Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[dragonball0900]

So, what's the power chain between PSSJB Goku/Vegeta, Gohan and #17 before the 2 months of training? The ToP was already pretty confusing about it: Vados says Kefla "might be unmatched in the battlefield" when the girls fuse, but when Gohan fights Kefla Kuririn says that he might surpass Goku if he keeps training. Now the Moro Arc was made things even worse: Goku says #17 is about as strong as he and Vegeta are, but then Piccolo says Gohan was the strongest warrior left on Earth.

So, how do the four (Or three, since Goku and Vegeta might as well count as one since they're always equals) compare to each other?

Goku and Vegeta are the strongest, then Gohan, and then Android 17. The statement Goku made about 17 is clearly vague. We have official confirmation that Gohan is not on Goku and Vegeta's level, yet he is repeatedly called as "the strongest without Goku and Vegeta". 17 doesn't even have feats that put him equal to Goku's Blue level unlike in the anime. Plus 17 couldn't beat Dyspo, while Kefla was stomping Dyspo alongside the other Pride Troopers, and we know Gohan is equal to Kefla, which shows that Gohan had way better feats than Android 17 by far.

We then see in the Moro Saga (post 2 months time skip) that even Piccolo surpassed Android 17 since he managed to hold his own alongside Gohan and lasted much longer against Saganbo, which again showed that Android 17 in the manga was not that strong.

[wolflonnie]

Strongest DBZ characters that these versions of Piccolo can defeat?

- U6 Tournament arc
- Universal Conflict arc
- Early Moro arc
- Late Moro arc

[dragonball0900]

Strongest DBZ characters that these versions of Piccolo can defeat?

- U6 Tournament arc
- Universal Conflict arc
- Early Moro arc
- Late Moro arc

U6 Tournament Arc: Probably above Cell. He's not reaching Majin Buu though, given that Goku had more confidence for Buu for the tournament.
ToP Arc: I would say Piccolo managed to surpass Fat Buu's level, though I would still put him below Kid Buu. This is all after training with Gohan for the tournament.
Early Moro Arc: I believe he surpasses Kid Buu, possibly around Buutenks and Buuhan.
Late Moro Arc: He clears easily. He was able to fight alongside Ultimate Gohan against Saganbo, outlasted Androids 17 and 18, and was stated by Goku to be barely recognizable.

[Koitsukai]

Strongest DBZ characters that these versions of Piccolo can defeat?

- U6 Tournament arc
- Universal Conflict arc
- Early Moro arc
- Late Moro arc

- U6 arc: He can't fight the same guy SS fights, even if the guy is tired. I'd like to say he can take out Perfect Cell, but I'm not sure, specially when in RoF he was saved by a rusty SS Gohan, and this happens not too long after Golden Freeza. Every non-Perfect Cell for sure, Cell Jrs. included, lose to him.
- By now, the Cell arc is a piece of cake to him. In the anime he trains with Ultimate Gohan, so he should be mid Buu arc level, around Super Boo. In the manga, he trains with Gohan as well but off-screen, so I think he might be able to fight Fat Buu, whose power was well considered althroughout DBS by Goku. As strong as current SS2 seems like a lot of growth when in the U6 arc he was below SS, and before he was saved by the weakest SS.
- Closer to Kid Boo I guess.
- People love jumping to conclusions when fights happen off-screen and place him close to Ultimate Gohan. I think he can't be below Super Boo, his roof is not clear.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So, in Chapter 62 Piccolo said fusion is no longer an option against Moro now that he has copied Vegeta's Spirit Fission. Since Spirit Fission requires dealing damage (Or at the very least making contact) with the opponent, does this mean Moro is at the very least on the same tier as SSJB fusions, possibly even UI Omen fusions now that Goku has unlocked it?

Goku and Vegeta, followed by Gohan, followed by #17. I think it's pretty explicit. Goku and Vegeta are the strongest, that's why Gohan doesn't want his father to waste his energy fighting off Kefla and wants him to take care of the strongest guy, Jiren, right away. Piccolo pretty concretely states that Gohan is the strongest on Earth at the time, which would include #17. Goku's statement about the artificial human is pretty vague; he says "he's about as strong as we are" but we saw pretty concretely that #17 scales to SS3 Goku beforehand. As Toyotarou is relatively rigorous when it comes to describing characters' strengths, he definitely would have had Goku transform further if the intent was to show he can scale to the God forms (we saw this with Merus the very next arc). Goku's statement shouldn't be taken literally, it's just an acknowledgement that #17 has gotten massively stronger despite apparently not training much and living a solitary, hermit-like lifestyle.

I think the scaling of the dragon team in the manga is made very clear-cut outside of who's stronger between current Gohan and Mr. Boo.

"About as strong as we are" sounds pretty clear to me. He's Blue tier, maybe a notch or two stronger or weaker than Goku and Vegeta, but still in that tier nonetheless. His scuffle with SSJ3 Goku before the tournament was something closer to a quick sparring match that ended with Goku begging him not to fire that blast, so I wouldn't call that concrete. Dende even says Goku and Vegeta should be happy he's not a bad guy anymore, so he's definitely a force to be reckoned with.

#17 also seemingly handled Moro on his own when he seemed to be somewhere between SSJG and SSJB back on Namek. That ties in with your question about Gohan: Gohan is the strongest fighter left on Earth, stronger than even 17 who might have been stronger than Dai Kaioshin Boo is.

Goku and Vegeta are the strongest, then Gohan, and then Android 17. The statement Goku made about 17 is clearly vague. We have official confirmation that Gohan is not on Goku and Vegeta's level, yet he is repeatedly called as "the strongest without Goku and Vegeta". 17 doesn't even have feats that put him equal to Goku's Blue level unlike in the anime. Plus 17 couldn't beat Dyspo, while Kefla was stomping Dyspo alongside the other Pride Troopers, and we know Gohan is equal to Kefla, which shows that Gohan had way better feats than Android 17 by far.

We then see in the Moro Saga (post 2 months time skip) that even Piccolo surpassed Android 17 since he managed to hold his own alongside Gohan and lasted much longer against Saganbo, which again showed that Android 17 in the manga was not that strong.

Gohan is not repeatedly said to be the 3rd strongest though, that's only alluded to once at the ToP. Piccolo later calls him the strongest fighter left on Earth but that has no bearing on Goku and Vegeta's abscence, it's about who is available to defend Earth from Moro.

17 has a couple feats defending Golden Freeza from Jiren's blows, and Dyspo was admitedly "pooped" from fighting #17; he was being threatened by Base Freeza of all people.

Strongest DBZ characters that these versions of Piccolo can defeat?

- U6 Tournament arc
- Universal Conflict arc
- Early Moro arc
- Late Moro arc

I think U6 Piccolo has reached Cell Games Vegeta level, so it's a coin toss between him and a Cell Jr here. His training for the ToP was mostly focused on bringing Gohan back to shape so I don't think he could've powered up a lot from that. But I do tend to be generous and say he got a couple times stronger in the two days he trained with Gohan, buffing him up to Boo Arc SSJ tier. I think he can give SSJ Goku a good fight but would still lose. Piccolo hasn't engaged in any action or heavy training to warrant a power up by the start of the Moro Arc, so he's still the same here.

By the late Moro Arc I tend to take the highball approach for Piccolo's power: He was keeping up with the god tiers, so he ought to be one as well. I think he can beat SSJ Goku Black from after Zamasu healed him.

[DestructoDisc]

When did #17 seemingly handle Moro on his own? Did I miss a chapter? The only time he fought with Moro, he couldn't do anything to him besides leaving a scratch on his body and impressing him with that. #18 did the exact same thing.

[Koitsukai]

So, in Chapter 62 Piccolo said fusion is no longer an option against Moro now that he has copied Vegeta's Spirit Fission. Since Spirit Fission requires dealing damage (Or at the very least making contact) with the opponent, does this mean Moro is at the very least on the same tier as SSJB fusions, possibly even UI Omen fusions now that Goku has unlocked it?

Well, later one he is placed as the strongest Goku's ever faced, so that puts him above Broly who couldn't lay a finger on Gogeta. It seems Moro is at least strong enough to do better than Broly vs a fusion, that is dealing, at the very least, some kind of damage, landing the hits Broly missed. With Spirit Fission one or two punches would be enough to tilt the scales in his favour.

So, no, not necessarily in the same tier as Gogeta Blue, although we should define tiers first. Being conservative, Moro is somewhere in between Broly and Gogeta Blue, which shouldn't be such a big place to be in. When it comes to put him in Gogeta tier or Broly tier, I'd put him in Gogeta's.
If Moro is stronger than Broly, but weaker than Gogeta, then between Moro and Broly there might not be such a clear difference in power for Goku to be so sure about where Moro stands, and he was pretty sure about it, making me think Moro is closer to Gogeta than to Broly.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

When did #17 seemingly handle Moro on his own? Did I miss a chapter? The only time he fought with Moro, he couldn't do anything to him besides leaving a scratch on his body and impressing him with that. #18 did the exact same thing.

Whoops, I meant 7-3 with Moro's power, presumably the power he had back on Namek. Which is basically the same as fighting Namek Moro.

Well, later one he is placed as the strongest Goku's ever faced, so that puts him above Broly who couldn't lay a finger on Gogeta. It seems Moro is at least strong enough to do better than Broly vs a fusion, that is dealing, at the very least, some kind of damage, landing the hits Broly missed. With Spirit Fission one or two punches would be enough to tilt the scales in his favour.

When exactly? Could swear Beerus was stronger than Moro, but if Moro really is the strongest then that changes everything.

[Thani]

Honestly, Moro could be only 1% stronger than Broly and Jiren and he would still be the "toughest guy I ever faced" from Goku's perspective. He's a master martial artist, he can tell the difference between two fighters, both in skill and ki, even if it's minimal.

That's not to say that he's only that stronger than them, only that "the strongest ever" doesn't necessarily mean he can curbstomp the previous "strongest ever". It held true in DBZ, yes, but not completely (with Freeza, Hit and Goku Black being more or less on par with the SSB's) in DBS.

[dragonball0900]

Gohan is not repeatedly said to be the 3rd strongest though, that's only alluded to once at the ToP. Piccolo later calls him the strongest fighter left on Earth but that has no bearing on Goku and Vegeta's abscence, it's about who is available to defend Earth from Moro.

17 has a couple feats defending Golden Freeza from Jiren's blows, and Dyspo was admitedly "pooped" from fighting #17; he was being threatened by Base Freeza of all people.

Every time Gohan's power is shown or mentioned, he is seen being as close to being blue tier, and stated not to be on the same level as Goku and Vegeta in Blue forms. First by Krillin, and then by Piccolo in the Moro Saga, when he said Gohan was the strongest, and Gohan assumed Goku and Vegeta were not there. Piccolo was aware of 17's level in the ToP, yet he still called Gohan as the strongest fighter on Earth without question, which meant 17 was not near Gohan's or MSSB Goku's level.

Android 17 still couldn't beat Dyspo. He doesn't have infinite energy like 17, which is why he got terribly tired. From what we've seen, the fight was off screen and did last quite a while. Against Kefla though, he was clearly being dominated even alongside his teammates, even with his speed. Kefla, and by extension Gohan, was on a whole different level from Dyspo, while 17 was not that far from Dyspo's level, given how their fight lasted quite a while. And let's not forget how MSSB Vegeta LITERALLY one shooted Dyspo and went to fight Toppo. Dyspo was already tired when Frieza went after him, and he and Toppo were on a dangerous area outside the arena. Frieza just used that opportunity to destroy their path. Toppo suggested Dyspo to leave him, but Dyspo said he was tired. That was it. Nothing says Dyspo couldn't fight Base Frieza if he wasn't tired.

All of this again, shows how 17 is clearly not on the same level as MSSBs, and shouldn't be overrated when it comes to his strength, since we have guys like Goku, Vegeta, Frieza, Gohan, Kefla and Toppo, all who are MSSB tier, all proven to be stronger than him.

[Koitsukai]

When did #17 seemingly handle Moro on his own? Did I miss a chapter? The only time he fought with Moro, he couldn't do anything to him besides leaving a scratch on his body and impressing him with that. #18 did the exact same thing.

Whoops, I meant 7-3 with Moro's power, presumably the power he had back on Namek. Which is basically the same as fighting Namek Moro.

Well, later one he is placed as the strongest Goku's ever faced, so that puts him above Broly who couldn't lay a finger on Gogeta. It seems Moro is at least strong enough to do better than Broly vs a fusion, that is dealing, at the very least, some kind of damage, landing the hits Broly missed. With Spirit Fission one or two punches would be enough to tilt the scales in his favour.

When exactly? Could swear Beerus was stronger than Moro, but if Moro really is the strongest then that changes everything.

Chapter 65

Spoiler:

Nothing was ever said about Beerus and Moro, but if the Broly movie quote about Beerus still stands...

Honestly, Moro could be only 1% stronger than Broly and Jiren and he would still be the "toughest guy I ever faced" from Goku's perspective. He's a master martial artist, he can tell the difference between two fighters, both in skill and ki, even if it's minimal.

That's fair, yes, but there's been a lot of uncertainties regarding the power comparisons lately, so if we finally get a clear cut statement, I'm guessing it's not just by a hair.

[Thani]

Honestly, Moro could be only 1% stronger than Broly and Jiren and he would still be the "toughest guy I ever faced" from Goku's perspective. He's a master martial artist, he can tell the difference between two fighters, both in skill and ki, even if it's minimal.

That's fair, yes, but there's been a lot of uncertainties regarding the power comparisons lately, so if we finally get a clear cut statement, I'm guessing it's not just by a hair.

Oh, I don't doubt that. I'm just saying it doesn't have to be. He could really be only that much stronger and still perform as he did because, really, I can see the other two performing similarly. In the end, those 3 characters are just that powerful by themselves.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Prime Moro vs Broly is a tossup

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Just put the latest 3 characters in the same general range.

Al of them are the only opponents in the series to actually eclipse past standard God of Destruction level, and they could all fight one another and be relatively even like the Gods of Destruction do among one another putting aside outside abilities for pure power and fighting ability.

Same idea with Golden Freeza, Hit, and Toppo; all 3 are the same general range of rivalling Goku and Vegeta's standard SSB form.

It's easier and seems to fit the current paradigm better, honestly.

[FishermanJohnWest]

Prime Moro vs Broly is a tossup

Depends on how Moro compares to Beerus

[Grand Marshal 1]

Prime Moro vs Broly is a tossup

Depends on how Moro compares to Beerus

I still laught at the fact that the comparison will probably never happen.

[dragonball0900]

I've been wondering about this: How strong are Current MSSB Goku and Current Omen Goku compared to the ToP?

We should remember how Gohan, who was equal to Kefla and not that far below Goku, got considerably stronger to the point that Goku could not recognize him or Piccolo, yet that same Gohan was fodder to Saganbo, with the latter walking through his strongest blast.

Then we have Current MSSB Goku dominating a powered up Saganbo (stronger than when he fought Gohan and the others, mind you) like he was nothing. It clearly showed Goku's considerably growth in power when training with Merus for months. And obviously, his UI Sign (Omen) got stronger the same way too.

But how does this compare to the ToP? Do you think Current MSSB got close to his Omen state from the ToP? Do you think Current Omen Goku got close to his MUI state from the ToP? Some people believe transformations should not be surpassed, but I can't see why not, given the crazy increases in power Super usually gives us. And this is a clear example of a crazy increase in power from Goku, and Vegeta as well, since he was stated to be above Current Omen Goku in just SSBE.

Where would you place Current MSSB and Omen Goku in relation to the ToP?

[Grand Marshal 1]

I've been wondering about this: How strong are Current MSSB Goku and Current Omen Goku compared to the ToP?

We should remember how Gohan, who was equal to Kefla and not that far below Goku, got considerably stronger to the point that Goku could not recognize him or Piccolo, yet that same Gohan was fodder to Saganbo, with the latter walking through his strongest blast.

Then we have Current MSSB Goku dominating a powered up Saganbo (stronger than when he fought Gohan and the others, mind you) like he was nothing. It clearly showed Goku's considerably growth in power when training with Merus for months. And obviously, his UI Sign (Omen) got stronger the same way too.

But how does this compare to the ToP? Do you think Current MSSB got close to his Omen state from the ToP? Do you think Current Omen Goku got close to his MUI state from the ToP? Some people believe transformations should not be surpassed, but I can't see why not, given the crazy increases in power Super usually gives us. And this is a clear example of a crazy increase in power from Goku, and Vegeta as well, since he was stated to be above Current Omen Goku in just SSBE.

Where would you place Current MSSB and Omen Goku in relation to the ToP?

Even if people use the "oMg GoHan Is UrecOgnIzaBlE" argument, they can't quantify anything lol. As a matter of fact, with Kefla never showing how strong she was compared to an actual blue tier character, she is up to debate to being up there. Even if logic dictated for her to stomp Gohan she didn't. Freeza was confident in defeating Kale in Golden, Kale defeated fodder. The fusion should hardly add anything from Caulifla's insignificant part.

For what it's worth, Goku chose to use Omen to distract Saganbo. Ofc that would be overkill, but he wanted to show off. Saganbo was strong, but could hardly utilize his power. A methodical Goku with Blue could easily take him out, especially after his training with Merus (which was more UI inclined rather than power inclined, unlike Vegeta).

Also people seem to forget how Saganbo tanked Goku, even got praised for being sturdy. I believe it's more of a question on which fighter is better, in the same ballpark of strength. So Goku rn in Blue is above Gohan for sure, but so was he in the ToP. Merging everything together, he shouldn't have had to get leagues stronger to perform like this. Everything in Gohan's name is the author praising him and giving him an ounce of reason to be there.

So imo, no Blue Goku gets dominated by ToP Omen, as he should be. But he comfortably defeats his Blue ToP self mid dif. Which means this applies to Omen, as current Omen mid difs ToP Omen, but the jump in power isn't enough to overcome ToP MUI, which is still near current MUI.

By how much? That is unknown. My speculation would be less than 2 times.

As for Vegeta, his strength-focused training boosted him enough to be in current Omen's league (in the ToP he was stated a step below), but with his Spirit Fission it was obvious that he would deal more harm to Moro. Now is he a bit stronger than Omen, is he not etc it doesn't matter. Cause if the enemy wasn't Moro he would probably perfrom as well as Goku. So same for him.

[dragonball0900]

I've been wondering about this: How strong are Current MSSB Goku and Current Omen Goku compared to the ToP?

We should remember how Gohan, who was equal to Kefla and not that far below Goku, got considerably stronger to the point that Goku could not recognize him or Piccolo, yet that same Gohan was fodder to Saganbo, with the latter walking through his strongest blast.

Then we have Current MSSB Goku dominating a powered up Saganbo (stronger than when he fought Gohan and the others, mind you) like he was nothing. It clearly showed Goku's considerably growth in power when training with Merus for months. And obviously, his UI Sign (Omen) got stronger the same way too.

But how does this compare to the ToP? Do you think Current MSSB got close to his Omen state from the ToP? Do you think Current Omen Goku got close to his MUI state from the ToP? Some people believe transformations should not be surpassed, but I can't see why not, given the crazy increases in power Super usually gives us. And this is a clear example of a crazy increase in power from Goku, and Vegeta as well, since he was stated to be above Current Omen Goku in just SSBE.

Where would you place Current MSSB and Omen Goku in relation to the ToP?

Even if people use the "oMg GoHan Is UrecOgnIzaBlE" argument, they can't quantify anything lol. As a matter of fact, with Kefla never showing how strong she was compared to an actual blue tier character, she is up to debate to being up there. Even if logic dictated for her to stomp Gohan she didn't. Freeza was confident in defeating Kale in Golden, Kale defeated fodder. The fusion should hardly add anything from Caulifla's insignificant part.

For what it's worth, Goku chose to use Omen to distract Saganbo. Ofc that would be overkill, but he wanted to show off. Saganbo was strong, but could hardly utilize his power. A methodical Goku with Blue could easily take him out, especially after his training with Merus (which was more UI inclined rather than power inclined, unlike Vegeta).

Also people seem to forget how Saganbo tanked Goku, even got praised for being sturdy. I believe it's more of a question on which fighter is better, in the same ballpark of strength. So Goku rn in Blue is above Gohan for sure, but so was he in the ToP. Merging everything together, he shouldn't have had to get leagues stronger to perform like this. Everything in Gohan's name is the author praising him and giving him an ounce of reason to be there.

So imo, no Blue Goku gets dominated by ToP Omen, as he should be. But he comfortably defeats his Blue ToP self mid dif. Which means this applies to Omen, as current Omen mid difs ToP Omen, but the jump in power isn't enough to overcome ToP MUI, which is still near current MUI.

By how much? That is unknown. My speculation would be less than 2 times.

As for Vegeta, his strength-focused training boosted him enough to be in current Omen's league (in the ToP he was stated a step below), but with his Spirit Fission it was obvious that he would deal more harm to Moro. Now is he a bit stronger than Omen, is he not etc it doesn't matter. Cause if the enemy wasn't Moro he would probably perfrom as well as Goku. So same for him.

Interesting observation.

What would be your scale numbers for each character's strength?

[Koitsukai]

During the ToP there was a lot of room for at least two power ups between Blue and Omen. We had Blue Kaioken and SSBE, and both were considerable power ups, even if they were easily defeated.

Current Gohan could have caught up to ToP's blue level of power, or even gone beyond that, perhaps even on par with early Moro arc Blue? that could be considered a pretty decent growth.
Meanwhile, Saganbo could be somewhere around, or above the power Goku failed to wield when he tried the principles of kaioken on top of Blue, that would probably be enough to deal with Gohan-tachi as he did.
Then the even stronger Saganbo could be as strong as SSBE, ToP's third strongest.
And Current Blue Goku would be above that, the closest character to ToP Sign.

Current Sign might be around Jiren's FP, before breaking his limits. Before that power up, Jiren was a step ahead of Sign.