Vegeta believes himself superior to anyone entering the tournament in base form. That includes but is not limited to: Goku, Piccolo, and 18. His expectations aside, he accurately knows 18 and Piccolo's strength from 7 years prior. So, at the very least, he is beyond those levels of strength.
The defense that Vegeta would use Super Saiyan in quick bursts is unfounded and directly contradicted by his reaction to Goten doing exactly that. Vegeta was committed to not using Super Saiyan because it made no difference to him... so long as no one else did.
Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
Can you clarify where Vegeta says he is superior to anyone in the tournament using only his base form? Because I don’t see it. The context was about how the Saiyans compared to each other. Piccolo and No.18 aren’t Saiyans.Vertical wrote: ↑Wed Nov 11, 2020 7:12 pm Vegeta believes himself superior to anyone entering the tournament in base form. That includes but is not limited to: Goku, Piccolo, and 18. His expectations aside, he accurately knows 18 and Piccolo's strength from 7 years prior. So, at the very least, he is beyond those levels of strength.
The defense that Vegeta would use Super Saiyan in quick bursts is unfounded and directly contradicted by his reaction to Goten doing exactly that. Vegeta was committed to not using Super Saiyan because it made no difference to him... so long as no one else did.
So, you are telling me that if that Goku vs. Vegeta match happened as planned without any Babidi-shenanigans, and if Goku put Vegeta in a dire situation, that he wouldn’t switch to Super Saiyan to respond to that, because he felt commited to a rule that he wasn’t happy to agree with in the first place, that Goku wasn’t aware of, and that their kids eventually broke anyway? (Remembering that he used Super Saiyan Blue when directly told not to do so in the Dragon Ball Super manga when training with Goku). Like Trunks said, it could just happen in a reflex. There is no reason to assume they would never resort to that if they get invested in the fight.
Besides, weren’t Trunks and Goten when they disguised as Mighty Mask considered on par with No.18? Are there opinions on Base Vegeta being stronger than Super Saiyan Trunks?
Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
Spoiler:
Does it make much sense that he'd be stronger than Piccolo? Maybe not. Maybe Vegeta is just being extremely arrogant as always. Hard to say, but Toriyama has definitely at least retconned base saiyans to be a lot weaker since BoG. For what it's worth, I remember a lot of people being surprised that Goku was weaker than Freeza without transforming when that was revealed.
Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
Buuccolo hints at Piccolo > base children. That is pretty much a given.
So, how do they compare to the adult saiyans? at the start of the arc they seem to be not fodder for sure. Goten even seems to be a pretty good sparring partner for Gohan and Trunks gives Vegeta a decent challenge. They are not at their level, although I've read people say they actually are.
Then, they spend a couple of weeks in the ROSAT and they exit it on a whole different level seeing how much stronger the new Gotenks became.
Now they should probably rival their elders' base form, if not surpass it, right? the gap before wasn't unfathomable, but is still not enough to be the main power source for Buu after Gotenks defused, implying that whole new level is below Piccolo's.
So, how do they compare to the adult saiyans? at the start of the arc they seem to be not fodder for sure. Goten even seems to be a pretty good sparring partner for Gohan and Trunks gives Vegeta a decent challenge. They are not at their level, although I've read people say they actually are.
Then, they spend a couple of weeks in the ROSAT and they exit it on a whole different level seeing how much stronger the new Gotenks became.
Now they should probably rival their elders' base form, if not surpass it, right? the gap before wasn't unfathomable, but is still not enough to be the main power source for Buu after Gotenks defused, implying that whole new level is below Piccolo's.
Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
Chapter: 430 (DBZ 236), P6.5-6
Context: after Gohan asks that nobody becomes a Super Saiyan in the tournament
Vegeta: “…Well, I guess that’s fine. If nobody becomes a Super Saiyan, then the conditions are the same. My superior position doesn’t change…”
His superior position doesn't change, whether he is using Super Saiyan or not. Who does he believe himself superior to? Everyone.
His only goal in the tournament is to face Goku. The chances of them facing off in the first round are lower than possibly having to make his way through Piccolo/18 to get to Goku... yet he isn't worried.
Do you believe Vegeta would turn Super Saiyan before forcing Goku to? Do you think his pride would allow something like that?Hugo Boss wrote: ↑Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:30 pmSo, you are telling me that if that Goku vs. Vegeta match happened as planned without any Babidi-shenanigans, and if Goku put Vegeta in a dire situation, that he wouldn’t switch to Super Saiyan to respond to that, because he felt commited to a rule that he wasn’t happy to agree with in the first place, that Goku wasn’t aware of, and that their kids eventually broke anyway? (Remembering that he used Super Saiyan Blue when directly told not to do so in the Dragon Ball Super manga when training with Goku). Like Trunks said, it could just happen in a reflex. There is no reason to assume they would never resort to that if they get invested in the fight.
Trunks' opinion on the matter is unreliable considering the ease in which he and Goten use Super Saiyan.
They were considered as such, or close to, before turning Super Saiyan. This is supported by the Daizenshuu if you consider such a thing.
The opinion of Base Vegeta exceeding Super Saiyan Trunks is far from unheard of.
Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
They are absolutely not stronger than 18 in their bases. Trunks 'scared' 18 in Super Saiyan. She was completely in control of the fight before handVertical wrote: ↑Wed Nov 11, 2020 10:58 pmChapter: 430 (DBZ 236), P6.5-6
Context: after Gohan asks that nobody becomes a Super Saiyan in the tournament
Vegeta: “…Well, I guess that’s fine. If nobody becomes a Super Saiyan, then the conditions are the same. My superior position doesn’t change…”
His superior position doesn't change, whether he is using Super Saiyan or not. Who does he believe himself superior to? Everyone.
His only goal in the tournament is to face Goku. The chances of them facing off in the first round are lower than possibly having to make his way through Piccolo/18 to get to Goku... yet he isn't worried.
Do you believe Vegeta would turn Super Saiyan before forcing Goku to? Do you think his pride would allow something like that?Hugo Boss wrote: ↑Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:30 pmSo, you are telling me that if that Goku vs. Vegeta match happened as planned without any Babidi-shenanigans, and if Goku put Vegeta in a dire situation, that he wouldn’t switch to Super Saiyan to respond to that, because he felt commited to a rule that he wasn’t happy to agree with in the first place, that Goku wasn’t aware of, and that their kids eventually broke anyway? (Remembering that he used Super Saiyan Blue when directly told not to do so in the Dragon Ball Super manga when training with Goku). Like Trunks said, it could just happen in a reflex. There is no reason to assume they would never resort to that if they get invested in the fight.
Trunks' opinion on the matter is unreliable considering the ease in which he and Goten use Super Saiyan.
They were considered as such, or close to, before turning Super Saiyan. This is supported by the Daizenshuu if you consider such a thing.
The opinion of Base Vegeta exceeding Super Saiyan Trunks is far from unheard of.
As for Vegeta going SSJ....he allowed himself to be corrupted by Babidi for the edge over Goku.....I think he'll go SSJ
Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
I never said they were stronger. I agreed that they could be considered on par or close to and that view was supported by the Daizenshuu (if that matters).
Trunks' suppressed energy blast very much worried 18. I don't understand your use of quotes here.
How so?
He allowed himself to be empowered by Babidi for two reasons:
- to force a confrontation with Goku as his time was limited
- to close the gap between Goku and himself that he noticed during the battle with Yakon
Had the tournament not been interrupted, neither of those reasons would be relevant.
Even more so, if you follow a fixed multiplier system, Vegeta transforming would only lead to a cheap victory or delaying the inevitable, as his opponent would simply do the same resulting in the same disadvantage he had before transforming.
Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
Those are totally different translations. While the first one may help your point, the second one doesn’t. Vegeta is implying Super Saiyan boosts them all the same. He is not even saying he wil win the tournament, unless you are implying that Piccolo and No.18 are weaker than Freeza.
His pride didn’t get in his way when he asked Babidi for more power, so if Goku was stronger than him in all the forms, he would probably be in the superior position in the scenario Gohan proposed.Do you believe Vegeta would turn Super Saiyan before forcing Goku to? Do you think his pride would allow something like that?
Opinion? He was trying to justify why he cheated on Goten. If didn’t do that, Goten would probably have beat him. Super Saiyan made his response quicker.Trunks' opinion on the matter is unreliable considering the ease in which he and Goten use Super Saiyan.
Daizenshuu is describing the whole fight, in which they use Super Saiyan. They couldn’t be on par with No.18 in their normal forms, if their fathers are weaker than Freeza. If they were on par with No.18 in their base, the suit wouldn’t get in their way as Super Saiyans, which Trunks still judged as a disadvantage.They were considered as such, or close to, before turning Super Saiyan. This is supported by the Daizenshuu if you consider such a thing.
Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
She was toying with them when they were in base and more interested in figuring out who they could be. 18 barley used any power against them in their base. Everyone says supressed blast as if Trunks used like 1% of his power. Technically just firing a regular ki blast would be one that is supressed. Not to mention, her look was more shock at how strong Trunks and Goten were as SSJ as opposed to genuine fear that she couldn't take them. Trunks as an SSj is probably a bit weaker than her.Vertical wrote: ↑Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:02 amI never said they were stronger. I agreed that they could be considered on par or close to and that view was supported by the Daizenshuu (if that matters).
Trunks' suppressed energy blast very much worried 18. I don't understand your use of quotes here.
How so?
He allowed himself to be empowered by Babidi for two reasons:
- to force a confrontation with Goku as his time was limited
- to close the gap between Goku and himself that he noticed during the battle with Yakon
Had the tournament not been interrupted, neither of those reasons would be relevant.
Even more so, if you follow a fixed multiplier system, Vegeta transforming would only lead to a cheap victory or delaying the inevitable, as his opponent would simply do the same resulting in the same disadvantage he had before transforming.
As for your reasoning about him not having information that would make him more willing, he would learn Goku was stronger during the fight and would already be in a battle situation and too desperate not to use what he has to to win
Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
Gohan was a full power Super Saiya-jin in the manga.Mad Swami wrote: ↑Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:33 pmIt doesn't need any attention because it's so blatantly not the case. Dabura was fighting SSJ2 Gohan no? SSJ2 Gohan is stronger than SSJ1 Vegeta.Mireya wrote: ↑Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:14 pmIt was discussed in the last page and I made a point to add my opinion here... nothing wrong with it. If it had already been put to rest, why did you even make a case to quote me and kick forth the discussion?Hugo Boss wrote: ↑Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:41 pm
This point was already brought up in the page before and discussed. I fail to see what else you added.. Kid Trunks did exactly what I said to beat Goten, as he had a bit more experience. Not too hard to deduce that Vegeta can do at least that.
Anyway, Vegeta has no basis to claim that he is stronger than Piccolo, No.18 or anyone else in that form, so I don’t see why this line means anything.
Trunks didn't quickly use the SSJ in a burst either. He was with the form on until Goten touched the outside of the ring. It was slow enough for everyone to notice he was blonde.
He has basis for knowing he was stronger than Piccolo and #18 previously. He fought #18 and he very likely knew how strong Piccolo was in the CGs. So he thinks he's stronger than CGs Piccolo and #18 (defeating Vegeta). #18 likely didn't get stronger, so Vegeta remains stronger than her in base... with CURRENT Piccolo, it's more debatable.
Piccolo would be irrelevant wither way, whether he is weaker or stronger than base Vegeta... I personally do have Boo saga Piccolo as about as strong as base Vegeta, leaving Piccolo as twice as weak as SSJ Vegeta... which happens to be, more or less, the gap most have between SSJ Vegeta and Piccolo. I simply choose not to set aside Vegeta's comment in the spaceship because I'm not limited by set and fixed SSJ multipliers.The Toriyama point is just saying why would an author who enjoys a character cripple them in such a way. Also why would you assume Piccolo would be a weak SSj1 character
The tournament wasn't that important. His overconfidence didn't need any attention.
Vegeta litterally gave up on fighting. He probably started really going harder in the later years. If anything Piccolo should be stronger than Vegeta in his SSJ1 form
My only point about Buucolo is just because Buu adopted mostly Piccolo's persona it shows he is clearly stronger than the hybrids
Why doesn't it need any attention? It's a direct declaration of superiority from him. It's a direct clue that points at Vegeta as the possessor of greater power in comparison with the previous Piccolo and #18.
Nah, Vegeta is way stronger than Piccolo as a SSJ... unless you think Piccolo is > Dabra?
I already countered this point.
Why would SSJ1 suddenly become weaker than Oozaru? Like hypothetically if Vegeta still had his tail, he could go Oozaru. If SSj1 goes from 50X to 2X then Oozaru is stronger. Unless that somehow changes to. What about Kaioken? If SSJ1 is X2 then Goku would just use Kaioken X20 and kill everyone. It just makes zero sense
Goku and Vegeta hadn't their tails in the Boo saga, so I don't think the hypothetical involving a hypothetical Oozaru is relevant. There's the Kaioken for Goku, but I believe the theory of Goku channeling some of his SSJ power into his base state may work. That, and Akira Toriyama wasn't with multipliers and numbers in his head during the execution of most power scenes... so I don't like to limit the execution of the power statements scenes to multipliers.
Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
The one that I presented is likely the most accurate. Whether you believe it helps my point or not, neither support yours.
His statement does not imply this at all.
Oh, you believe the base Saiyans are below Freeza? Then this entire discussion is moot.
The situations are different, as noted in my previous comment to another user. Had the tournament continued he would not have felt so rushed, let alone had access to a powerup.
Goku being stronger than Vegeta simply means his estimation of Goku's growth was mistaken. It's an entirely different situation to comparing himself to Piccolo/18 whom he has exact knowledge of (at least their Android Arc levels).
If Goku is stronger than Vegeta in all forms then transforming is pointless, besides delaying the inevitable or attempting a cheap victory.
If Trunks is declaring that he could accidentally turn Super Saiyan on reflex, I am saying that his opinion on the matter should be relevant only to characters in the same or a similar situation, AKA he and Goten. Goku and Vegeta are more masterful and Super Saiyan did not come as easy to them... they are also grown adults... they should be very much in control of when they transform.
That's simply untrue.
"He and Goten then participated in the Adult Division as Mighty Mask, demonstrating strength on par with No. 18's, until she managed to see through their disguise."
She saw through their disguise when they transformed, meaning they displayed strength on par with hers before they transformed.
As above; if you believe the base Saiyans are below Freeza then discussion is moot.
The suit was already a disadvantage in their base forms. That did not change when they transformed. That simply means the disadvantage was not one that a power/speed increase could overcome. The fact that they were still attempting to hide their identities likely means they were concerned they would rip the suit, as opposed to it physically restraining them. It also still presented the problem of binding Trunks' legs/Goten's arms, obscuring Goten's vision against an opponent he can't sense and keeping the two bound together.
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Toying with them? There's nothing to indicate that. She was there to make money. Initially, that goal was synonymous with winning and that only changed when she made a deal with Mr Satan.
If that were true... why? If she were so much more powerful than they were, why not remove them from the ring? Why not tank anything they threw at her? Why not restrain them? All things she was shown to be able to do in that very same arena.
Suppressed is simply that, suppressed. Not his maximum power.
She has a constant sweat drop on her face from the moment she barely dodges their attack until she defeats them. She does not regain her composure until they're gone.
I honestly do not know how you could ever come to this conclusion.
So, you believe that Vegeta would want a cheap victory, then? The one foreseeable battle he has against his greatest rival.. and you believe he would be satisfied with a cheap shot? Will he pat himself on the back after that?
Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
I suggest you actually read the statements you quoted, because there is no implication that Vegeta is comparing his base form to anyone other than the Saiyans. Conditions obviously change if he is bound to be suppressed to less than 2% of his power against everyone else who is non-Saiyan.
About No.18 vs Trunks and Goten, it says they were on par until she managed to see through their disguise, not when she discovered their identity. That’s when she realized she could torn their suit apart with kienzan and disqualify them, that’s called seeing through a weak spot. They would be quite a nuisance to her, if she didn’t end the fight quickly.
As per Trunks’ own admission, the suit still put him quite a hindrance, so the best he could do was trying long range attacks until they landed. If he was that much stronger than No.18 he shouldn’t be worried about a close combat. He would straight overpower her.
About No.18 vs Trunks and Goten, it says they were on par until she managed to see through their disguise, not when she discovered their identity. That’s when she realized she could torn their suit apart with kienzan and disqualify them, that’s called seeing through a weak spot. They would be quite a nuisance to her, if she didn’t end the fight quickly.
As per Trunks’ own admission, the suit still put him quite a hindrance, so the best he could do was trying long range attacks until they landed. If he was that much stronger than No.18 he shouldn’t be worried about a close combat. He would straight overpower her.
Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
I've read the statement. There's nothing to suggest he is singling out Saiyans specifically. Vegeta believes himself stronger than anyone entering. If that changes when he is without Super Saiyan, then conditions have changed.Hugo Boss wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:28 pm I suggest you actually read the statements you quoted, because there is no implication that Vegeta is comparing his base form to anyone other than the Saiyans. Conditions obviously change if he is bound to be suppressed to less than 2% of his power against everyone else who is non-Saiyan.
Vegeta believes that: Base Vegeta > Anyone entering the tournament (so long as Super Saiyan is not available)
To see through a person's disguise is to recognize that person for who they really are. She saw through their disguise when they transformed. According to the Daiz, they were on par before that moment.Hugo Boss wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:28 pmAbout No.18 vs Trunks and Goten, it says they were on par until she managed to see through their disguise, not when she discovered their identity. That’s when she realized she could torn their suit apart with kienzan and disqualify them, that’s called seeing through a weak spot. They would be quite a nuisance to her, if she didn’t end the fight quickly.
The suit bound Trunks' legs, bound Goten's arms, bound them both together, and obscured Goten's vision against an opponent they could not sense. None of that changes no matter how high their power or speed increases. What does increase though is their likelihood of ripping the suit... revealing themselves... and ending their battle.
Unlike 18, he was still restrained by the limits of the suit. She was completely unhindered though and could not do the same.
Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
The problem is the manga doesn’t offer any evidence that Base Saiyans are stronger than even No.18, given how much difficulty Trunks was having even as a Super Saiyan, which makes Vegeta’s ambiguous line interpreted more favorably on the side that he is only talking about how the Saiyans would fare against each other. That, and you have Beerus’ direct line about how Base Goku is weaker than Freeza.. Anyway, you can choose to read them the way you want.
Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
Quick question:
How do you guys think Trunks and Goten, by the end of the Buu arc, fare compared to their elders at the beginning of the Buu arc?
Could post-arc Goten take pre-arc Gohan? What about post-arc Trunks and pre-arc Vegeta? in similar forms, that is.
How do you guys think Trunks and Goten, by the end of the Buu arc, fare compared to their elders at the beginning of the Buu arc?
Could post-arc Goten take pre-arc Gohan? What about post-arc Trunks and pre-arc Vegeta? in similar forms, that is.
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Nodeo-Franvier
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
How strong do you think Super perfect Cell is in comparison to SSJ2 Gohan? Personally I think Cell zenkai is similar to Vegeta early zenkai that give him30% powerboost.
Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
Do you mean teenagers Trunks and Goten? I think they are moderately stronger than No.18, but not quite as strong as Piccolo.
Almost as strong. Both can badly damage each other. Gohan has a slight edge if he puts all his heart into it.Nodeo-Franvier wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:32 am How strong do you think Super perfect Cell is in comparison to SSJ2 Gohan?
Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
No, I mean the kids after Goku killed Buu. Them compared to theirselves before the ROSAT, fighting Buu, dying, etc.Hugo Boss wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:20 pmDo you mean teenagers Trunks and Goten? I think they are moderately stronger than No.18, but not quite as strong as Piccolo.
Almost as strong. Both can badly damage each other. Gohan has a slight edge if he puts all his heart into it.Nodeo-Franvier wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:32 am How strong do you think Super perfect Cell is in comparison to SSJ2 Gohan?
That is, how strong could they have gotten throughout the Buu arc?
Could, in similar forms(base or SS), the DB-revived Trunks beat the Vegeta that promised him to take him to Burning Man or whatever he promised to do before Buu was even a thing?
Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
I think they are a little more accustomed to battle in contrast with their older selves. But not quite on the same level as their fathers from Cell Games, for example.
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GreatSaiyaman123
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
About half as strong as a fully powered SSJ2 Gohan, given how Gohan could keep hiim at bay after losing over half of his power.Nodeo-Franvier wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:32 am How strong do you think Super perfect Cell is in comparison to SSJ2 Gohan? Personally I think Cell zenkai is similar to Vegeta early zenkai that give him30% powerboost.
Going by other posts, do you mean right after Majin Boo's death? Then they're about the same as they've been throughout the arc, but I think Goten managed to close the gap between them. Their time at the Rosat was mostly focused on further perfecting fusion and improving as Gotenks rather than individually.Koitsukai wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:19 pm Quick question:
How do you guys think Trunks and Goten, by the end of the Buu arc, fare compared to their elders at the beginning of the Buu arc?
Could post-arc Goten take pre-arc Gohan? What about post-arc Trunks and pre-arc Vegeta? in similar forms, that is.