DBS treated Goten and Trunks really bad

[super michael]

It's established very early in Z by Nappa and Vegeta that halfbreed Saiyans (and in turn Gohan) are special. Goten and Trunks are a stretch, although Trunks did have access to the gravity room from a very young age, and also sparred with Goten which would have made him stronger too.

Goku turning SS1 was a major plotpoint given tons of buildup. It also came after him training under 100x gravity, and then later recovering from near death. While anger did trigger it, the transformation still came after all that previous stuff. It felt earned, and didn't just happen out of nowhere.

My problem with 17 (and Frieza) getting that strong is it contradicts the established logic of there being limits on how strong one can get from conventional training. In Z they needed either extreme gravity, extreme conditions, recovery from near death, or a strong sparring partner. Just training alone in the woods wasn't going to cut it anymore.

Exactly it was stated that normally Goten and Trunks would spar together. Trunks would train with Vegeta, while Goten would train with Chi Chi when Gohan was studying.

Goku trained in Kaio Planet which was intense training, then he did more intense training in the space ship. It was so intense his training that he almost died a couple of times. Don't forget Goku body major beat down when Ginyu was in his body.

Krillin with just gym training was able to give Base and Super Saiyan Goku trouble, even though Master Roshi in DB training was more harder than any kind of gym.

For Freeza it was established he never had to train a day in his life. So it’s not too out of left field that conventional training for four months would do him a lot of favors. He also didn’t train alone (at least in Super can’t remember Resurrection F) he used Tagoma as a sparring partner/punching bag

In the movie it is completely unknown what Freeza did, it is only in the anime that we know what Freeza did. The only thing we know is that he beat a weakling and nothing else. Just because Freeza has never trained in his life doesn't excuse him getting super power by beating a weakling.

Paragus had Broly as a training partner in a harsh and dangerous planet, yet he never got that powerful.

What about Trunks that was stated to train with Pilaf, Pilaf isn't powerful. It was the episode when Bra was born I believe more or less.

[MasenkoHA]

Paragus had Broly as a training partner in a harsh and dangerous planet, yet he never got that powerful.

What about Trunks that was stated to train with Pilaf, Pilaf isn't powerful.

You’re missing the point. Freeza was already naturally powerful so actually putting in effort for four months was going to wield results for him, a prodigy. Paragus and Pilaf obviously are nowhere near as powerful as Freeza was to begin with. And Pilaf isn’t a fighter.

[super michael]

Paragus had Broly as a training partner in a harsh and dangerous planet, yet he never got that powerful.

What about Trunks that was stated to train with Pilaf, Pilaf isn't powerful.

You’re missing the point. Freeza was already naturally powerful so actually putting in effort for four months was going to wield results for him, a prodigy. Paragus and Pilaf obviously are nowhere near as powerful as Freeza was to begin with. And Pilaf isn’t a fighter.

That is were we have different opinion, in my opinion putting effort into one training mean doing training that is hard and pushes one limit. An example is Master Roshi harsh training, just his mid morning training got both Krillin and Goku exhasted and then there was more training. Training with opponents more skillful or powerful is considered hard training and training in extreme gravity.

Freeza has got advance technology and knows his way in space, there was so many creative ways on how to train Freeza yet they came up with a lazy idea. How about training in a black hole or Freeza having his men create something so great, that it blows the viewers mind what kind of training he did.

[ABED]

Goten and Trunks are as strong as they are because the plot necessitates it. I'm well aware of the half breed issue but why are they able to stand any chance against enemies as strong as they faced at that point in the story? Just because and that's okay.

It's not whether it's out of nowhere that's the issue. Goku stood NO chance against Freeza and because he got mad he is able to treat Freeza as his punching bag. It's not bad storytelling but i'm just point out how if you take a step back it all looks silly. It's not about pure logic. It's storytelling not an RPG. The rules don't have to make purely logical sense.

My problem with 17 (and Frieza) getting that strong is it contradicts the established logic of there being limits on how strong one can get from conventional training

That's not established. He's a cyborg. He was made in a lab by one mad scientist who hadn't even seen SSJ but was far stronger for no other reason than the story said so. We don't know how 17 trained.

Exactly it was stated that normally Goten and Trunks would spar together. Trunks would train with Vegeta, while Goten would train with Chi Chi when Gohan was studying.

Gohan trained all the time in life threatening conditions and with the strongest in the world and yet Goten and Trunks were stronger because they sparred against Gohan and his mother? That you buy?

This is all placing way too much emphasis on the things that don't matter nearly as much like exposition of how characters got strong and not enough on the substantive issues of storytelling like arcs, characterization, and theme.

It's a shame that the Future Trunks arc doesn't do anything much with Trunks and little Trunks. It feels like there should be plenty there to play - Future Trunks seeing how different his childhood could've been and little Trunks seeing a grown up version of himself. Perhaps this could've played into the climax somehow.

[super michael]

Goten and Trunks are as strong as they are because the plot necessitates it. I'm well aware of the half breed issue but why are they able to stand any chance against enemies as strong as they faced at that point in the story? Just because and that's okay.

It's not whether it's out of nowhere that's the issue. Goku stood NO chance against Freeza and because he got mad he is able to treat Freeza as his punching bag. It's not bad storytelling but i'm just point out how if you take a step back it all looks silly. It's not about pure logic. It's storytelling not an RPG. The rules don't have to make purely logical sense.

Luckily for the story we are told Saiyan babies can be born weak or powerful, if that wasn't mentioned then you have a point. The story tells us how hybrid has this great potential, heck Nappa was planning of making an army of hybrid Saiyan, which Vegeta refuse since they could overpower them.

Goku Base form didn't get strong, he only unlocked a transformation. However Freeza weak training got his base form stronger than everyone and a transformation stronger than a God transformation.

That's not established. He's a cyborg. He was made in a lab by one mad scientist who hadn't even seen SSJ but was far stronger for no other reason than the story said so. We don't know how 17 trained.

That is what made DB and DBZ good, we are given explanation why character got strong and we saw them training, if they were off-screen they would tell us their plan on were they will train. With C17 we are given 0 ideas.

Dr Gero knows about the battle on earth and he saw Goku Kaioken vs Oozaru Vegeta. He saw how Goku grew in power from his fight against Raditz to Vegeta. He has enough data to know that Goku would get really powerful.

Gohan trained all the time in life threatening conditions and with the strongest in the world and yet Goten and Trunks were stronger because they sparred against Gohan and his mother? That you buy?

Not exactly here are the things we know about Goten and Trunks:
- Goten trained with Chi Chi, Chi Chi believe it or not has skills from the Turtle Hermit which was stated by Master Roshi himself. Chi Chi is weak but skillful. Goten power won't increase from this training, only his skills in hand to hand combat will increase.
- Trunks trained with Vegeta in the ROSAT. Vegeta at this time is the strongest person alive. Vegeta knows a lot about Super Saiyan transformation, hand to hand combat and ki control.
- Goten and Trunks trained together, which sharpens both their skill and power.
- Goten and Gohan trained together. Gohan is the second stronger person alive who has a lot of knowledge thanks to Piccolo and Goku.


Gohan did extreme training don't get me wrong, but he wasn't born when his father had Super Saiyan.

This is all placing way too much emphasis on the things that don't matter nearly as much like exposition of how characters got strong and not enough on the substantive issues of storytelling like arcs, characterization, and theme.

It's a shame that the Future Trunks arc doesn't do anything much with Trunks and little Trunks. It feels like there should be plenty there to play - Future Trunks seeing how different his childhood could've been and little Trunks seeing a grown up version of himself. Perhaps this could've played into the climax somehow.

I would have liked if Future Trunks stayed in the current time line, then both Trunks could hang out together and teach each other things. They can share how different their life are from each other. We only saw Future Trunks and Gohan hang out.

As for Future Trunks power, they could have had him learn God Ki from Goku and Vegeta or do the SSG Ritual. They could have him learn something to do with Genki Dama from Goku, so his Genki Dama Sword makes sense. There was the ROSAT to train, so Future Trunks power increase wouldn't seem bad.

[ABED]

Not what I was getting at. Gohan was as strong enough to make a difference then after the battle powers go up exponentially Goten and Trunks just happen to be able to help out and are able to turn SSj w/o requisite anger

That is what made DB and DBZ good

That is NOT what made DB good. Toriyama's idiosyncrasies, the quality of the fights and designs, and the likable characters - NOT the exposition.

The reason Goku turning SSJ works is not it explains how Goku is now able to overpower Freeza. It works because it had been set up that Freeza deep down fears the Saiyans would overthrow him. He fears the legend and in the end his sadism would be his own undoing.

He has enough data to know that Goku would get really powerful.

He flat out says Goku would likely level off due to age.

As for Future Trunks power, they could have had him learn God Ki from Goku and Vegeta or do the SSG Ritual. They could have him learn something to do with Genki Dama from Goku, so his Genki Dama Sword makes sense. There was the ROSAT to train, so Future Trunks power increase wouldn't seem bad.

It's not the darn explanations or training that's the issue. The Genkidama sword is a good idea b/c it goes to the heart of the story which was about Zamasu's hatred of mortals due to his belief in their innate immorality. I think a far better idea would be for little Trunks to give him the idea in a way that could only come from a kid. It's about emotion.

[jjgp1112]

Dragon Ball has ALWAYS made characters as strong as Toriyama needs them to be at any given moment, regardless of "logic." Through a single "zenkai" Goku went from slightly stronger than Captain Ginyu to going toe to toe with Final Form Frieza. That's how Toriyama rolls.

Toriyama was never beholden to power logic beyond the basics and the story is all the better for it. Too many people whip out their calculators when it comes to this shit.

[super michael]

Not what I was getting at. Gohan was as strong enough to make a difference then after the battle powers go up exponentially Goten and Trunks just happen to be able to help out and are able to turn SSj w/o requisite anger

The only thing Goten and Trunks were useful was their fusion, when they are unfused the only thing they did was when Trunks kicked Fat Buu off guard. We are told ahead of time that any small gains the boys make would result in their fusion making big gains.

That is what made DB and DBZ good
That is NOT what made DB good. Toriyama's idiosyncrasies, the quality of the fights and designs, and the likable characters - NOT the exposition.


The reason Goku turning SSJ works is not it explains how Goku is now able to overpower Freeza. It works because it had been set up that Freeza deep down fears the Saiyans would overthrow him. He fears the legend and in the end his sadism would be his own undoing.

What do you mean by exposition? Your right about the quality of the fights and designs and the likeable characters, however I enjoyed watching these characters train. The crazy training schedules and the incredibly hard training was enjoyable. I enjoyed watching Krillin and Goku swim away from a shark and then run away from a dinosaur.
Then their feat of working faster than machines was fun to watch, everyone is like surprise these kids are producing faster results than machines. The writing of their training makes it good.

Seeing Goku train in a gravity that made him struggle made us think, wow his training must be intense if he is struggling just to walk on the planet. Basically some training was crazy that it was funny and cool at the same time.

Your right about Super Saiyan, we are told over and over how Freeza fears a Super Saiyan and that is why he wiped out the Saiyan race. Then finally Goku gains that power.

He flat out says Goku would likely level off due to age.

I completely forgot about that.

It's not the darn explanations or training that's the issue. The Genkidama sword is a good idea b/c it goes to the heart of the story which was about Zamasu's hatred of mortals due to his belief in their innate immorality. I think a far better idea would be for little Trunks to give him the idea in a way that could only come from a kid. It's about emotion.

What about his unnamed Super Saiyan form that came out of nowhere? As for your idea with Present Trunks giving Future Trunks the idea I like that idea. But the thing is in DBS it seems they are scared to write any character doing hard training except for Goku and Vegeta.

In DB and DBZ we know that the humans did the same training as Goku, that is why we know they did hard training. In DBZ the humans trained with Kami, unlike in DB Goku trained with Mr Popo mostly. We know that Kami didn't see Goku progress.

[ABED]

What do you mean by exposition?

I mean the explanations for why characters get as strong as they get isn't what makes the story. The big value of a training scene or montage isn't primarily about explaining. It's about build up and drama.

[super michael]

What do you mean by exposition?

I mean the explanations for why characters get as strong as they get isn't what makes the story. The big value of a training scene or montage isn't primarily about explaining. It's about build up and drama.

I want to ask a question let say Fighter A and Fighter B both train and reveal their training.

Fighter A = He does extreme training that looks cool and hard, we see how he is physically struggling to complete his training. It is so hard that it can kill him if he is not careful. He does out of the world training level.

Fighter B = He just beat up a weakling on a normal environment, which is no challegen at all and not tiring or physically exhausting in anyway. There is absolutely no way to get injured or hurt at all.

In my opinion Fighter A training would be the better build up for his power gain, while Fighter B would feel like a huge let down.

[ABED]

What do you mean by exposition?

I mean the explanations for why characters get as strong as they get isn't what makes the story. The big value of a training scene or montage isn't primarily about explaining. It's about build up and drama.

I want to ask a question let say Fighter A and Fighter B both train and reveal their training.

Fighter A = He does extreme training that looks cool and hard, we see how he is physically struggling to complete his training. It is so hard that it can kill him if he is not careful. He does out of the world training level.

Fighter B = He just beat up a weakling on a normal environment, which is no challegen at all and not tiring or physically exhausting in anyway. There is absolutely no way to get injured or hurt at all.

In my opinion Fighter A training would be the better build up for his power gain, while Fighter B would feel like a huge let down.

17 doesn't win because he's the strongest on his team. He wins because the two strongest agree to take the biggest big bad out together. 17's set up was to establish that he's strong but he's also compassionate. That's what he brought to that story. He doesn't have the highest opinion of humans but still cares about them enough to wish them all back thus proving mortals' worth to the gods.

[MasenkoHA]

Fwiw Goten’s entire training was sparring with Chi Chi and learning the Bukujutsu technique from Gohan. Yet somehow he was only barely weaker than Trunks who sparred with Vegeta (whose obviously much stronger than Chi Chi ) and did the same intense gravity training as Vegeta. The only explanation we’re given for Trunks being stronger (and again not by much!) is that he’s a year older than Goten and not because of far more intense training.

Like Abed pointed out despite Gero giving up after the Saiyan battle (he thought he and 19 were strong enough they didn’t need 17 and 18) he conveniently designed 17 and 18 to be vastly more powerful than Super Saiyan Vegeta with 3 years advance notice training. And possibly stronger than Super Saiyan Goku.

[super michael]

Fwiw Goten’s entire training was sparring with Chi Chi and learning the Bukujutsu technique from Gohan. Yet somehow he was only barely weaker than Trunks who sparred with Vegeta (whose obviously much stronger than Chi Chi ) and did the same intense gravity training as Vegeta. The only explanation we’re given for Trunks being stronger (and again not by much!) is that he’s a year older than Goten and not because of far more intense training.

Like Abed pointed out despite Gero giving up after the Saiyan battle (he thought he and 19 were strong enough they didn’t need 17 and 18) he conveniently designed 17 and 18 to be vastly more powerful than Super Saiyan Vegeta with 3 years advance notice training. And possibly stronger than Super Saiyan Goku.

Your forgetting that Goten told Gohan that normally he would spar with Trunks. Don't you think that would result in them getting stronger? Whatever power and skills they make from their family, they would use it against each other in their sparring match.

Plus we know that Chi Chi doesn't know how to use ki attack, so he must have learned that from Trunks. The ki attacks that Gohan showed Goten was the Kamehameha and how to fly.

I do hope they shine in the new chapter. It was good that Goten and Trunks was pissed off at Gohan for keeping it a secret about the invasion on earth. I wonder how they would react if they find out about the ToP being kept a secret.

[ABED]

Sparring, not life and death battles against the best of the best.

All I'm pointing out is that the characters are often as strong as the narrative needs them to be. It's not the worst thing in the world. It feels like an awfully arbitrary line being drawn about what we are willing to buy regarding made up mystical BS like battle powers. It's not surprising though. We're nerds and nerds turn this stuff into math problems.

[super michael]

Sparring, not life and death battles against the best of the best.

All I'm pointing out is that the characters are often as strong as the narrative needs them to be. It's not the worst thing in the world. It feels like an awfully arbitrary line being drawn about what we are willing to buy regarding made up mystical BS like battle powers. It's not surprising though. We're nerds and nerds turn this stuff into math problems.

Sparring is training, even if it isn't life and death battles.

I know your right about how the plot dictate how strong someone gets, but it is still good to write their training with creativity and good. This way it doesn't feel plot based but actual effort was made by the character. Like here an example:

Goku + Gohan in the ROSAT.
Vegeta + Trunks in the ROSAT.

In universe Goku and Gohan trained better than Vegeta and Trunks, since Goku and Gohan mastered their Super Saiyan and remained 24/7 and that is why they ended up stronger. Out of universe it was plot based.

In universe Goku tells us why Super Saiyan Grade 2 and 3 are not reliable.

[ABED]

In universe Goku and Gohan trained better than Vegeta and Trunks, since Goku and Gohan mastered their Super Saiyan and remained 24/7 and that is why they ended up stronger. Out of universe it was plot based.

That was very character based storytelling as it shows how clever and smart Goku is as a martial artist that not only does he see the inherent flaws of the bulky form, he figures out a solution.

[super michael]

In universe Goku and Gohan trained better than Vegeta and Trunks, since Goku and Gohan mastered their Super Saiyan and remained 24/7 and that is why they ended up stronger. Out of universe it was plot based.

That was very character based storytelling as it shows how clever and smart Goku is as a martial artist that not only does he see the inherent flaws of the bulky form, he figures out a solution.

Exactly and thanks to Goku explaning the flaws and what is better, that shows us how smart Goku is. Then when we see them training together both strong, then we can think their gains will be big.

Do you understand my point why I am against Freeza and Tagoma training? Tagoma is stated to be Zarbon or Dodoria level, which is weak level. There is nothing special about Tagoma other than being Freeza punching bag. Tagoma can do all he wants but he won't hurt Freeza.

Goten and Trunks they are rivals so their training would be super effective.

[ABED]

In universe Goku and Gohan trained better than Vegeta and Trunks, since Goku and Gohan mastered their Super Saiyan and remained 24/7 and that is why they ended up stronger. Out of universe it was plot based.

That was very character based storytelling as it shows how clever and smart Goku is as a martial artist that not only does he see the inherent flaws of the bulky form, he figures out a solution.

Exactly and thanks to Goku explaning the flaws and what is better, that shows us how smart Goku is. Then when we see them training together both strong, then we can think their gains will be big.

Do you understand my point why I am against Freeza and Tagoma training? Tagoma is stated to be Zarbon or Dodoria level, which is weak level. There is nothing special about Tagoma other than being Freeza punching bag. Tagoma can do all he wants but he won't hurt Freeza.

Goten and Trunks they are rivals so their training would be super effective.

I get it but sorry I don't care because there are far bigger issues in that film than the training. The diminishing returns of using Freeza being the fundamental one.

Trunks and Goten not being used is a missed opportunity and would've been preferable to Muten Roshi not due to power levels but because his journey is over whereas Goten and Trunks are young and there are places to go with them.

[super michael]

That was very character based storytelling as it shows how clever and smart Goku is as a martial artist that not only does he see the inherent flaws of the bulky form, he figures out a solution.

Exactly and thanks to Goku explaning the flaws and what is better, that shows us how smart Goku is. Then when we see them training together both strong, then we can think their gains will be big.

Do you understand my point why I am against Freeza and Tagoma training? Tagoma is stated to be Zarbon or Dodoria level, which is weak level. There is nothing special about Tagoma other than being Freeza punching bag. Tagoma can do all he wants but he won't hurt Freeza.

Goten and Trunks they are rivals so their training would be super effective.

I get it but sorry I don't care because there are far bigger issues in that film than the training. The diminishing returns of using Freeza being the fundamental one.

Trunks and Goten not being used is a missed opportunity and would've been preferable to Muten Roshi not due to power levels but because his journey is over whereas Goten and Trunks are young and there are places to go with them.

True your right even Master Roshi said it in the 23rd Martial Art Tournament that he was leaving it to the younger generation, which is why Master Roshi didn't compete in the 23rd Martial Art Tournament. Basically Master Roshi has done everything he had to do in his life and now it is the younger generation to have their turn.

They claim that Goten and Trunks would be childish and immature, but that is a lame reason to be honest. Bulma acted all childish and immature to Freeza, yet there is no problem there. They try so hard to get rid of them for no reason.

Freeza doesn't look like he has reached his limit, meaning that he can still grow stronger or do you mean about Toriyama making the statement that Freeza power will never surpass Beerus no matter how much Freeza trains?

[Kataphrut]

Exactly and thanks to Goku explaning the flaws and what is better, that shows us how smart Goku is. Then when we see them training together both strong, then we can think their gains will be big.

Do you understand my point why I am against Freeza and Tagoma training? Tagoma is stated to be Zarbon or Dodoria level, which is weak level. There is nothing special about Tagoma other than being Freeza punching bag. Tagoma can do all he wants but he won't hurt Freeza.

Goten and Trunks they are rivals so their training would be super effective.

With Tagoma, wasn't the idea that Freeza was honing his energy by beating the guy to the brink of death but stopping just before going over the edge? It wasn't exactly a partnership of equals. Plus, I'd say that's a pretty creative way to have Freeza train, and fits with what he'd later do to refine the form with his image training prior to the ToP.

Either way, it's just one possible version of that story and you can take it or leave it- Toriyama didn't consider it worth elaborating how he did it, because it wasn't important.