Dragon Ball Z 4:3 Steelbooks

[JustAlex1997]

I understand criticisms against Funimation when they clearly demonstrated their ability to do gorgeous remasters of the show with the Level Sets. However, I have to agree that people are being hyperbolic with their complaints about the latest remaster. I don't know how anyone could watch the Orange Bricks (hell, even the 2014 Blu-rays) and then call these "unwatchable".

Some vibrancy issues aside, nothing stands out as being insultingly bad (at least as far as the first season is concerned as I don't have the others). Even when standing close to my TV, I didn't notice much besides some slightly blobbier backgrounds. It's worse than it should've been, but I feel no interest in buying another release once I can hopefully complete this one. Even if Funimation completes the Level Sets, I won't upgrade to them.

I don't want to call people spoiled by past releases by any means, but no release needs to compare to those to be good.

[VanceRefrigeration]

Sometimes I get the feeling that people don't really understand why the Level Sets were good. For the most part, the Levels were good not because of what Funimation did, but rather because of what they didn't do. The Levels didn't have much (if any) DNR. The Levels didn't have a destructive sharpening filter that smears lines and makes edges artificially razor sharp. The Levels didn't have excessive brightness and saturation. The Levels didn't have a pink tint applied to them.

The Levels are a mostly honest representation of what Funimation has: a 3rd generation 16mm film print of a cel-animated show. On the other hand, the 30th Anniversary set completely mutilates that look. Just look at this: http://www.framecompare.com/image-compa ... n/910CJNNU
Lines are turning fat and smeary. Edges are becoming artificially razor sharp. There's a pink tint. This stuff stands out to me as soon as I see it. That filter is just utterly hideous. And the worst part is that it's not really fixable. If colors are off, that can be fixed. If there's too much grain for someone's liking, that can be reduced. But this line-destroying sharp-edge nonsense? We're stuck with it. Some people like or don't mind this ugly filter, and great for them. But for those who despise it, we're stuck with it being so obvious and in-your-face. If you don't see it or don't agree with any of this, then please try to actually articulate why you disagree, instead of just hand-waving criticisms as "hyperbole". Do you like the fat smeary lines or think they're okay? Do you think the razor sharp edges between the bright and dark parts of faces look natural? Do you prefer when Goku's hair has a pink tint?

I don't want to call people spoiled by past releases by any means, but no release needs to compare to those to be good.

IMO, what a release needs to do to be good is to be as hands-off as possible. If the film prints already look good, then all that needs to happen is a scan (already done) and some dirt clean-up (already done). That's it. This is not a case of them simply falling short of the Herculean effort needed to make the Levels. Rather, this is a case of the Mona Lisa being scribbled all over by a crayon; the thing already exists and is in good shape, but keeps being ruined for no good reason.

[kemuri07]

The problem with all that is, it's not really noticeable if you're watching the show at all. And unless you are a complete AV nerd who is well aware of these things, well you're probably not going to care all that much--and it's fine.

The problem isn't really criticizing the product, because I get that--it's the massive amounts of gatekeeping that occurs on this site that really puts me off. You guys have these super unreleastic standards for what apparently amounts to a perfect DB release and that anyone who disagrees with that are chumps being ripped off by Funimation. And apparently you guys are the only one who seems to know what's good for the DBZ community.

I like this site, but man you guys suffer from an echo chamber something fierce.

[Catsenti]

The problem with all that is, it's not really noticeable if you're watching the show at all. And unless you are a complete AV nerd who is well aware of these things, well you're probably not going to care all that much--and it's fine.

The problem isn't really criticizing the product, because I get that--it's the massive amounts of gatekeeping that occurs on this site that really puts me off. You guys have these super unreleastic standards for what apparently amounts to a perfect DB release and that anyone who disagrees with that are chumps being ripped off by Funimation. And apparently you guys are the only one who seems to know what's good for the DBZ community.

I like this site, but man you guys suffer from an echo chamber something fierce.

I gotta say, this guy has a point.

[VanceRefrigeration]

The problem with all that is, it's not really noticeable if you're watching the show at all.

Actually, it is noticeable. As I said, I notice this stuff immediately and it completely takes me out of the experience when there's the distracting unnatural sharp edges everywhere. Unless you're saying that some people notice it and some people don't, in which case...yeah, that's what I've been saying. For the people who don't, great for them. For the people who do, it really sucks to be stuck with it.

The problem isn't really criticizing the product, because I get that--it's the massive amounts of gatekeeping that occurs on this site that really puts me off. You guys have these super unreleastic standards for what apparently amounts to a perfect DB release and that anyone who disagrees with that are chumps being ripped off by Funimation. And apparently you guys are the only one who seems to know what's good for the DBZ community.

I like this site, but man you guys suffer from an echo chamber something fierce.

Well you say that, but it seems like there's more people who are fine with this product than not on just the last few pages of this thread. One could even make the argument that some advocating in favor of this set are "gatekeeping" against those criticizing it by pretending like the latter are being hyperbolic or only feigning their dislike to "look cool". And who is "you guys" anyway? Be specific. Respond to specific people and debate specific points, don't just lump everyone into a singular category.

[kemuri07]

It's not just this thread. There's a whole bunch of threads in this site where because a DBZ release isn't pitch-perfect exactly like the original japanese broadcasting than it's garbage and trash. The Funi dub is a blight on mankind and blah blah blah blah.

[Catsenti]

It's not just this thread. There's a whole bunch of threads in this site where because a DBZ release isn't pitch-perfect exactly like the original japanese broadcasting than it's garbage and trash. The Funi dub is a blight on mankind and blah blah blah blah.

This. Everyone here can be a little elitist sometimes.

[LettuceJUMP]

Sometimes I get the feeling that people don't really understand why the Level Sets were good. For the most part, the Levels were good not because of what Funimation did, but rather because of what they didn't do. The Levels didn't have much (if any) DNR. The Levels didn't have a destructive sharpening filter that smears lines and makes edges artificially razor sharp. The Levels didn't have excessive brightness and saturation. The Levels didn't have a pink tint applied to them.

The Levels are a mostly honest representation of what Funimation has: a 3rd generation 16mm film print of a cel-animated show. On the other hand, the 30th Anniversary set completely mutilates that look. Just look at this: http://www.framecompare.com/image-compa ... n/910CJNNU
Lines are turning fat and smeary. Edges are becoming artificially razor sharp. There's a pink tint. This stuff stands out to me as soon as I see it. That filter is just utterly hideous. And the worst part is that it's not really fixable. If colors are off, that can be fixed. If there's too much grain for someone's liking, that can be reduced. But this line-destroying sharp-edge nonsense? We're stuck with it. Some people like or don't mind this ugly filter, and great for them. But for those who despise it, we're stuck with it being so obvious and in-your-face. If you don't see it or don't agree with any of this, then please try to actually articulate why you disagree, instead of just hand-waving criticisms as "hyperbole". Do you like the fat smeary lines or think they're okay? Do you think the razor sharp edges between the bright and dark parts of faces look natural? Do you prefer when Goku's hair has a pink tint?

I don't want to call people spoiled by past releases by any means, but no release needs to compare to those to be good.

IMO, what a release needs to do to be good is to be as hands-off as possible. If the film prints already look good, then all that needs to happen is a scan (already done) and some dirt clean-up (already done). That's it. This is not a case of them simply falling short of the Herculean effort needed to make the Levels. Rather, this is a case of the Mona Lisa being scribbled all over by a crayon; the thing already exists and is in good shape, but keeps being ruined for no good reason.

I love dragon ball and feel all other dragon ball fans are part of a community. This show is special to me. And i want others to buy and watch it and enjoy it. My question to you is, if someone wants to watch dbz from start to finish (level sets are far from complete) wouldn’t you say the steelbooks are the best complete affordable release? I’m not asking your opinion on the set because clearly you are not a fan. But you have to admit it is much better than the orange bricks and the blu-ray 16x9 sets. We all realize it’s not perfect. But from what we have, and we love dbz, this is the most recommended release. (And please understand the dragon boxes were the best option when they were 1) available and 2)affordable and 3) dvd’s were relevant)
I respect everyone’s opinion, and part of me laughs at how many different releases I have owned of dbz since the vhs’s and individual dvd releases. Funimation makes VERY SMALL gradual improvements. But it is hard to argue this is the most affordable 4:3 1080p release.

[VanceRefrigeration]

What I find odd is this sudden talk of "gatekeeping" and "elitism". What exactly prompted these comments anyway? Again, the discussion is about these steelbooks/30A release. And over the last page or so, I think I'm the only one who has been criticizing these sets. I didn't criticize other users for their preferences, just the sets themselves. And I'm pretty sure that I acknowledged that not everyone sees things the way I do and that this is okay.

So those of you using those terms, please be specific and point out what has been said to suddenly prompt talk of "gatekeeping" and "elitism". Vague allusions to other threads or "everyone" or "you guys" don't help anything.

I love dragon ball and feel all other dragon ball fans are part of a community. This show is special to me. And i want others to buy and watch it and enjoy it. My question to you is, if someone wants to watch dbz from start to finish (level sets are far from complete) wouldn’t you say the steelbooks are the best complete affordable release? I’m not asking your opinion on the set because clearly you are not a fan. But you have to admit it is much better than the orange bricks and the blu-ray 16x9 sets. We all realize it’s not perfect. But from what we have, and we love dbz, this is the most recommended release. (And please understand the dragon boxes were the best option when they were 1) available and 2)affordable and 3) dvd’s were relevant)
I respect everyone’s opinion, and part of me laughs at how many different releases I have owned of dbz since the vhs’s and individual dvd releases. Funimation makes VERY SMALL gradual improvements. But it is hard to argue this is the most affordable 4:3 1080p release.

Yes I would agree with that. I think they are hideous, but yes, they are the best option currently on sale.

[LettuceJUMP]

And if/when another release comes out and has less DNR similar to level sets or an hd dbox I will gladly sell these. But until then. This will be how i watch the show

[VanceRefrigeration]

Yeah and I just want to clarify that I'm not criticizing individuals for purchasing this set, I'm just criticizing the product itself. No one should feel the need to justify their purchases. If you think it's good enough, then that's that. Everyone has a different barometer on how they feel about the different releases. For people like me who think these sets are hideous, it's made worse by the fact that there's not really an alternative, especially when we bring up the topic of how to recommend the show to others. The Dragon Boxes are not in print, and are standard definition, so that leaves us with....this. So when I criticize, I'm only criticizing the product and Funimation for being the ones to create this situation in the first place. I'm not criticizing the fans who are just choosing between some not-so-ideal options.

[eledoremassis02]

Just saw this today and had no idea they re-released this in steelbook lol


I don't think any of these got advertising

[Kendamu]

Yeah, the gatekeeping (in the most general sense and not accusing anyone here) is getting super old and I'm just done waiting for other people to be happy before I buy something that's just for my private viewing in my own home. I think a lot of us are just tired of waiting for permission from other people to be allowed to enjoy a product without being treated like rubes for it.

We know what we're getting and we came to the conclusion that this is an acceptable way to watch DBZ.

Also a lot of these gatekeeping folks are like, "The Blue and Green Bricks are pretty decent" and then when the Steelbooks do pretty much the exact same thing it's suddenly a tragedy or whatever. Like, why is it that it's cool to watch a pretty decent release of DB or GT but if I wanna watch Z then I need to be a perfectionist? It makes no sense.

I don't even LIKE the Z anime as much as I do the DB anime and I'm okay with the Blue Bricks and nobody cares that I am. I'm done thinking people half my age have a say in what makes me a real fan and what doesn't especially when the standards arent even consistent.

Again, if you'd like to continue waiting for the cancelled Level sets to come back or if you wanna spend time color correcting the DBox in VLC, that's cool! Have fun! I encourage your efforts as long as they're not paired with you acting smug toward me because your 4:3 release (that you've had to further correct because it's not perfect) is from Japan and mine isn't.

[LettuceJUMP]

Yeah, the gatekeeping (in the most general sense and not accusing anyone here) is getting super old and I'm just done waiting for other people to be happy before I buy something that's just for my private viewing in my own home. I think a lot of us are just tired of waiting for permission from other people to be allowed to enjoy a product without being treated like rubes for it.

We know what we're getting and we came to the conclusion that this is an acceptable way to watch DBZ.

Also a lot of these gatekeeping folks are like, "The Blue and Green Bricks are pretty decent" and then when the Steelbooks do pretty much the exact same thing it's suddenly a tragedy or whatever. Like, why is it that it's cool to watch a pretty decent release of DB or GT but if I wanna watch Z then I need to be a perfectionist? It makes no sense.

I don't even LIKE the Z anime as much as I do the DB anime and I'm okay with the Blue Bricks and nobody cares that I am. I'm done thinking people half my age have a say in what makes me a real fan and what doesn't especially when the standards arent even consistent.

Again, if you'd like to continue waiting for the cancelled Level sets to come back or if you wanna spend time color correcting the DBox in VLC, that's cool! Have fun! I encourage your efforts as long as they're not paired with you acting smug toward me because your 4:3 release (that you've had to further correct because it's not perfect) is from Japan and mine isn't.

I agree. Enjoy the best 4:3 version of our favorite show. Prior to this I had to watch Kai to get a 4:3 version. The 16:9 orange bricks and blu-rays were below my minimum tolerance level. This is a passing grade in my books and can not wait to rewatch with my son. Enjoy all

[KBABZ]

We shouldn't be putting up with bad transfers of this show though. It's not like this is some unknown one-shot series, this is DRAGON BALL we're talking about here, one of the most popular anime on the planet of all-time. But consistently things happen that do no favours to the viewing experience, like the DNR and widescreen cropping, and if you're in the west the long-running issues with the Funimation dubs that are still a problem today.

The gatekeeping comes from a place of wanting folks to have an experience that represents the product accurately, but between the picture and the dub it's just about impossible to do this if you live in the west, and it has been pretty much as soon as it tried to step out of Japan. The Black Bricks added the extra issue of being a premium (and I mean premium) celebration of 2/3rds of the story and yet couldn't go the extra mile for it (that is, not NOT going the extra mile because the DNR and cropping takes work), it was a previous release without a crop and fake grain.

The Steelbooks and Manga UK releases are more acceptable because they're a cheaper, more consumer-level release that doesn't delete a quarter of the picture, so I have an easier time recommending it purely on that basis. (and SD aside, the Green Bricks are a very good release of that show). For many on this site, supporting things like the Orange Bricks and Blu-Ray Seasons is like saying "I don't care that the Infinity Saga is over-exposed and sharpened and cropped for Instagram because the circle shot in Avengers is cool".

[VanceRefrigeration]

Yeah, the gatekeeping (in the most general sense and not accusing anyone here) is getting super old and I'm just done waiting for other people to be happy before I buy something that's just for my private viewing in my own home. I think a lot of us are just tired of waiting for permission from other people to be allowed to enjoy a product without being treated like rubes for it.

We know what we're getting and we came to the conclusion that this is an acceptable way to watch DBZ.

Also a lot of these gatekeeping folks are like, "The Blue and Green Bricks are pretty decent" and then when the Steelbooks do pretty much the exact same thing it's suddenly a tragedy or whatever. Like, why is it that it's cool to watch a pretty decent release of DB or GT but if I wanna watch Z then I need to be a perfectionist? It makes no sense.

I don't even LIKE the Z anime as much as I do the DB anime and I'm okay with the Blue Bricks and nobody cares that I am. I'm done thinking people half my age have a say in what makes me a real fan and what doesn't especially when the standards arent even consistent.

Again, if you'd like to continue waiting for the cancelled Level sets to come back or if you wanna spend time color correcting the DBox in VLC, that's cool! Have fun! I encourage your efforts as long as they're not paired with you acting smug toward me because your 4:3 release (that you've had to further correct because it's not perfect) is from Japan and mine isn't.

Well I'm sorry you've experienced smugness from people about which releases you like or which ones you've purchased.

Though I also think it's important to see when comments made about said releases are purely academic and are not at all trying to pass judgement on the people who like and/or purchase them. Like if I say that I find the 30A to be hideous and unwatchable, I don't feel any sense of superiority to those who like the set and I hope those types of comments are not taken as gatekeeping. The only thing I feel when I say these things is irritation at the company putting out these releases.

[eledoremassis02]

I don't mind people not liking the set and understand that people want better, and that's fine. However, there has been a culture brewing, within the fanbase (not exclusive to this forum alone) of people (often with the privilege of having multiple releases) shaming others for buying/wanting to buy this set. If people don't want to buy it, that's all cool but a line is crossed when you try to get people to not buy it.

What kills me is it was this set that broke people, not the season blurays. I know I say it a lot but one of (if not the biggest gripe) about when the season sets came out was the fact they threw out that survey, that chose 4:3 over 16:9, and this fixed that.

In all honesty, this is how to explain every U.S release to someone looking to collect the series (cancelation is reflected in my pointing system).
http://www.framecompare.com/image-co...rison/9FCC1NNU
Singles 6/10
-Pros: 4:3, original dub, Optional Japanese title cards (starting with the Ginyu saga), Duel language (starting with the Ginyu Saga)
-Cons: Episode per vol. count (usual for the times), poor encoding, Saiyan-Namek edited and dubbed only
UUC 5/10
-Pros: Optional Japanese title cards, Uncut, tri-audio (the only U.S release to include the Mexican dub)
-Cons: Canceled, episode count per volume
Orange Bricks 3/10
-Pro: Optional Japanese title cards, complete series, Japanese, Eng w/ Japanese and U.S score)
-Con: Centered widescreen cropping, Noise removal that results in missing lines up until Cell arc
Dragon Boxes (Funi) 8/10
-Pro: Complete series, 4:3, cleaner Japanese audio, Japanese Title cards
-Cons: Poorer encoding than the Japanese DVDs, fragile packing (foil books), no U.S score, distortion in dark areas
Level Sets 7/10
Pros: Full HD presentation, true to source representation, all audio options from O.B
Cons: No optional Japanese title cards, Smaller episode count per volume, canceled
Season Blurays 6/10
Pros: "better" cropping, all audio options from O.B, HD presentation, cleaned up Japanese audio
Cons: 16:9 cropping, no optional Japanese title cards, visually jarring boost in saturation and color, excessive DNR
30th/Steels 8/10
Pros: 4:3*, all audio options from O.B, complete series, cleaned up Japanese audio, space-saving packing (30th), more balanced colors and contrast (compared to the season bluray), Full HD presentation
Cons: DNR, no optional Japanese title cards, fragile packing, grain layer applied after DNR pass

* while the same level of DNR is applied to both the season and 30th blurays, the zoomed-in nature of the season sets highlights the flaws of aggressive DNR.

[kemuri07]

The gatekeeping comes from a place of wanting folks to have an experience that represents the product accurately,

But my argument would be: who are you to claim what people should want? Why I say this place--and not specifically this thread, but the forums in general--is an echochamber is because there's quite a few members here who have gotten into their heads that not only are they the "real dbz fans" but only they alone know what's best for the community. And that is simply hogwash.

I had this issue with some of these threads, like the localization thread that tried to argue that Funimation was "ruining" DBZ for not producing a dub that was 100% accurate to the japanese dub and that Funimation was producing an inferior version of the show and that people keep buying it because they don't know any better and we gotta save DB for the next generation and blah blah blah blah." Goddamn that thread gave me such a massive headache. Because I guess for some people it's easier to accept that Funimation is this evil corporation hellbent on robbing DBZ purists from the perfect DBZ release, than the fact that we're the minority in this fanbase and Funimation is mostly focus on letting the average Joe easily pick up a bluray for the show--and that's ok.

[VegettoEX]

After observing the last several pages where it’s literally post after post after page after page of people saying they’re happy with the discs and enjoying them and there’s one comment about DVNR and more pages of people enjoying them...

I have to ask, do some of you just read what you want to read, or are you legitimately paying attention?

I hate to go “nun uh YOURE gatekeepijg!!!1” but it’s SUPER weird to see complaints about complaining come out of nowhere when so many people are going on for pages about enjoying this material. I wanted to post this yesterday, but the double-complaining seemed to die down again, and then the “gatekeeping” nonsense popped up again.

No one is “gate-keeping” anything here, and dare I challenge this “echo chamber” accusation?

[Jhanzie]

Could it be the Level Sets were a pipe dream from the beginning?

Animation runs at 24 frames per second, with 60 seconds in a minute that’s 1440 frames per minute. The average DBZ episode is 24 min so 34,560 frames per episode!!!

Perhaps FUNi was uncertain about the Level Set venture from the beginning, or perhaps they bit off more than they could chew... After all they are not a film restoration company.

But anyway, who even does restoration like this for cartoon (or anime) series??? I say cartoon because I am thinking of my American cartoons I own. Most cartoons of this era are released on DVD with minimal work done... because if the DVD is encoded well standard definition is pretty good, after all it isn’t live action and doesn’t have the same level of detail.

So the BD I do have of animated features are primarily Golden Age, timeless classics like Looney Tunes, Tex Avery, original Tom and Jerry, etc. But these are only a small handful of the 3 minute shorts and they are taking decades to release this stuff.

So back to DBZ... will we ever see a complete archival, definitive restoration of the complete series? I hope so but I really kind of doubt it. I don’t think FUNimation can fund this or that there is even a big enough market for it to make a profit.

What they could do is release the untouched HD scans that they have, that are already color corrected. The question is, how badly damaged are they? Apparently bad enough they considered it necessary to do the processing before releasing them commercially.

Think of the latest FUNi release of the DBZ movies on DVD and BD. There is quite a bit of visible film damage, scratches and specks, etc. They chose not to do the same level of video processing on these than they did on the series. Which makes me wonder if the series looks considerably worse as a whole.

I am kind of in the middle of the extreme opinions on here, as I think a lot of people probably are. I think FUNi was really trying to make DBZ look great on HD widescreen, with the Season Sets, and a lot of work was put into that: cropping each scene specifically, and trying to get the most out of it by going farther out to the left and right of the frame. And then with the 30th, they were trying to appease some of the objections raised with the Season Sets by going back to the 4:3 and trying to fix the saturation. I would really like to see FUNi’s unrestored HD footage, and even if it was moderately damaged looking I would still be good with that. But I am also good with the beer goggle version of the 30th that looks clean and sharp, even though I know it’s not quite true to the original film elements.