Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TobyS]

Altho Toriyama scripted the movie he didn't story board every fight.
I think Toei pulled their usual bullshit of showcase every form and have base do more then it should, and general disregard for scaling.

Like Vegeta wrecks him but gets forced into God, broly then gets the oozaru power x10 showing base broly was less than 10x weaker than God.

Goku is then able to fight him in base then SS1, which he should have got creamed and speed blitzed.

I thought charitably Broly calmed down a bit but's its a plot point he temporarily does while in the god bind so that's not the case.

I always went with the fan explanation that Fusion is as strong as the fusees current best form.

Base Vegito vs Buu, is SS3 so obviously needs to transform. And with times 50x he leapfrogs Gohan and Gohan Buu, but not by thousands of times or anything silly.

Base Gogeta manages to stab Zamasu with a ki blade, a sharp attack like that succeeding from a Blue Goku or Vegeta would be plausible, especially as Zamasu was expecting tired base Goku/Vegeta in there. They then transform straight after if I recall.

This explains why Base Gogeta isn't insta killed by someone who also couldn't insta kill blue Goku/Geets.

AND it's explains why pre God Vegito wouldn't help much against Beerus but then is relevant when it's bought back and stacked with god forms. Because that Vegito wouldn't have red to base it's base power on.

In the manga we only ever see Gogeta and Broly in SS don't we? And Blue goku and geets vs SS Broly. So maybe all the bullshit bad scaling didn't occur in the manga.

That's how I see it.

[Hugo Boss]

Base Gogeta manages to stab Zamasu with a ki blade

Actually they stab Zamas as Vegetto Blue.

[Koitsukai]

Yes, in base they do what Vegeta did to Perfect Cell with his Final Flash.

[SupremeKai25]

Huh, are you guys talking about anime or manga? Because in the anime Fused Zamasu OBLITERATES Base Vegito lol.

[The Undying]

I still don't see anything especially inconsistent about Goku/Vegeta's fight against Broly.

Broly does force Vegeta into his God form, but then Vegeta effortlessly one-shots him. After Broly powers up (and I'd say his transition into his Ikari form is already starting at this point, judging from the eyes) he catches Vegeta by surprise and ends up punching him through a mountain, but it's clear that the latter is completely unharmed afterwards. He's obviously worried that Broly could become a real threat if he keeps getting stronger, but that's the extent of it.

In that light, I don't think it's especially unbelievable that Goku could prevent himself from getting immediately creamed in lower forms via tricky maneuvers like IT after observing Vegeta fight him. It's not unlike what happens in the manga: Kale's power after transforming catches Goku and Vegeta by surprise, even while in their Blue forms, but as soon as they figure out her weakness and linear movements, they no longer deem her a threat. She, like Broly, relies strictly on raw power rather than skill or performance.

Even then, it's rather clear that Goku is getting his tail handed to him until he transforms into God.

[TobyS]

Huh, are you guys talking about anime or manga? Because in the anime Fused Zamasu OBLITERATES Base Vegito lol.

I'm basically never talking about the anime.

However he lands one suprise AND hax attack in base and then transforms immediately as I recall implying like SS1 against Buu, that he needs to do so.

So I guess the anime and manga are consistent there. Just that the anime makes zamasu fight blue better then toriyama wanted him to/makes sense (zamasu was weaker then black/Goku/Geets) so fused zamasu should be a good chunk weaker then them logically.

[TobyS]

I still don't see anything especially inconsistent about Goku/Vegeta's fight against Broly.

Broly does force Vegeta into his God form, but then Vegeta effortlessly one-shots him. After Broly powers up (and I'd say his transition into his Ikari form is already starting at this point, judging from the eyes) he catches Vegeta by surprise and ends up punching him through a mountain, but it's clear that the latter is completely unharmed afterwards. He's obviously worried that Broly could become a real threat if he keeps getting stronger, but that's the extent of it.

In that light, I don't think it's especially unbelievable that Goku could prevent himself from getting immediately creamed in lower forms via tricky maneuvers like IT after observing Vegeta fight him. It's not unlike what happens in the manga: Kale's power after transforming catches Goku and Vegeta by surprise, even while in their Blue forms, but as soon as they figure out her weakness and linear movements, they no longer deem her a threat. She, like Broly, relies strictly on raw power rather than skill or performance.

Even then, it's rather clear that Goku is getting his tail handed to him until he transforms into God.

I mean each to their own but Broly might have surprised vegeta with his power but it was hardly a suprise attack he wasn't ready for iirc I just watched the fight on YouTube and Broly lands a good hit in the stomach punting red vegeta away
Goku doesn't us IT. The gap between base a land as is a massive 50 and red is even stronger then the buu saga Vegetto multiplier on top of that. If he could even touch vegeta base Goku should be obliterated not just losing.

But that's just how I felt watching it you do you.

It felt like a Toei thing. I'd bet fifty quid that toriyama didn't specifically write that. Charitably it was rule of cool and showing off the forms for fun rather than not understanding the scaling.

Vegeta didn't try 19 in base after Goku lost, the series didn't used to do that.

[The Undying]

I mean each to their own but Broly might have surprised vegeta with his power

That's what I mean. The manga's ToP is nearly identical in its approach: Goku and Vegeta in Blue are both caught off-guard by Kale's new strength (Vegeta specifically is knocked away and very nearly eliminated from the tournament because of it) but it's later established that had they taken her seriously, they would have been fine. Cabba also attempts to stop her in plain Super Saiyan, but he's not obliterated or knocked unconscious. Same sort of beat here.

After Broly powers up, Vegeta still dodges every one of his attacks until Broly finally manages to connect, but he's totally unharmed by that attack.

Goku doesn't us IT.

This is one of those "you have to pause it to catch it" moments, but he actually does. And effectively, it throws Broly into a momentary state of confusion.

We'll agree to disagree, but I think there are much more egregious instances of wonky scaling in Super than this.

[Hugo Boss]

(zamasu was weaker then black/Goku/Geets) so fused zamasu should be a good chunk weaker then them logically.

I think it’s possible that the fusion between Zamas and Black has a greater result, because you are literally merging the same souls, so in that sense their level of compatibility is arguably greater than between Goku and Vegeta.

[SupremeKai25]

Actually even in the manga Fused Zamasu could have defeated Base Vegito, as Vegito needed to go Blue to fight him. Vegito was able to injure Fused Zamasu while in Base form, but that was only because Fused Zamasu was unprepared. It's shown many times that unprepared characters can be wounded by weaker opponents if they are not careful. For example, Goku was fatally wounded by that laser beam from Frieza's minion.

There's also the fact that Future Zamasu can't be TOO MUCH weaker than the Saiyans. If Zamasu was so much weaker, then every single attack he received would have torn his body apart. But that hardly ever happened. There's one time when Goku's ki blast destroys his head, but that's about it. So even if Future Zamasu was weaker than the Saiyans, he would still relatively be in that league of power.

Toriyama's draft doesn't matter. He might have planned for Future Zamasu to be extremely weak, and thus for Fused Zamasu to be weak too (so that Potara Fusion isn't required), but ultimately it is clear that the finished product had Fused Zamasu solidly in the league of SSB Vegito. Even if Vegito was overpowering Fused Zamasu, the fact remains that Zamasu FORCED him to go Blue.

(zamasu was weaker then black/Goku/Geets) so fused zamasu should be a good chunk weaker then them logically.

I think it’s possible that the fusion between Zamas and Black has a greater result, because you are literally merging the same souls, so in that sense their level of compatibility is arguably greater than between Goku and Vegeta.

Agreed. Goku Black and Future Zamasu are the same person -- Zamasu. Their compatibility is perfect, thus Fused Zamasu is superior to Gogeta, Vegito, or Kefla (compatibility-wise). Fused Zamasu is one person fused with himself, while every other fusion is two different people with different identities fused with one another. Gowasu even points this out: "I don't believe it... Zamasu, he merged with himself!"

Beerus thought a fusion between 17 and 18 would have been very strong, as they are twins and thus would have decent compatibility, so imagine how strong a fusion of the same person must be in that regard!

[Thani]

Actually even in the manga Fused Zamasu could have defeated Base Vegito, as Vegito needed to go Blue to fight him. Vegito was able to injure Fused Zamasu while in Base form, but that was only because Fused Zamasu was unprepared. It's shown many times that unprepared characters can be wounded by weaker opponents if they are not careful. For example, Goku was fatally wounded by that laser beam from Frieza's minion.

There's also the fact that Future Zamasu can't be TOO MUCH weaker than the Saiyans. If Zamasu was so much weaker, then every single attack he received would have torn his body apart. But that hardly ever happened. There's one time when Goku's ki blast destroys his head, but that's about it. So even if Future Zamasu was weaker than the Saiyans, he would still relatively be in that league of power.

Toriyama's draft doesn't matter. He might have planned for Future Zamasu to be extremely weak, and thus for Fused Zamasu to be weak too (so that Potara Fusion isn't required), but ultimately it is clear that the finished product had Fused Zamasu solidly in the league of SSB Vegito. Even if Vegito was overpowering Fused Zamasu, the fact remains that Zamasu FORCED him to go Blue.

(zamasu was weaker then black/Goku/Geets) so fused zamasu should be a good chunk weaker then them logically.

I think it’s possible that the fusion between Zamas and Black has a greater result, because you are literally merging the same souls, so in that sense their level of compatibility is arguably greater than between Goku and Vegeta.

Agreed. Goku Black and Future Zamasu are the same person -- Zamasu. Their compatibility is perfect, thus Fused Zamasu is superior to Gogeta, Vegito, or Kefla (compatibility-wise). Fused Zamasu is one person fused with himself, while every other fusion is two different people with different identities fused with one another. Gowasu even points this out: "I don't believe it... Zamasu, he merged with himself!"

Beerus thought a fusion between 17 and 18 would have been very strong, as they are twins and thus would have decent compatibility, so imagine how strong a fusion of the same person must be in that regard!

To be fair, the manga at least was pretty clear where Future Zamasu standed, as far as power levels goes: he was weaker than SSj2 Trunks. Goku only needed Super Saiyan God to completely overwhelm him.

In the anime, he was indeed able to handle the saiyans in their Blue forms, but he was still obviously outclassed. Goku backhanding him into a building without even looking at him should be "nuff' said" about the matter. So he could very well be somewhere around their SSG in terms of power, hence increasing the overall strength of Fused Zamasu.

[SupremeKai25]

To be fair, the manga at least was pretty clear where Future Zamasu standed, as far as power levels goes: he was weaker than SSj2 Trunks. Goku only needed Super Saiyan God to completely overwhelm him.

In the anime, he was indeed able to handle the saiyans in their Blue forms, but he was still obviously outclassed. Goku backhanding him into a building without even looking at him should be "nuff' said" about the matter. So he could very well be somewhere around their SSG in terms of power, hence increasing the overall strength of Fused Zamasu.

Oh I'm not arguing that Future Zamasu was weaker than the Saiyans, though at times he seemed to be overpowering them or anyway dodging several attacks, I'm simply dismissing the idea that he's completely fodder.

Put it like this: take an actual fodder character like Raditz or Nappa. Put them against Super Saiyan God Goku; well, a single punch would be enough to obliterate them. But that never happened with Future Zamasu, that's my point. He's weaker than Goku, but not so weak to the point that a casual attack could tear him apart. His immortality protects him from death and gives him perfect regeneration, but the fact that he can sustain multiple attacks from SSG-level opponents without being torn to pieces is proof that he can't be that far off from that level.

[Koitsukai]

Merged Zamasu is even with Perfect Blue Goku(if not a little below him, with the immortality giving him the edge or taking away the edge from Goku), he has nothing to do in Vegito Blue's league.
They have statements for that too, with Vegito being compared to Beerus, and later on PB Vegeta, who should be at the level of Zamasu and Goku, being nothing but a joke to a supressed Beerus.

And I wouldn't say he was unprepared when base Vegito, BEFORE EATING A SENZU -something unnecessary in my opinion, there was no need to portray him to be that OP, mamed half of his body, he had an attack ready to go, he also knew something was going on.

If Vegito went blue was because of fanservice, and because he wanted to finish it quickly because of the time limit and the whole immortality thing that is quite a bitch, also you can squeeze perfectly Kaboom's fusion theory right here.
There is literally nothing implying Zamasu's power made Vegito go blue. I guess they made base Vegito blow half of Zamasu away before eating the senzu to prevent this kind of discussion.

[TobyS]

(zamasu was weaker then black/Goku/Geets) so fused zamasu should be a good chunk weaker then them logically.

I think it’s possible that the fusion between Zamas and Black has a greater result, because you are literally merging the same souls, so in that sense their level of compatibility is arguably greater than between Goku and Vegeta.

I disagree Goku and Vegeta had complimentary characteristics and got a boost from being rivals,

Shin and Kibito didn't make a powerful mix zamasu and zamasu should be even worse.

The only two potara fusions we see before this are evidence against it.

Edit: also I was agreeing with you that base Vegito couldn't solo in either version, that was my point.

I just prefer the mangas take that merged zamasu is weaker as I think it's far more logical.
It also make the perfected blue matching him plausible without perfected blue needing to be as powerful as blue fusion.

[Cipher]

Was Hit really stronger than Freeza?

In the anime Golden Freeza's true power was on par with ToP Goku who was like 10x stronger than U6 arc Hit

In the anime, Hit's definitely stronger, overwhelming Blue Goku after three years of training.

I'm unconvinced he's stronger than Freeza in the manga, although said three years of training makes it hard to provide a definitive answer. All we really have is that he's no match for full-power Blue, which Freeza was able to outmatch (though not effortlessly) prior to Goku and Vegeta's training. Although he's weaker, though, he also isn't completely dominated by that form, as the fight ends with him just barely dodging Goku's Kamehameha.

Hit's real threat, at any rate, is the difficulty of fighting around his Time Skip. Even those too powerful to be affected by it immediately risk becoming susceptible through it as they tire, if they can't finish the fight right away.

In the manga it's also hard to say which one is stronger in the ToP. Freeza has kept relative pace with Goku and Vegeta, while Hit has also gotten stronger and puts up a performance against Jiren that takes Goku by surprise. I think in both parts of the story it's safe to put them at reeeeelatively the same level, though I'd still probably give Freeza the slight edge as of the Universe 6 arc.

[ankokudaishogun]

Beerus thought a fusion between 17 and 18 would have been very strong, as they are twins and thus would have decent compatibility, so imagine how strong a fusion of the same person must be in that regard!

like, say, Super-17?

[SupremeKai25]

Beerus thought a fusion between 17 and 18 would have been very strong, as they are twins and thus would have decent compatibility, so imagine how strong a fusion of the same person must be in that regard!

like, say, Super-17?

Theoretically Super-17, like Fused Zamasu, would have been very strong due to the perfect compatibility of the fusées.

Fused Zamasu = Physically, half of him is Goku. But personality-wise, he is Zamasu fused with Zamasu.
Super 17 = He is Android 17 fused with Android 17.

I said theoretically because I am pretty sure it is mentioned somewhere that the "good" 17 part of the fusion sabotaged Super 17 from within or something like that. This is because one 17 was built in Hell and was pure evil, while the other 17 was the "good" 17 who was redeemed after the Cell arc and tried to resist Dr. Myuu/Gero's mind control. So, unlike Zamasu and Zamasu, their compatibility was not perfect even though they were technically the same person.

Or maybe they were not the same person after all. One 17 was a normal human teen modified by Dr. Gero, while the other 17 was a fully-fledged android created in Hell.

Who knows, GT is weird.

[GodVegetto91]

Manga Merged Zamasu is fully immortal, and as such, he’s able to do tremendously well against anyone who doesn’t use a sealing technique on him or is the Omni-King. Both Whis and the Grand Priest wouldn’t likely fare much better than Vegito did. Sure, he might receive far more damage, but he will always get back up again (as crazy as this sounds, I know!)

You’re free to disagree with me though, that’s perfectly understandable ofcourse.

But if Vegito Blue is currently still >>>> Current UI Goku... Who is >>>> Base Vegito who is >>> Completed SSJ Blue Goku who = Merged Zamasu in terms of strength... There’s likely a gap of many dozens of thousands of times between Vegito Blue and Merged Zamasu. Since SSJ Blue is such a huge gap over Base, and Base Vegito is already >>>> Merged Zamasu in terms of pure strength ofcourse.

[TobyS]

Manga Merged Zamasu is fully immortal, and as such, he’s able to do tremendously well against anyone who doesn’t use a sealing technique on him or is the Omni-King. Both Whis and the Grand Priest wouldn’t likely fare much better than Vegito did. Sure, he might receive far more damage, but he will always get back up again (as crazy as this sounds, I know!)

You’re free to disagree with me though, that’s perfectly understandable ofcourse.

But if Vegito Blue is currently still >>>> Current UI Goku... Who is >>>> Base Vegito who is >>> Completed SSJ Blue Goku who = Merged Zamasu in terms of strength... There’s likely a gap of many dozens of thousands of times between Vegito Blue and Merged Zamasu. Since SSJ Blue is such a huge gap over Base, and Base Vegito is already >>>> Merged Zamasu in terms of pure strength ofcourse.

Everything you said makes sense except base Vegito being better then Merged Zamas, he feels the need to transform in both mediums, he does it instantly in the manga.

[GodVegetto91]

So what kind of powercreep will we be getting by the end of this upcoming Arc?

Anyone able to guess??