Why did Toei make their characters worse in DBS anime?

[super michael]

In the anime Toei did everything possible to make Goku as stupid and unlikable as possible, but the question is why. Toei never made Goku look stupid in the past, so why make him extremely stupid now. The same applies to Chi Chi. Basically any knowledge or character development they had, Toei would throw them away.

Here are Goku examples:

DBS Goku = So what if you die King Kai, you are already dead. This is when recruiting C17.
DBS Goku = Goku doesn't realize someone doing something to slow him down. Chiaotzu uses magic.
DBS Goku = Goku the only one to not know Monaka is weak.
DBS Goku = Goku the only one who doesn't know that Beerus was lying.
DBS Goku = Can't tell he is fighting Beerus in a costume, even though the ki is of Beerus, costume breaking and no masking scent. Goku can hear their voice, smell their scent and Yamcha spilled the beans but nothing Goku is brainless.
DBS Goku = Forgets senzu beans, urn and talisman, which lead to Future Trunks time line being erased, since Mafuba was useless.
DBS Goku = Doesn't care that Vegeta was disappearing.
DBS Goku = Enjoys dropping his guard too much even when he knows he is the target and can get attacked at any time. His guard is so down that he can't react at all.
DBS Goku = Unable to keep secrets stated by Bulma.
DBS Goku = Forces anyone to fight him, even if they have no desire or just plain don't want to fight such as Monaka, Zamasu, Gohan, etc.
DBS Goku = doesn’t acknowledge any mistakes he does
DBS Goku = When Jiren ask Goku what would he wish for, Goku says that he doesn't know even though he saw the other Universe erased.
DBS Goku = Goku was annoying Whis and being impatient, even though Whis agreed to train him. Goku got so annoying that Whis considered not training him.

In DBZ Goku was scared that if dead Vegeta dies, he would no longer exist.
In DB Goku knew there was cheating in his battle with Tien.
In DB Goku was the only one who knew who was stronger between Tien vs Tao Pai Pai.
In DB Goku was the only one who knew Kami was lying.
In DB Master Roshi had to disguise his scent to fool Goku nose and have Nam far away to fool Goku. But later on Goku knew Master Shen identity by his scent, when Master Shen tried to kill him while asleep.
DB and DBZ Goku never forgets senzu beans.
DB and DBZ Goku cares when he sees or hear friend, family and strangers die. Remember Cell killing on the radio.
DBZ Goku was caught of guard by Jeice attack, but Goku was able to react.
DB and DBZ Goku was able to keep Kami and Future Trunks secret.


Now for Chi Chi she lights up on the rules in the Buu Saga, then in DBS she becomes 100% strict on fighting and training. She 100% forbids Goten from fight and training. Unlike in DBZ Chi Chi used to compromise and allow Gohan to travel to Namek, train for the Androids and the Cell Games.
In DBS Goten isn't allowed to do anything but study. Goku has no power to allow Goten to do anything.

Every time we saw Goten and Trunks and they showed interest to train and fight, it was always just a tease since they were forbidden. Why would Toei think that is what us fans want. We want to see them develop, train and fight.

DBS anime is a huge downgrade compared to DB and DBZ.

[Yuji]

My personal theory is that it's likely Toei took some influence from One Piece, either directly or indirectly, and made Goku more Luffy-like.

[super michael]

My personal theory is that it's likely Toei took some influence from One Piece, either directly or indirectly, and made Goku more Luffy-like.

That isn't a bad theory to be honest. When Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z existed and were popular, at the time One Piece didn't exist. Then when Dragon Ball Super was made, One Piece was one of the big 3 manga and the anime was popular.

Althought downgrading a character and losing development isn't a good thing. They should make a new characters with that flaw so there is no contradiction.

[Fable]

Unlike in DBZ Chi Chi used to compromise and allow Gohan to travel to Namek

Yeah...

train for the Androids

...no.

Her characterization in Super was more of an exaggeration of what we saw in Dragon Ball.

[Yuji]

My personal theory is that it's likely Toei took some influence from One Piece, either directly or indirectly, and made Goku more Luffy-like.

That isn't a bad theory to be honest. When Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z existed and were popular, at the time One Piece didn't exist. Then when Dragon Ball Super was made, One Piece was one of the big 3 manga and the anime was popular.

Althought downgrading a character and losing development isn't a good thing. They should make a new characters with that flaw so there is no contradiction.

I don't think the characters are all too different from their original characterization in the Super manga, so perhaps you should read it instead. Having an anime product made by the same company as the one responsible for One Piece perhaps necessitated a bit of overlapping in terms of writing staff.

[PurestEvil]

Preaching the choir, I think most of us know how shit Goku's character is in DBS. You do provide some excellent examples, though.

[Matches Malone]

Like Yuji said, it's definitely the result of them working on One Piece and it being such a success. The only problem is that Luffy is actually likable, while Super's Goku is one of the worst written characters I've ever seen.

[super michael]

Unlike in DBZ Chi Chi used to compromise and allow Gohan to travel to Namek

Yeah...

train for the Androids

...no.

Her characterization in Super was more of an exaggeration of what we saw in Dragon Ball.

The first image we later see Chi Chi allow Gohan to go to space, as long as he does his homework in space.

In the second image, later on when in the next page Chi Chi allows Gohan to train with Piccolo and Goku for 3 years. Then later Chi Chi allows Gohan to train in the ROSAT for 1 year.

I don't think the characters are all too different from their original characterization in the Super manga, so perhaps you should read it instead. Having an anime product made by the same company as the one responsible for One Piece perhaps necessitated a bit of overlapping in terms of writing staff.

The manga I don't have any problems. While the characters does dumb things I am alright, it isn't like they exaggerate it. As for Goten and Trunks not doing anything I don't mind, they are not teasing us fans.

It is weird that Toei are the one that makes Digimon Adventure Reboot and there is no problem. They don't make the characters act like Luffy.

[Koitsukai]

DBS Goku = So what if you die King Kai, you are already dead. This is when recruiting C17.
DBS Goku = Goku doesn't realize someone doing something to slow him down. Chiaotzu uses magic.
DBS Goku = Goku the only one to not know Monaka is weak.
DBS Goku = Goku the only one who doesn't know that Beerus was lying.
DBS Goku = Can't tell he is fighting Beerus in a costume, even though the ki is of Beerus, costume breaking and no masking scent. Goku can hear their voice, smell their scent and Yamcha spilled the beans but nothing Goku is brainless.

All of these are mainly for laughs. They are just gags, maybe they fall flat on most people, but they aren't new to the DB universe. Actually the Monaka thing is in the manga too, only they didn't squeeze it as hard.

DBS Goku = Forgets senzu beans, urn and talisman, which lead to Future Trunks time line being erased, since Mafuba was useless.
DBS Goku = Enjoys dropping his guard too much even when he knows he is the target and can get attacked at any time. His guard is so down that he can't react at all.

This happens in the manga as well, so it's unfair to blame only Toei. The latter was basically the character theme for RoF Goku, and the Hit rematch had Goku training that very aspect of himself.


DBS Goku = Doesn't care that Vegeta was disappearing. (they do have DB, Namek DB and SDB)
DBS Goku = Unable to keep secrets stated by Bulma. (didn't he perfectly keep the universe at stake a secret when recruiting for the ToP?)
DBS Goku = Forces anyone to fight him, even if they have no desire or just plain don't want to fight such as Monaka, Zamasu, Gohan, etc. (fair, annoying as hell, although it's the very first thing he wants to do when hears about Beerus back in BoG)
DBS Goku = doesn’t acknowledge any mistakes he does (fair but what mistakes though?)
DBS Goku = When Jiren ask Goku what would he wish for, Goku says that he doesn't know even though he saw the other Universe erased. (this isn't really being dumb, but pragmatic, besides he already made a promise to Freeza and could have an interest in bringing back Trunks' timeline)
DBS Goku = Goku was annoying Whis and being impatient, even though Whis agreed to train him. Goku got so annoying that Whis considered not training him. (fair)

Every time we saw Goten and Trunks and they showed interest to train and fight, it was always just a tease since they were forbidden. Why would Toei think that is what us fans want. We want to see them develop, train and fight.

Again, this isn't a Toei only problem. It seems to be in Toriyama's best interest to keep them away. IIRC, the manga doesn't even have them trying to join the main cast.

[SupremeKai25]

The way Goku treated Zamasu is really the only truly retarded/genuinely stupid thing from that list, but he ended up paying for it dearly, because an entire timeline was utterly erased as consequence of his foolishness. What an ironic twist of fate.

[super michael]

All of these are mainly for laughs. They are just gags, maybe they fall flat on most people, but they aren't new to the DB universe. Actually the Monaka thing is in the manga too, only they didn't squeeze it as hard.

The problem is why doesn't other character do these gags? Why does it always have to be Goku and constantly at that. In DB and DBZ there was gag, but they didn't go overboard and didn't make character regress for a gag.

This happens in the manga as well, so it's unfair to blame only Toei. The latter was basically the character theme for RoF Goku, and the Hit rematch had Goku training that very aspect of himself.

Manga Goku only does 1 mistake, which is he takes with him the wrong talisman. Goku remembered to bring a tag but got the wrong thing.
Anime Goku does 3 mistakes. No senzu beans, urn which got destroyed and no talisman.

As for dropping guard in the manga, can you remind me which battle that happened?

(they do have DB, Namek DB and SDB)

So Goku should show 0 emotion?

(didn't he perfectly keep the universe at stake a secret when recruiting for the ToP?)

True which make no sense what Bulma said.

(fair but what mistakes though?)

Not admitting his mistakes about the whole Mafuba and not listening to Beerus and Whis to start the ToP. I know Zeno had plans to destroy the universe anything, but Goku didn't know that. Goku only knew how powerful he was and Beerus warning. Then Goku not taking the recruit seriously and Beerus had to keep reminding him that it was his responsibility.
Lets not forget Goku acting like a villain towards the other universe, just to make them hate him more.

Again, this isn't a Toei only problem. It seems to be in Toriyama's best interest to keep them away. IIRC, the manga doesn't even have them trying to join the main cast.

The manga show didn't have Goten and Trunks show up, they didn't tease them or hype them in anyway which is better. The anime purposely made them show up getting us fans hyped so to turn out it was just tease.

[Koitsukai]

All of these are mainly for laughs. They are just gags, maybe they fall flat on most people, but they aren't new to the DB universe. Actually the Monaka thing is in the manga too, only they didn't squeeze it as hard.

The problem is why doesn't other character do these gags? Why does it always have to be Goku and constantly at that. In DB and DBZ there was gag, but they didn't go overboard and didn't make character regress for a gag.

This happens in the manga as well, so it's unfair to blame only Toei. The latter was basically the character theme for RoF Goku, and the Hit rematch had Goku training that very aspect of himself.

Manga Goku only does 1 mistake, which is he takes with him the wrong talisman. Goku remembered to bring a tag but got the wrong thing.
Anime Goku does 3 mistakes. No senzu beans, urn which got destroyed and no talisman.

As for dropping guard in the manga, can you remind me which battle that happened?

(they do have DB, Namek DB and SDB)

So Goku should show 0 emotion?

(didn't he perfectly keep the universe at stake a secret when recruiting for the ToP?)

True which make no sense what Bulma said.

(fair but what mistakes though?)

Not admitting his mistakes about the whole Mafuba and not listening to Beerus and Whis to start the ToP. I know Zeno had plans to destroy the universe anything, but Goku didn't know that. Goku only knew how powerful he was and Beerus warning. Then Goku not taking the recruit seriously and Beerus had to keep reminding him that it was his responsibility.
Lets not forget Goku acting like a villain towards the other universe, just to make them hate him more.

Again, this isn't a Toei only problem. It seems to be in Toriyama's best interest to keep them away. IIRC, the manga doesn't even have them trying to join the main cast.

The manga show didn't have Goten and Trunks show up, they didn't tease them or hype them in anyway which is better. The anime purposely made them show up getting us fans hyped so to turn out it was just tease.

1) well, the gullible, naive guy is Goku's trait only. It would work even worse if it was Vegeta beind duped. He has no idea what kissing is all about in the manga, so both media were taking Goku down to new paths where no positive qualities would be waiting for him.

2) he still forgot the most important thing. He brought a coupon instead, didn't bother to read it, glance it? I can't really blame Toei or Toyo, they were following Tori's outlines.

3) Not the manga, I meant RoF with all the Goku dropping his guard down speech and then Sorbet's lasergun. Although IIRC, Goku loses to Toppo because of dropping his guard.

4) To me, yes, they shouldn't be crying when some friend dies, or is about to die in vainilla situations, death lost meaning a long time ago. But I could understand it if Vegeta died vs Moro, or Buu, because then they would all have probably died, they would've lost.
Potafu arc? even if Vegeta dies and Goku can't defeat that dude(not likely), Goku can always teleport away from that planet, wish Vegeta back, and give it another go. There was no real tension in those crappy fillers.

5) I agree his attitude towards the other universes was unnecessary. And it was annoying when he disobeyed Beerus and hit that button but that was in the manga too. It wasn't Toei, that's Toriyama.
I don't remember the recruitment process that well, but if Beerus scolded him then it worked because he went and brought Freeza. He might have not admitted a "mistake" (rather negligence or disinterest) but he did something about it.
Goku's biggest mistake ended up saving 8 universes.

6) I rather liked that they kept them around, I would really not understand if suddenly they were not even around anymore. Them not fighting sucks, it makes no sense, but them not even being in the show would make less sense to me.

[super michael]

1) well, the gullible, naive guy is Goku's trait only. It would work even worse if it was Vegeta beind duped. He has no idea what kissing is all about in the manga, so both media were taking Goku down to new paths where no positive qualities would be waiting for him.

2) he still forgot the most important thing. He brought a coupon instead, didn't bother to read it, glance it? I can't really blame Toei or Toyo, they were following Tori's outlines.

3) Not the manga, I meant RoF with all the Goku dropping his guard down speech and then Sorbet's lasergun. Although IIRC, Goku loses to Toppo because of dropping his guard.

4) To me, yes, they shouldn't be crying when some friend dies, or is about to die in vainilla situations, death lost meaning a long time ago. But I could understand it if Vegeta died vs Moro, or Buu, because then they would all have probably died, they would've lost.
Potafu arc? even if Vegeta dies and Goku can't defeat that dude(not likely), Goku can always teleport away from that planet, wish Vegeta back, and give it another go. There was no real tension in those crappy fillers.

5) I agree his attitude towards the other universes was unnecessary. And it was annoying when he disobeyed Beerus and hit that button but that was in the manga too. It wasn't Toei, that's Toriyama.
I don't remember the recruitment process that well, but if Beerus scolded him then it worked because he went and brought Freeza. He might have not admitted a "mistake" (rather negligence or disinterest) but he did something about it.
Goku's biggest mistake ended up saving 8 universes.

6) I rather liked that they kept them around, I would really not understand if suddenly they were not even around anymore. Them not fighting sucks, it makes no sense, but them not even being in the show would make less sense to me.

1) But the thing is in DB and DBZ we are never shown that Goku knows about kissing on the mouth, so there is no contradiction. The closest we saw to Goku kissing was in DB when Chi Chi kissed Goku on the cheek in the 23rd Martial Art Tournament.
The anime doesn't care that Goku knew things in the past and make him forget.

This is something that people hated about Pokemon Black and White they hard reset Ash to look like a amateur, Toei did the same mistake for DBS anime.

2) There is no denying that is was dumb to get the wrong tag and not checking it. However it is still 1 error vs 3 error.

3) I have to reread the manga when Goku battled Toppo.

6) Did you really like seeing Goten and Trunks motivated to do things, when their parents always forbids them and kept secrets from them? That is a huge contradiction to EOZ.

In EOZ Goku and Vegeta says that thanks to the peace time on earth, they became slackers and didn't train. Heck Vegeta and Goku had to force them to join the 28th Martial Art Tournament. However in DBS we see that isn't the case and that they have terrible parents who doesn't lecture them, forbids from their dream and doesn't trust them to do anything.

[coola]

When i recently rewatched original Sailor Moon anime, i ve noticed flanderization seem to be often case with Toei, they take characters traits, and overuse it as series go on. In case of Dragon Ball, it really make me appriciate GT more, as it had characters actually mature, rather than regress.

Question is, how much of that is Toei fault, and how much Toriyama, who became kinda like George Lucas over the years (Return to franchise years later, and fails to deliver good product, in Lucas case, he listened to more experienced people, who toned down some of his silly ideas)

[Kataphrut]

When i recently rewatched original Sailor Moon anime, i ve noticed flanderization seem to be often case with Toei, they take characters traits, and overuse it as series go on. In case of Dragon Ball, it really make me appriciate GT more, as it had characters actually mature, rather than regress.

Question is, how much of that is Toei fault, and how much Toriyama, who became kinda like George Lucas over the years (Return to franchise years later, and fails to deliver good product, in Lucas case, he listened to more experienced people, who toned down some of his silly ideas)

I think it might be more on Toriyama than people like to believe. Look at this way, Toei hasn't written for DBS since the Tournament of Power, which ended almost three years ago now. But DBS Broly and the Moro arc had plenty of "stupid Goku" to go around. Plus things like Monaka, ignoring the warnings about Zeno and bungling the jar were baked into the story, so it likely didn't come from just the anime writers.

The question is, are people really surprised that the guy who famously criticised the original anime for making Goku too heroic is perhaps going overboard with showing off his flaws in the new stuff? Remember who wrote Resurrection F, the story where the heroes' biggest obstacle is their own incompetence, where they only succeed because they have god friends to help them out, and ends on a note of "lol we learned nothing from this!"

[Matches Malone]

The question is, are people really surprised that the guy who famously criticised the original anime for making Goku too heroic is perhaps going overboard with showing off his flaws in the new stuff?

I never understood this, as the heroic Goku scenes were also present in the manga. Toriyama may not have intended Goku coming off as heroic, but that's how he was presented in the manga, whether intentional or not.

[Jiren The Alpha]

i feel like Dragon Ball is the only franchise were people rants about gag scenes....

[super michael]

i feel like Dragon Ball is the only franchise were people rants about gag scenes....

Tell me why is it in DBS anime they made Goku do the stupid things on things that he knew or learned in the past? The kissing scene no problem, we never saw Goku kiss on the mouth before.

Regressing a character for the sake of gag isn't good. Like Goku being able to tell Kami lie and the strength between Tien vs Tao Pai Pai. But in DBS Goku can't figure it out Beerus lie and Monaka strength, even though Goku is supposed to be wise.

Here is a question, before DBS anime existed did people have a problem with DB and DBZ gag? If the answer is no then the problem is clearly DBS anime which goes too far.

When a character appears on screen motivated to join in the action, that is what fans wants to see. We don't want teasing just for them to do nothing. Notice that no other anime does this writing.

There are times Kid Goku self is more intelligent than DBS Goku.

[ChronoTwigger]

Again this thing?
Really?

So...
Goku fought:
A talking cat out of nowhere
Frieza again turning lime
A gummy bear
Dio Brando washed down
Himself mixed with the modified copy of another guy
Lycra boredom hero
A goat literally coming out of nowhere

... and you pretend SERIOUSNESS.
Seriousness from a guy that can destroy worlds by sneezing and NO REASON at all to be here.
Is not a Goku misreading.
Is about people that continue to purchase Goku plushies.

[super michael]

Again this thing?
Really?

So...
Goku fought:
A talking cat out of nowhere
Frieza again turning lime
A gummy bear
Dio Brando washed down
Himself mixed with the modified copy of another guy
Lycra boredom hero
A goat literally coming out of nowhere

... and you pretend SERIOUSNESS.
Seriousness from a guy that can destroy worlds by sneezing and NO REASON at all to be here.
Is not a Goku misreading.
Is about people that continue to purchase Goku plushies.

In Dragon Ball we had animal people, Korin a cat who was Goku mentor and a dog as king. DB and DBZ are consistant in story telling and character development. When it comes to gags they haven't done anything wrong.

Digimon Adventure Reboot is done right, even though it was done by Toei. But Toei puts hardly any effort to DBS.

If DB and DBZ had the same writing as DBS, then I can say that DB and DBZ wouldn't have been popular.
DB and DBZ are more popular and more liked than DBS by a lot. Before DBS existed, did people hate DB and DBZ? I know many people don't like DBS anime.