makes 100% sense.

There is no canon. They are two official products.
Toriyamas outline is the closest thing we have to a canon and if it's not in both mediums it's not in the outline.
Beyond that of the anime and manga he has a LOT more involvement with the manga and has given his permission for toyo to change stuff beyond that. You may prefer the anime but it's undeniable the manga is closer to Toriyamas vision of what a continuation of the dragon world is.

Also Zamasu is not a supreme god, he's two apprentice kaioshins merged with a saiyan body. He's not even as strong as one completed super saiyan blue, a blue fusion of a god of destruction. The reality warping powers are out of nowhere. He should just be a disembodied consciousness floating around harmlessly, either that or his body should just re-appear.

[SupremeKai25]

That rift is also filler. I didn't say Kuririn merged with the cosmos I said he was in limbo where people go when killed by a demon. Every soul in limbo or heaven can't control the place, there's no reason Zamasu should be able to.

If you wanna enjoy it that's fine but stop pretending it makes sense, or at least stop trying to convince me lol.

How is it filler? You do know the manga continuity is not the main continuity of Super, right? Goku Black tearing a rift into the fabric of reality is 100% canon.

No soul in limbo or heaven is immortal. That's why they are in limbo or heaven. Also, Krillin is a fodder earthling, he's not a Supreme God with multiple statements and actual feats that indicate he's far beyond the comprehend of even the Supreme Kais and has infinite potential. Very clearly Krillin and Fused Zamasu are not comparable in any way, shape, or form...

I won't "stop" doing anything. This isn't your echo chamber where people are not allowed to disprove what you're saying. And Yes it makes complete sense, as I just explained to you. Besides, I mean, you don't need to be convinced for the story to make sense. You can believe what you want, it doesn't change the fact that the ending of the Future Trunks arc makes 100% sense.

There is no canon. They are two official products.
Toriyamas outline is the closest thing we have to a canon and if it's not in both mediums it's not in the outline.
Beyond that of the anime and manga he has a LOT more involvement with the manga and has given his permission for toyo to change stuff beyond that. You may prefer the anime but it's undeniable the manga is closer to Toriyamas vision of what a continuation of the dragon world is.

Also Zamasu is not a supreme god, he's two apprentice kaioshins merged with a saiyan body. He's not even as strong as one completed super saiyan blue, a blue fusion of a god of destruction. The reality warping powers are out of nowhere. He should just be a disembodied consciousness floating around harmlessly, either that or his body should just re-appear.

Yes, and we are talking about the ANIME, since very clearly Zamasu does not merge with the cosmos in the manga. So, since we are talking about the anime, Black tearing a rift into reality is 100% canon.

Your second paragraph is all wrong as it should already be blatant that this tangent is about the anime:

1) Fused Zamasu is literally referred to as "Absolute God" in the official title of ep. 65;
2) He is WAY STRONGER than any non-fused Super Saiyan Blue, and Black was already stated by Toei producers to be stronger than any non-fused character except Beerus and Whis;
3) Toei producers literally called him a "hax character";
4) Both Black and Future Zamasu are fully-fledged Supreme Kais, which is why Fused Zamasu, as a Supreme Kai himself, does not have a time limit;
5) The reality warping powers are not out of nowhere at all, as Black was able to tear a rift into the very fabric of reality before fusing, and Fused Zamasu is way beyond Black power-wise and potential-wise -- and this is canon;
6) There is also clear foreshadowing of Fused Zamasu merging with the cosmos, because upon his birth he literally says "My form is JUSTICE. And my form is THE WORLD" -> Later on Gowasu explains that Zamasu not only merged with the cosmos, but is trying to become his own twisted idea of justice made manifest.
7) His body does not "re-appear" because Fused Zamasu willingly gave it up. As Gowasu explains, Zamasu decided to get rid of his physical form to embrace his new ethereal form. So why would Zamasu go back to a physical host when he wanted to ascend to an even higher state of existence?

[TobyS]

How is it filler? You do know the manga continuity is not the main continuity of Super, right? Goku Black tearing a rift into the fabric of reality is 100% canon.

No soul in limbo or heaven is immortal. That's why they are in limbo or heaven. Also, Krillin is a fodder earthling, he's not a Supreme God with multiple statements and actual feats that indicate he's far beyond the comprehend of even the Supreme Kais and has infinite potential. Very clearly Krillin and Fused Zamasu are not comparable in any way, shape, or form...

I won't "stop" doing anything. This isn't your echo chamber where people are not allowed to disprove what you're saying. And Yes it makes complete sense, as I just explained to you. Besides, I mean, you don't need to be convinced for the story to make sense. You can believe what you want, it doesn't change the fact that the ending of the Future Trunks arc makes 100% sense.

There is no canon. They are two official products.
Toriyamas outline is the closest thing we have to a canon and if it's not in both mediums it's not in the outline.
Beyond that of the anime and manga he has a LOT more involvement with the manga and has given his permission for toyo to change stuff beyond that. You may prefer the anime but it's undeniable the manga is closer to Toriyamas vision of what a continuation of the dragon world is.

Also Zamasu is not a supreme god, he's two apprentice kaioshins merged with a saiyan body. He's not even as strong as one completed super saiyan blue, a blue fusion of a god of destruction. The reality warping powers are out of nowhere. He should just be a disembodied consciousness floating around harmlessly, either that or his body should just re-appear.

Yes, and we are talking about the ANIME, since very clearly Zamasu does not merge with the cosmos in the manga. So, since we are talking about the anime, Black tearing a rift into reality is 100% canon.

Your second paragraph is all wrong as it should already be blatant that this tangent is about the anime:

1) Fused Zamasu is literally referred to as "Absolute God" in the official title of ep. 65;
2) He is WAY STRONGER than any non-fused Super Saiyan Blue, and Black was already stated by Toei producers to be stronger than any non-fused character except Beerus and Whis;
3) Toei producers literally called him a "hax character";
4) Both Black and Future Zamasu are fully-fledged Supreme Kais, which is why Fused Zamasu, as a Supreme Kai himself, does not have a time limit;
5) The reality warping powers are not out of nowhere at all, as Black was able to tear a rift into the very fabric of reality before fusing, and Fused Zamasu is way beyond Black power-wise and potential-wise -- and this is canon;
6) There is also clear foreshadowing of Fused Zamasu merging with the cosmos, because upon his birth he literally says "My form is JUSTICE. And my form is THE WORLD" -> Later on Gowasu explains that Zamasu not only merged with the cosmos, but is trying to become his own twisted idea of justice made manifest.
7) His body does not "re-appear" because Fused Zamasu willingly gave it up. As Gowasu explains, Zamasu decided to get rid of his physical form to embrace his new ethereal form. So why would Zamasu go back to a physical host when he wanted to ascend to an even higher state of existence?

The thread Title is about Toyo who is the writer of the manga, I mean sure you can cite examples of the anime making no sense and doing stupid shit to explain other nonsensical stupid shit later but like ok what's your point?

You aren't convincing me that it makes sense that Zamasu can merge with the universe because other parts that also made no sense led up to it.

There's precedent for powerful characters ripping reality, like Gotenks in the RoSaT. There's nothing for characters getting reality warping powers because they are disembodied. Characters can't do it in the afterlife or limbo in fact they are demoted to being less powerful then Yemna. Yet a soul in the mortal world, where they aren't even meant to be can suddenly do that shit? Nah.

You are just giving yourself a bigger burden of proof.

You are literally taking hyperbolic statements a delusional insane character says while having a mental breakdown as like solid evidence "my form is JUSTICE" like what the fuck does that even mean?

There's no basis for us to have a reasonable conversation on this. I'm out.

[SupremeKai25]

The thread Title is about Toyo who is the writer of the manga, I mean sure you can cite examples of the anime making no sense and doing stupid shit to explain other nonsensical stupid shit later but like ok what's your point?

You aren't convincing me that it makes sense that Zamasu can merge with the universe because other parts that also made no sense led up to it.

D... Did you not realize that you are the one who decided the context should be the anime? I know the thread is about Toyotaro, I am not blind, I even told you it was a tangent. A tangent that YOU started, since I replied to you who were talking about the anime. So if you want to blame anyone for shfiting this thread to the anime, blame yourself.

I do not need to convince you, I simply disproved your claim that the ending of the Future Trunks arc makes no sense (since, you know, this is not an echo chamber, people can challenge you on your claims). You could not disprove a single one of my arguments, which are all backed by the source material.

There's nothing for characters getting reality warping powers because they are disembodied

There was also no indication of what a bodiless villain could do, as there was never an immortal villain before Zamasu. So what you are saying is not really relevant. There was no precedent for it... because the story was not going that way. Just as there was no precedent for a mortal surpassing a GoD until the ToP arc.

Also, there is a precedent for Fused Zamasu having reality warping powers via Black, as I explained to you.

Characters can't do it in the afterlife or limbo in fact they are demoted to being less powerful then Yemna.

Because they are dead. Meanwhile Zamasu had an immortal soul, and that immortality was granted by the Super Dragon Balls. Clearly the situations are not comparable.

You are literally taking hyperbolic statements a delusional insane character says while having a mental breakdown as like solid evidence "my form is JUSTICE" like what the fuck does that even mean?

Did you completely miss the part where I explained that Gowasu also mentioned that? Gowasu mentions that Zamasu merged with the world, and that he is trying to become justice, so clearly that is not the rambling of a madman if Gowasu, who is wise and mentally stable, later on confirms this.

There's no basis for us to have a reasonable conversation on this. I'm out.

I mean, Yeah, it should be obvious that you are arguing in very bad faith. You are backtracking hard and acting like talking about the anime in a "manga thread" is wrong, when you are literally the one who started this tangent about the anime.

[Thani]

So, Toyo and apparently Toriyama can't have internal consistency in their work to save their lives... What else is new?

[Matches Malone]

So, Toyo and apparently Toriyama can't have internal consistency in their work to save their lives... What else is new?

I think the biggest problem is that they're just throwing sh*t at the wall to see what sticks. Dragon Ball has been directionless since this revival started, and it's not going to change any time soon.

[Thani]

So, Toyo and apparently Toriyama can't have internal consistency in their work to save their lives... What else is new?

I think the biggest problem is that they're just throwing sh*t at the wall to see what sticks. Dragon Ball has been directionless since this revival started, and it's not going to change any time soon.

That's true. I think the first big example was with RoF, where their base state alone was supposed to be unholy strong, and then people like Cabba and Trunks were matching them. With Cabba, at first, there was the excuse of different universes, but the idea really was scrapped when Trunks (even if he got stronger by being punched around by Black) was able to match Goku's SSj2 with his own SSj2, which would make Trunks' gains way, waaaaay too big for what we knew of him.

[Matches Malone]

That's true. I think the first big example was with RoF, where their base state alone was supposed to be unholy strong, and then people like Cabba and Trunks were matching them. With Cabba, at first, there was the excuse of different universes, but the idea really was scrapped when Trunks (even if he got stronger by being punched around by Black) was able to match Goku's SSj2 with his own SSj2, which would make Trunks' gains way, waaaaay too big for what we knew of him.

When it comes to power levels they're not even trying to be logical. I think what's worse is the fans defending it, saying things like "power levels don't matter". How on earth does knowing where characters stand compared to one another not matter ? Modern DB definitely has the nicest fan base, as it more less gets away with literally everything it does.

[Thani]

That's true. I think the first big example was with RoF, where their base state alone was supposed to be unholy strong, and then people like Cabba and Trunks were matching them. With Cabba, at first, there was the excuse of different universes, but the idea really was scrapped when Trunks (even if he got stronger by being punched around by Black) was able to match Goku's SSj2 with his own SSj2, which would make Trunks' gains way, waaaaay too big for what we knew of him.

When it comes to power levels they're not even trying to be logical. I think what's worse is the fans defending it, saying things like "power levels don't matter". How on earth does knowing where characters stand compared to one another not matter ? Modern DB definitely has the nicest fan base, as it more less gets away with literally everything it does.

Agreed. At the very least, the manga fixed that problem by not having Goku "absorb" the power of SSG. Hence no super strong base state.

The anime just had to aknowledge this transition, like, idk, "Oh look, I can turn SSG again after training with Whis. Guess that power from before really was my body getting used to it so I could unlock this form on my own".

[TobyS]

That's true. I think the first big example was with RoF, where their base state alone was supposed to be unholy strong, and then people like Cabba and Trunks were matching them. With Cabba, at first, there was the excuse of different universes, but the idea really was scrapped when Trunks (even if he got stronger by being punched around by Black) was able to match Goku's SSj2 with his own SSj2, which would make Trunks' gains way, waaaaay too big for what we knew of him.

When it comes to power levels they're not even trying to be logical. I think what's worse is the fans defending it, saying things like "power levels don't matter". How on earth does knowing where characters stand compared to one another not matter ? Modern DB definitely has the nicest fan base, as it more less gets away with literally everything it does.

It doesn't "get away with it" It has tonnes of nerds relentlessly bitching about it every single month even based on incomplete previews because they are addicted to their own righteous impotent rage.

If you mean no nutcase has murdered the writer or anything sure.

If you mean it still sells, sure, but nerds always claim they "don't want to break their run" or some stupid shit when it comes to comics even though voting with your wallet is the ONLY way to effect stuff under capitalism.

[Matches Malone]

It doesn't "get away with it" It has tonnes of nerds relentlessly bitching about it every single month even based on incomplete previews because they are addicted to their own righteous impotent rage.

It's not "bitching", it's having standards, you should try it sometimes.

[TobyS]

It doesn't "get away with it" It has tonnes of nerds relentlessly bitching about it every single month even based on incomplete previews because they are addicted to their own righteous impotent rage.

It's not "bitching", it's having standards, you should try it sometimes.

I hold myself to the lofty standard of not spending all day bitching about a comic for 12 year olds, where the creators will never hear it, with the sole affect of lessening the enjoyment for other people.

Maybe try that.

[Matches Malone]

I hold myself to the lofty standard of not spending all day bitching about a comic for 12 year olds.

If you're so "mature", why bother being a fan of something for "12 year olds" in the first place ? By your "logic", anything not rated for "adults" shouldn't be criticized...

[TobyS]

I hold myself to the lofty standard of not spending all day bitching about a comic for 12 year olds.

If you're so "mature", why bother being a fan of something for "12 year olds" in the first place ? By your "logic", anything not rated for "adults" shouldn't be criticized...

Not criticised does not equal “not criticising it where the creator can't get the feedback and it's only function is to sap the joy from other people”

Seriously dude you can't straw man my argument when my post is still on the same bloody page.

Even then If someone says “I personally didn't like it”. “I didn't think it was that great” or the like is fine. To say something is GARBAGE and make hate threads like “its time to admit (implying any fan who disagrees has been lying till now) AUTHOR name is a TERRIBLE writer”shows that the critic is a baby who can't possibly do criticism in a non hysterical hyperbolic way anyway. Which is fucking boring on top of being unfair and a buzz kill.

There's varying levels of maturity. It's not a binary.

It's possible to enjoy something that's made chiefly for kids, without being so immature that you throw a hysterical fit when the narrative or art goes in a direction you don't like.

[Dragon Wukong]

It's kind of telling that the thread itself was made by someone who got banned for being toxic, and then made an alternate account in order to try and bypass said ban.

[OLKv3]

Don't care about this argument. Just acknowledge that Beerus is still your king and the absolute strongest. I'm back on the bandwagon