Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[GodVegetto91]

Manga Merged Zamasu is fully immortal, and as such, he’s able to do tremendously well against anyone who doesn’t use a sealing technique on him or is the Omni-King. Both Whis and the Grand Priest wouldn’t likely fare much better than Vegito did. Sure, he might receive far more damage, but he will always get back up again (as crazy as this sounds, I know!)

You’re free to disagree with me though, that’s perfectly understandable ofcourse.

But if Vegito Blue is currently still >>>> Current UI Goku... Who is >>>> Base Vegito who is >>> Completed SSJ Blue Goku who = Merged Zamasu in terms of strength... There’s likely a gap of many dozens of thousands of times between Vegito Blue and Merged Zamasu. Since SSJ Blue is such a huge gap over Base, and Base Vegito is already >>>> Merged Zamasu in terms of pure strength ofcourse.

Everything you said makes sense except base Vegito being better then Merged Zamas, he feels the need to transform in both mediums, he does it instantly in the manga.

False. You have clearly not been paying attention to the Manga properly.. In the Manga, Base Vegito blasts off Merged Zamasu’s entire arm/left side of his body with a mere generic ki blast, totally relaxed and casually aswell!

While it took Completed SSJ Blue Goku his absolute FULL POWER on top of HAKAI to do something similair...

[Hugo Boss]

So what kind of powercreep will we be getting by the end of this upcoming Arc?

Anyone able to guess??

Someone stronger than Moro?

[GodVegetto91]

So what kind of powercreep will we be getting by the end of this upcoming Arc?

Anyone able to guess??

Someone stronger than Moro?

I mean, yeah... That seems VERY likely ofcourse.. But would this new enemy force Goku and Vegeta to fuse into UI Vegito or Gogeta???

That would be insane.

But also totally ridiculous and uncalled for. Lol

But we’ll see.

[TobyS]

Manga Merged Zamasu is fully immortal, and as such, he’s able to do tremendously well against anyone who doesn’t use a sealing technique on him or is the Omni-King. Both Whis and the Grand Priest wouldn’t likely fare much better than Vegito did. Sure, he might receive far more damage, but he will always get back up again (as crazy as this sounds, I know!)

You’re free to disagree with me though, that’s perfectly understandable ofcourse.

But if Vegito Blue is currently still >>>> Current UI Goku... Who is >>>> Base Vegito who is >>> Completed SSJ Blue Goku who = Merged Zamasu in terms of strength... There’s likely a gap of many dozens of thousands of times between Vegito Blue and Merged Zamasu. Since SSJ Blue is such a huge gap over Base, and Base Vegito is already >>>> Merged Zamasu in terms of pure strength ofcourse.

Everything you said makes sense except base Vegito being better then Merged Zamas, he feels the need to transform in both mediums, he does it instantly in the manga.

False. You have clearly not been paying attention to the Manga properly.. In the Manga, Base Vegito blasts off Merged Zamasu’s entire arm/left side of his body with a mere generic ki blast, totally relaxed and casually aswell!

While it took Completed SSJ Blue Goku his absolute FULL POWER on top of HAKAI to do something similair...

Yeah I was "paying attention" there's no need to be condescending, I don't have my manga in front of me I was going by memory, I thought he did the ki blade and then transformed. I stand corrected I guess.
Either way if the theory of Base Vegito = constituent forms max power that makes sense he can match Blue/MSSB.
But he obviously felt he'd need to go blue to either overcome his hax or last 30 mins against a hax guy like him, otherwise he wouldn't have done it and maybe lasted longer.

Weird that he didn't just go SS1 if he truly could fight him in base though, that's some odd scaling, guess it's all about the hax making him functionally stronger.

[Hugo Boss]

I guess a non-serious Zamasu is somewhat manageable by Base Vegetto, but if Zamas is serious Vegetto needs to get serious too? Much like how he fought Gohan-Boo.

[Koitsukai]

Vegito blew half of Zamasu away even before eating a senzu, they could've had him eat it off-screen, before engaging, but chose to had him eat it AFTER the fact. He can inflict that much damage even if he's not fully recovered.

Out-of-universe, his inclusion was nothing but fanservice. That's why he went Blue, Toyo felt we wanted to see Vegito with a god form (he was right, I guess). Introducing Vegito and having him go SS would've been a waste of potential and his inclusion would've been even more unjustified. They also needed the fusion to be surprisingly shorter, so he went full power.
Plus, the anime had already shown Vegito Blue, the manga having SS Vegito would've been unnecessary and underwhelming.

In-universe, Vegito was under a time-constraint while facing an immortal being. Going blue makes perfect sense, even if he was shown -not implied- to be stronger in base. Actually, blue wouldn't have been enough either to overcome Zamasu's immortality, trying SS would've been a waste of precious time. Vegito never had a problem with Zamasu's power, it wasn't about how to fight him, he needed to "overload" his body and the best bet for it was with blue.

Kaboom's theory fits perfectly here, though. In base he seems stronger, and his blue isn't as far from that level as it would be for Goku.

[SupremeKai25]

Everything you said makes sense except base Vegito being better then Merged Zamas, he feels the need to transform in both mediums, he does it instantly in the manga.

False. You have clearly not been paying attention to the Manga properly.. In the Manga, Base Vegito blasts off Merged Zamasu’s entire arm/left side of his body with a mere generic ki blast, totally relaxed and casually aswell!

While it took Completed SSJ Blue Goku his absolute FULL POWER on top of HAKAI to do something similair...

Yeah I was "paying attention" there's no need to be condescending, I don't have my manga in front of me I was going by memory, I thought he did the ki blade and then transformed. I stand corrected I guess.
Either way if the theory of Base Vegito = constituent forms max power that makes sense he can match Blue/MSSB.
But he obviously felt he'd need to go blue to either overcome his hax or last 30 mins against a hax guy like him, otherwise he wouldn't have done it and maybe lasted longer.

Weird that he didn't just go SS1 if he truly could fight him in base though, that's some odd scaling, guess it's all about the hax making him functionally stronger.

That's what I've been saying since the beginning. People can overhype Vegito all they want, it doesn't change the fact that he went straight to Blue after seeing Zamasu.

Which means that he thinks even his Super Saiyan God form wouldn't have been enough to deal with Zamasu.

Which means that Zamasu forced Vegito to go Blue right off the bat.

[Koitsukai]

False. You have clearly not been paying attention to the Manga properly.. In the Manga, Base Vegito blasts off Merged Zamasu’s entire arm/left side of his body with a mere generic ki blast, totally relaxed and casually aswell!

While it took Completed SSJ Blue Goku his absolute FULL POWER on top of HAKAI to do something similair...

Yeah I was "paying attention" there's no need to be condescending, I don't have my manga in front of me I was going by memory, I thought he did the ki blade and then transformed. I stand corrected I guess.
Either way if the theory of Base Vegito = constituent forms max power that makes sense he can match Blue/MSSB.
But he obviously felt he'd need to go blue to either overcome his hax or last 30 mins against a hax guy like him, otherwise he wouldn't have done it and maybe lasted longer.

Weird that he didn't just go SS1 if he truly could fight him in base though, that's some odd scaling, guess it's all about the hax making him functionally stronger.

That's what I've been saying since the beginning. People can overhype Vegito all they want, it doesn't change the fact that he went straight to Blue after seeing Zamasu.

Which means that he thinks even his Super Saiyan God form wouldn't have been enough to deal with Zamasu.

Which means that Zamasu forced Vegito to go Blue right off the bat.

Nothing would've been enough to overcome his hax, that's why he went blue, it was his best bet. His real enemy wasn't Zamasu, it was his immortality. Zamasu peaks at PB Goku.

And it isn't people overhyping Vegito, it's Toyotaro having Vegito's base blast half of Zamasu's body away without being fully recovered.
You can argue it was unnecessary but you can't argue it didn't happen.

[Thani]

Yeah I was "paying attention" there's no need to be condescending, I don't have my manga in front of me I was going by memory, I thought he did the ki blade and then transformed. I stand corrected I guess.
Either way if the theory of Base Vegito = constituent forms max power that makes sense he can match Blue/MSSB.
But he obviously felt he'd need to go blue to either overcome his hax or last 30 mins against a hax guy like him, otherwise he wouldn't have done it and maybe lasted longer.

Weird that he didn't just go SS1 if he truly could fight him in base though, that's some odd scaling, guess it's all about the hax making him functionally stronger.

That's what I've been saying since the beginning. People can overhype Vegito all they want, it doesn't change the fact that he went straight to Blue after seeing Zamasu.

Which means that he thinks even his Super Saiyan God form wouldn't have been enough to deal with Zamasu.

Which means that Zamasu forced Vegito to go Blue right off the bat.

Nothing would've been enough to overcome his hax, that's why he went blue, it was his best bet. His real enemy wasn't Zamasu, it was his immortality. Zamasu peaks at PB Goku.

And it isn't people overhyping Vegito, it's Toyotaro having Vegito's base blast half of Zamasu's body away without being fully recovered.
You can argue it was unnecessary but you can't argue it didn't happen.

It was pretty much Toyo giving fanservice. It's just... It was bad. He went for a rehash of Vegito's scene in the Buu Saga, but... Did we want to see that again? I for one enjoyed the anime's take, where he actually fought seriously against an opponent of his level. Which is fair, since God Zamasu was a potara fusion as well.

[Koitsukai]

That's what I've been saying since the beginning. People can overhype Vegito all they want, it doesn't change the fact that he went straight to Blue after seeing Zamasu.

Which means that he thinks even his Super Saiyan God form wouldn't have been enough to deal with Zamasu.

Which means that Zamasu forced Vegito to go Blue right off the bat.

Nothing would've been enough to overcome his hax, that's why he went blue, it was his best bet. His real enemy wasn't Zamasu, it was his immortality. Zamasu peaks at PB Goku.

And it isn't people overhyping Vegito, it's Toyotaro having Vegito's base blast half of Zamasu's body away without being fully recovered.
You can argue it was unnecessary but you can't argue it didn't happen.

It was pretty much Toyo giving fanservice. It's just... It was bad. We went for a rehash of Vegito's scene in the Buu Saga, but... Did we want to see that again? I for one enjoyed the anime's take, where he actually fought seriously against an opponent of his level. Which is fair, since God Zamasu was a potara fusion as well.

Yes, there was no need for Vegito to show up, they had already decided Zamasu was going to be an even match for PB Goku, there was really no point in introducing Vegito as the opening act.
He didn't even struggle in base while injured... I don't think anybody wanted to see Vegito dance around an enemy(again) and accomplish nothing. He was disgustingly shoehorned in.

The anime had a lot of fanservice, you can even make a case for how useful Vegito was there while being forced to go all out, but the manga's was just too much. The perfect example of bad fanservice.
I remember I started watching DBS after the U6 arc, and wondered if Vegito would show up, I wanted him to be actually needed. What the manga offered was just...

[GodVegetto91]

Yeah I was "paying attention" there's no need to be condescending, I don't have my manga in front of me I was going by memory, I thought he did the ki blade and then transformed. I stand corrected I guess.
Either way if the theory of Base Vegito = constituent forms max power that makes sense he can match Blue/MSSB.
But he obviously felt he'd need to go blue to either overcome his hax or last 30 mins against a hax guy like him, otherwise he wouldn't have done it and maybe lasted longer.

Weird that he didn't just go SS1 if he truly could fight him in base though, that's some odd scaling, guess it's all about the hax making him functionally stronger.

That's what I've been saying since the beginning. People can overhype Vegito all they want, it doesn't change the fact that he went straight to Blue after seeing Zamasu.

Which means that he thinks even his Super Saiyan God form wouldn't have been enough to deal with Zamasu.

Which means that Zamasu forced Vegito to go Blue right off the bat.

Nothing would've been enough to overcome his hax, that's why he went blue, it was his best bet. His real enemy wasn't Zamasu, it was his immortality. Zamasu peaks at PB Goku.

And it isn't people overhyping Vegito, it's Toyotaro having Vegito's base blast half of Zamasu's body away without being fully recovered.
You can argue it was unnecessary but you can't argue it didn't happen.

Now this is a good post. Good work

[ZombieVito]

In the anime, Hit's definitely stronger, overwhelming Blue Goku after three years of training.

Far from it. At the start of episode 39, Hit is not using his time skip and gets outclassed by SSB Goku. At Goku's request, Hit uses the time skip and thanks to Goku predicting it, Hit still gets outclassed. It's not until Hit improves the time skip that he begins to beat up Goku.

Without his time techniques, Hit can't beat a Super Saiyan Blue level character. That much is very clear.

[GodVegetto91]

In the anime, Hit's definitely stronger, overwhelming Blue Goku after three years of training.

Far from it. At the start of episode 39, Hit is not using his time skip and gets outclassed by SSB Goku. At Goku's request, Hit uses the time skip and thanks to Goku predicting it, Hit still gets outclassed. It's not until Hit improves the time skip that he begins to beat up Goku.

Without his time techniques, Hit can't beat a Super Saiyan Blue level character. That much is very clear.

Fine. Hit WITH his techniques is stronger than Blue Goku.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Sorry for being late for the show but I returned to the forum after a long while to get some opinions. So if you got a post where this has been asked for before please lead me to it!

Angelic Moro. The one confident in taking on MUI Goku. And just cause I love scales:

MUI Goku (current) is a 100. Then add as many as you want for reference like Jiren, ToP MUI, Broly etc. What I'm here for is Moro. How do you think he would compare to non-canon entities like Godslayer Hearts, Dark King Mechikaboola and ofc canon beings like a Moro arc Gogeta?Vegito. Would they need Kaio Ken introduced in the main series to defeat Moro in this form, or was the training Goku and Vegeta underwent enough?

[Triggered Vegeta]

Sorry for being late for the show but I returned to the forum after a long while to get some opinions. So if you got a post where this has been asked for before please lead me to it!

Angelic Moro. The one confident in taking on MUI Goku. And just cause I love scales:

MUI Goku (current) is a 100. Then add as many as you want for reference like Jiren, ToP MUI, Broly etc. What I'm here for is Moro. How do you think he would compare to non-canon entities like Godslayer Hearts, Dark King Mechikaboola and ofc canon beings like a Moro arc Gogeta?Vegito. Would they need Kaio Ken introduced in the main series to defeat Moro in this form, or was the training Goku and Vegeta underwent enough?

Not sure how he scales to those DBH villains. As far as current Fusion, SSB is sufficient to take out Moro quite comfortably imo. Moro,(Merus) is about as strong as Broly Movie Gogeta at least. That's a better fight. Current fusion, is just too much imo.

[Thani]

Sorry for being late for the show but I returned to the forum after a long while to get some opinions. So if you got a post where this has been asked for before please lead me to it!

Angelic Moro. The one confident in taking on MUI Goku. And just cause I love scales:

MUI Goku (current) is a 100. Then add as many as you want for reference like Jiren, ToP MUI, Broly etc. What I'm here for is Moro. How do you think he would compare to non-canon entities like Godslayer Hearts, Dark King Mechikaboola and ofc canon beings like a Moro arc Gogeta?Vegito. Would they need Kaio Ken introduced in the main series to defeat Moro in this form, or was the training Goku and Vegeta underwent enough?

Well, this is all according to the manga anyway

MUI Goku - 100
ToP MUI - 95
ToP Jiren - 90~95 (depending on how much he's pushing himself through sheer willpower)
Broly - 90
Beerus - 90+
Current Blue Fusions - 100
Gogeta Blue (Broly movie) - 95
ToP UI Sign - 80
UI Sign Goku - 85
Prime Moro - 85+
Moro 7-3 - 96~99
Moro 7-3 (Merus) - 100

It's kinda wonky to make this work without inflating things too much, and it still doesn't feel right. The powerlevels of the Moro Arc were kinda messy outside of a vaccuum.

[ZombieVito]

Fine. Hit WITH his techniques is stronger than Blue Goku.

But he couldn't even beat Goku lol.

Hit was screwed if Goku didn't forfeit the match.

[Koitsukai]

Sorry for being late for the show but I returned to the forum after a long while to get some opinions. So if you got a post where this has been asked for before please lead me to it!

Angelic Moro. The one confident in taking on MUI Goku. And just cause I love scales:

MUI Goku (current) is a 100. Then add as many as you want for reference like Jiren, ToP MUI, Broly etc. What I'm here for is Moro. How do you think he would compare to non-canon entities like Godslayer Hearts, Dark King Mechikaboola and ofc canon beings like a Moro arc Gogeta?Vegito. Would they need Kaio Ken introduced in the main series to defeat Moro in this form, or was the training Goku and Vegeta underwent enough?

Well, I should wait just one day and do this after the release of chapter 68, but what the hell. This might be an inconsistent mess, though, so fasten your seatbelt. Manga only and I have got no clue about SDBH.


Whis 300

Merus - 105
Current UI Gogeta - 105
Current Gogeta Blue - 100
Current UI Goku - 100
Morus73 - 100

SDBH Gogeta Blue (vs Hearts) - 98
Fuu - 97 (I literally have no idea where Fuu stands)
Super Hearts - 95-96
Moro73 - 95
Gogeta Blue (Broly) - 95
ToP UI - 95->93
SDBH Jiren - 94

Jiren - 91->93
Cumber - 93
Broly - 92
Vegito Blue - 92
Prime Moro - 90
Beerus +90 (my guess: 95)
Weakest Hakaishin - 89->90

SSBE Vegeta - 89
Current Sign - 89
ToP Sign - 85
Current Blue Goku - 85
SDBH SS4 Goku (including that limit breaker thing) - 85-89 (I have no clue but whatever)
Flashback Prime Moro - 84
Current Golden Freeza - 83
Saganbo - 83
Current Gohan - 82
Early GP arc Blue Goku - 82

Moro (Namek) - 80
ToP Blue Goku - 80
Zamasu - 80
ToP Hit - 80
Flashblack Daikaioshin - 79
ToP Gohan - 78
Kefla - 78

Moro (Magic restored) - 75
SSB throughout DBS - 73->75
Black Rose - 73
SSG throughout DBS - 71->73

Z Super Vegito - 70
Current Daikaioshin/Buu - 69
Old Moro - 68
Buuhan - 66
SS3 - 65 (I don't think the guys can take Buuhan yet without god forms)

[FishermanJohnWest]

The list depends on Beerus ranking, if Beerus is > Moro73 then Jiren is fodder and Moro isn't close to Broly

[Grand Marshal 1]

So the idea is that UI Moro is on equal footing with UI Goku. Which I agree with.

I had to ask since some people say that Moro is undeniably stronger since Merus + weakened 7-Moro-3 >> MUI Goku

Or I've seen the debate that angelic Moro cannot defeat Goku, but Planet Moro is actually stronger? Anyway Planet Moro is a can of worms on his own, easily contending with Kefla imo

Thanks for the opinions though! I kinda wish we saw a bit more of UI Moro or 'Morus' in the manga. I do question Blue Fusion being superior though. I guess it is up to the individual on whether Blue Fusion is actually above MUI.