Vegeta new form?

[Kinokima]

This topic is kinda overlapping with the other one, but I'd say that whatever Vegeta ends up with, it is probably likelier to end up complementing what Goku achieves rather than really challenging it, even though that's Vegeta's intention. And I'm interested to see in what way that might be the case.

One of the more persistent narrative moves Dragon Ball Super has tried to push - appearing very clearly in the resolution to the last two arcs - is that Goku and Vegeta need each other to achieve victory, come to grief and end up with bigger problems when they try to resolve things alone, and ought to learn to work together as a result (even if it only happens despite their natural inclination). That's 'the kind of story' being told, as I see it.

I don't think expecting a 'win' for Vegeta at Goku's expense is particularly realistic, given that consideration. Should we even want it?

It’s honestly the same complaints over and over. Certain people will never be satisfied unless Vegeta beats a main villain and if he doesn’t than anything else he accomplishes is nothing to these people. It is absolutely ridiculous

[TBMx]

This topic is kinda overlapping with the other one, but I'd say that whatever Vegeta ends up with, it is probably likelier to end up complementing what Goku achieves rather than really challenging it, even though that's Vegeta's intention. And I'm interested to see in what way that might be the case.

One of the more persistent narrative moves Dragon Ball Super has tried to push - appearing very clearly in the resolution to the last two arcs - is that Goku and Vegeta need each other to achieve victory, come to grief and end up with bigger problems when they try to resolve things alone, and ought to learn to work together as a result (even if it only happens despite their natural inclination). That's 'the kind of story' being told, as I see it.

I don't think expecting a 'win' for Vegeta at Goku's expense is particularly realistic, given that consideration. Should we even want it?

It’s honestly the same complaints over and over. Certain people will never be satisfied unless Vegeta beats a main villain and if he doesn’t than anything else he accomplishes is nothing to these people. It is absolutely ridiculous

Is it too much to ask for his decisions to make sense? Thats all I want.

[TheSaiyanGod]

This time they overplayed their hand when it comes to the teasing.

Vegeta rivalling Goku from an inferior mentor with 1/20th of the training is obviously not happening.

Its like with the Yardrat training. I was telling the people who were all hyped up, "Do you really expect him to rival Goku from doing stuff Goku did in like 1990? Come on now.

- Freeza overcame the power of Super Saiyan Blue with 4 months of training. Less time than Goku and no masters.
- Gohan reached God level in one day (or whatever) of training.
- 17 became "as strong as Goku / Vegeta" while taking care of an Island, without any training.

The character will be as strong as the plot requires it to be, so why is this "weaker master / less training time" thing even an argument here? And we now know that there are different levels of mastery for UI, and Goku is at the lowest. What is the point of wanting Vegeta to learn this technique just to continue with the game of catching Goku? Vegeta needing to train twice more to get inferior results is what do you think would be great for his character?

And I already said here, both Ultra Instinct and the new Beerus thing are classified as techniques of the Gods (in general). Angels are experts in using the UI because this is a technique that fits them, while GoDs are experts at something that fits them best. Whether this new technique rivals UI or not depends only on the plot, and at the moment it seems to me that this is supposed to be the answer to what Goku has.

[Gogeta SSJ Blue]

This topic is kinda overlapping with the other one, but I'd say that whatever Vegeta ends up with, it is probably likelier to end up complementing what Goku achieves rather than really challenging it, even though that's Vegeta's intention. And I'm interested to see in what way that might be the case.

One of the more persistent narrative moves Dragon Ball Super has tried to push - appearing very clearly in the resolution to the last two arcs - is that Goku and Vegeta need each other to achieve victory, come to grief and end up with bigger problems when they try to resolve things alone, and ought to learn to work together as a result (even if it only happens despite their natural inclination). That's 'the kind of story' being told, as I see it.

I don't think expecting a 'win' for Vegeta at Goku's expense is particularly realistic, given that consideration. Should we even want it?

It’s honestly the same complaints over and over. Certain people will never be satisfied unless Vegeta beats a main villain and if he doesn’t than anything else he accomplishes is nothing to these people. It is absolutely ridiculous

Then you clearly are not talking about me, because this is my first thread about Vegeta as I am not myself a Vegeta fan, but more an interested person about seeing this new form that he will attain now instead of going the UI route that Goku followed way earlier.

I am not complaining in any way but only curious about it.

I just want to simply know how much will he accomplish in order for him to at least close a little more the existent gap in power between him and Goku.

What I basically want is for him to be at least on par as the "assumed" rival of Goku!

I seriously don't care if he ever surpasses or not UI Goku at all...

[Kinokima]

This topic is kinda overlapping with the other one, but I'd say that whatever Vegeta ends up with, it is probably likelier to end up complementing what Goku achieves rather than really challenging it, even though that's Vegeta's intention. And I'm interested to see in what way that might be the case.

One of the more persistent narrative moves Dragon Ball Super has tried to push - appearing very clearly in the resolution to the last two arcs - is that Goku and Vegeta need each other to achieve victory, come to grief and end up with bigger problems when they try to resolve things alone, and ought to learn to work together as a result (even if it only happens despite their natural inclination). That's 'the kind of story' being told, as I see it.

I don't think expecting a 'win' for Vegeta at Goku's expense is particularly realistic, given that consideration. Should we even want it?

It’s honestly the same complaints over and over. Certain people will never be satisfied unless Vegeta beats a main villain and if he doesn’t than anything else he accomplishes is nothing to these people. It is absolutely ridiculous

Then you clearly are not talking about me, because this is my first thread about Vegeta as I am not myself a Vegeta fan, but more an interested person about seeing this new form that he will attain now instead of going the UI route that Goku followed way earlier.

I am not complaining in any way but only curious about it.

I just want to simply know how much will he accomplish in order for him to at least close a little more the existent gap in power between him and Goku.

What I basically want is for him to be at least on par as the "assumed" rival of Goku!

I seriously don't care if he ever surpasses or not UI Goku at all...

Then my comment wasn’t directed at you but regardless of your intentions this thread and now 2 others (and even a bit of the main thread) have turned into complaints about Vegeta not getting UI and saying this new ability will be worthless before we even know what it is.

[Gogeta SSJ Blue]

It’s honestly the same complaints over and over. Certain people will never be satisfied unless Vegeta beats a main villain and if he doesn’t than anything else he accomplishes is nothing to these people. It is absolutely ridiculous

Then you clearly are not talking about me, because this is my first thread about Vegeta as I am not myself a Vegeta fan, but more an interested person about seeing this new form that he will attain now instead of going the UI route that Goku followed way earlier.

I am not complaining in any way but only curious about it.

I just want to simply know how much will he accomplish in order for him to at least close a little more the existent gap in power between him and Goku.

What I basically want is for him to be at least on par as the "assumed" rival of Goku!

I seriously don't care if he ever surpasses or not UI Goku at all...

Then my comment wasn’t directed at you but regardless of your intentions this thread and now 2 others (and even a bit of the main thread) have turned into complaints about Vegeta not getting UI and saying this new ability will be worthless before we even know what it is.

Ok, fine!

No problem at all.

I know what you are saying, but you will have to understand that people might just be really excited about this new manga chapter and everything about what it revolves around too.

Patience is simply the best thing we can have right now!

[TBMx]

This time they overplayed their hand when it comes to the teasing.

Vegeta rivalling Goku from an inferior mentor with 1/20th of the training is obviously not happening.

Its like with the Yardrat training. I was telling the people who were all hyped up, "Do you really expect him to rival Goku from doing stuff Goku did in like 1990? Come on now.

- Freeza overcame the power of Super Saiyan Blue with 4 months of training. Less time than Goku and no masters.
- Gohan reached God level in one day (or whatever) of training.
- 17 became "as strong as Goku / Vegeta" while taking care of an Island, without any training.

The character will be as strong as the plot requires it to be, so why is this "weaker master / less training time" thing even an argument here?

Because it makes Vegeta's decision nonsensical. If Vegeta knows its an anything goes setting and he can surpass Goku by doing anything then why even ask Beerus? Just train himself. Magically it will happen. Anything goes.

If he doesn't know , then he wouldnt go to a being thats vastly weaker than Goku's mentor and a worse teacher. Seeing how he expects Vegeta to just watch and steal. And by his own words doesn't teach anybody. And to cap it all off he has to do it in a small fraction of the time Goku had to learn UI.

He wouldn't consciously go for that.

More fundamentally, how does it even make sense that he overthinks in battle if he moves at light speed. Electricity across nerves is slower than light last I checked. Whats in his skull then? just beams of light? Are there wormholes in his brain? Thats why empty mind stopped being a point past Goku vs King CHappa. He could already do it back then.

How come Majin Vegeta wasn't missing against Goku if he overthinks so much it limits his speed?

You're just not supposed to think about anything. Why anybody does anything. There's a point at which story itself breaks down you know.

[Matches Malone]

I like this direction, as there's no need to have both main characters be copies of one another. It also means we can have more interesting team ups with them, as each can make up what the other lacks. The ending of the Moro arc was great for this very reason, Vegeta lacked the physical power to fight Moro, which Goku provided, while Goku lacked the techniques, which Vegeta provided. This isn't about one being stronger or better than the other, rather making them equals in interesting and most importantly, different ways.

[Ziegander]

So, Angels are experts with Ultra Instinct, which, I mean, at this point you'd think has to still be superior to whatever techniques Beerus is talking about, right? It's implied that Beerus is an expert in some other godly technique, but Beerus has never held a candle to Whis in a straight up fight, he can't even compete, so whatever he's got to offer Vegeta, don't expect it to boost him anywhere near MUI Goku's level and if it does we're in complete retcon territory.

I do not agree with this. Goku has UI but he is not even close to Whis, both in terms of the power and mastery of the Ultra Instinct. In this case it's not about the power of the technique, Angels are just on a totally different level.

Also, according to Beerus, this is a technique of the Gods just like the UI, it just so happens that Angels in particular are experts in using Ultra Instinct because it best fits with them (a "gentle to the heart" technique) while GoDs use something more suited to their style. Essentially, the level of the technique will depend on the user, but Beerus seems to imply that the ones used by GoDs can rival the UI

The reason I said if it rivals UI in any way, that it will be a retcon is because we've seen Beerus and Whis "fight." By that I mean, we've seen Whis training Beerus to fight, but even when not in a training situation, Whis effortlessly neutralizes Beerus like a mother cat might her kitten. If Beerus has been holding back all this time, keeping his own secret God of Destruction fighting technique in reserve because he doesn't want to hurt Whis or because using it wouldn't help him learn Ultra Instinct, then we're in full retcon territory. That's fine, actually. It has never been stated that Whis has been specifically training Beerus to master Ultra Instinct, and they could go that route, but it would be a retcon nonetheless.

Otherwise, if Beerus has a technique that could allow him to fight back against Whis as an equal, why wouldn't he have used it by now? The Captain Marvel trope doesn't fly here.

[Kinokima]

So, Angels are experts with Ultra Instinct, which, I mean, at this point you'd think has to still be superior to whatever techniques Beerus is talking about, right? It's implied that Beerus is an expert in some other godly technique, but Beerus has never held a candle to Whis in a straight up fight, he can't even compete, so whatever he's got to offer Vegeta, don't expect it to boost him anywhere near MUI Goku's level and if it does we're in complete retcon territory.

I do not agree with this. Goku has UI but he is not even close to Whis, both in terms of the power and mastery of the Ultra Instinct. In this case it's not about the power of the technique, Angels are just on a totally different level.

Also, according to Beerus, this is a technique of the Gods just like the UI, it just so happens that Angels in particular are experts in using Ultra Instinct because it best fits with them (a "gentle to the heart" technique) while GoDs use something more suited to their style. Essentially, the level of the technique will depend on the user, but Beerus seems to imply that the ones used by GoDs can rival the UI

The reason I said if it rivals UI in any way, that it will be a retcon is because we've seen Beerus and Whis "fight." By that I mean, we've seen Whis training Beerus to fight, but even when not in a training situation, Whis effortlessly neutralizes Beerus like a mother cat might her kitten. If Beerus has been holding back all this time, keeping his own secret God of Destruction fighting technique in reserve because he doesn't want to hurt Whis or because using it wouldn't help him learn Ultra Instinct, then we're in full retcon territory. That's fine, actually. It has never been stated that Whis has been specifically training Beerus to master Ultra Instinct, and they could go that route, but it would be a retcon nonetheless.

Otherwise, if Beerus has a technique that could allow him to fight back against Whis as an equal, why wouldn't he have used it by now? The Captain Marvel trope doesn't fly here.

I mean Goku is no match for Whis with Ultra Instinct either. Whis doesn’t just know Ultra Instinct but the most powerful level of it

This technique could rival UI for a time but maybe not be enough to reach Whis’s level true enough. But maybe Goku will never reach that level either. Though I assume reaching Whis’ level is the eventual goal.

[TBMx]

I like this direction, as there's no need to have both main characters be copies of one another. It also means we can have more interesting team ups with them, as each can make up what the other lacks. The ending of the Moro arc was great for this very reason, Vegeta lacked the physical power to fight Moro, which Goku provided, while Goku lacked the techniques, which Vegeta provided. This isn't about one being stronger or better than the other, rather making them equals in interesting and most importantly, different ways.

I hated that.

Cos Goku got all the flashy choreography we all watch this for, while Vegeta just punched the ground.

77% of God Toppo vs Vegeta, both characters are standing still. They arent moving.

Dragonball is about exciting action. Vegeta's technique sucks if it doesn't lead to that.

Goku being the flashy one while Vegeta's the utility one isn't going to work for me.

[TheSaiyanGod]

The reason I said if it rivals UI in any way, that it will be a retcon is because we've seen Beerus and Whis "fight." By that I mean, we've seen Whis training Beerus to fight, but even when not in a training situation, Whis effortlessly neutralizes Beerus like a mother cat might her kitten. If Beerus has been holding back all this time, keeping his own secret God of Destruction fighting technique in reserve because he doesn't want to hurt Whis or because using it wouldn't help him learn Ultra Instinct, then we're in full retcon territory. That's fine, actually. It has never been stated that Whis has been specifically training Beerus to master Ultra Instinct, and they could go that route, but it would be a retcon nonetheless.

Otherwise, if Beerus has a technique that could allow him to fight back against Whis as an equal, why wouldn't he have used it by now? The Captain Marvel trope doesn't fly here.

As I said, this has to do with the level of Beerus and Whis and not with the level of the technique. Whatever Beerus possessed would always be inferior to what Whis has, it is the same case with Goku who uses the same technique as the angels but is not remotely close to their level.

Considering only the techniques (regardless of the user level), Beerus seems to imply that the technique in which GoDs are experts can rival the UI. But in relation to that yes, you can argue that it is a retcon because in ToP Whis it states that the UI was the ultimate technique and that seems to have been changed. Anyway, the concept of other Godly techniques looks interesting

[TBMx]

Yeah, its a simple question. If what Beerus says is true, why has no god of destruction ever surpassed their own angel?

I don't like how easy this technique or form is being given to Vegeta. Watch and steal? That's not going to feel prestigious at all. Comes across like any Z fighter could have done it.

[Jiren The Alpha]

Yeah, its a simple question. If what Beerus says is true, why has no god of destruction ever surpassed their own angel?

I don't like how easy this technique or form is being given to Vegeta. Watch and steal? That's not going to feel prestigious at all. Comes across like any Z fighter could have done it.

Watch and steal is another word for "ok i well train you", Beerus is just being a tsundere.

[TBMx]

Yeah, its a simple question. If what Beerus says is true, why has no god of destruction ever surpassed their own angel?

I don't like how easy this technique or form is being given to Vegeta. Watch and steal? That's not going to feel prestigious at all. Comes across like any Z fighter could have done it.

Watch and steal is another word for "ok i well train you", Beerus is just being a tsundere.

Unless it takes years as well and is beyond difficult, it's still going to be cheap and devalued.

We went from Vegeta near crippling himself in 400x gravity for SS1 and 2 to this.

If its so good, it can rival MUI, he shouldn't even achieve it in this arc, because a form is only as interesting as what goes into earning it and the journey it creates. Otherwise its just a pallete swap thats just gonna get a "That looks cool I guess" reaction out of the audience.

[Kinokima]

The reason I said if it rivals UI in any way, that it will be a retcon is because we've seen Beerus and Whis "fight." By that I mean, we've seen Whis training Beerus to fight, but even when not in a training situation, Whis effortlessly neutralizes Beerus like a mother cat might her kitten. If Beerus has been holding back all this time, keeping his own secret God of Destruction fighting technique in reserve because he doesn't want to hurt Whis or because using it wouldn't help him learn Ultra Instinct, then we're in full retcon territory. That's fine, actually. It has never been stated that Whis has been specifically training Beerus to master Ultra Instinct, and they could go that route, but it would be a retcon nonetheless.

Otherwise, if Beerus has a technique that could allow him to fight back against Whis as an equal, why wouldn't he have used it by now? The Captain Marvel trope doesn't fly here.

As I said, this has to do with the level of Beerus and Whis and not with the level of the technique. Whatever Beerus possessed would always be inferior to what Whis has, it is the same case with Goku who uses the same technique as the angels but is not remotely close to their level.

Considering only the techniques (regardless of the user level), Beerus seems to imply that the technique in which GoDs are experts can rival the UI. But in relation to that yes, you can argue that it is a retcon because in ToP Whis it states that the UI was the ultimate technique and that seems to have been changed. Anyway, the concept of other Godly techniques looks interesting

UI as the ultimate form has already been retconned. I guess they got away with it by saying there are multiple levels to UI, I will give them that

But they had to do something because now that Goku has Mastered UI (except I guess he hasn’t) he couldn’t beat every opponent because what would be the point


Bottom line is they always make the new power up sound all powerful, the ultimate goal until it’s not. It was the same thing with Super Saiyan back in the day.

[Kinokima]

Yeah, its a simple question. If what Beerus says is true, why has no god of destruction ever surpassed their own angel?

I don't like how easy this technique or form is being given to Vegeta. Watch and steal? That's not going to feel prestigious at all. Comes across like any Z fighter could have done it.

Watch and steal is another word for "ok i well train you", Beerus is just being a tsundere.

Unless it takes years as well and is beyond difficult, it's still going to be cheap and devalued.

We went from Vegeta near crippling himself in 400x gravity for SS1 and 2 to this.

If its so good, it can rival MUI, he shouldn't even achieve it in this arc, because a form is only as interesting as what goes into earning it and the journey it creates. Otherwise its just a pallete swap thats just gonna get a "That looks cool I guess" reaction out of the audience.

Goku literally got UI in one arc in the TOP. It didn’t come from years of training or struggles lol. There was no journey and then Goku completely mastered it literally an arc later after a couple months training with Merus.


Most of the training with Whis prior was about SSB not about UI.

[TBMx]

Watch and steal is another word for "ok i well train you", Beerus is just being a tsundere.

Unless it takes years as well and is beyond difficult, it's still going to be cheap and devalued.

We went from Vegeta near crippling himself in 400x gravity for SS1 and 2 to this.

If its so good, it can rival MUI, he shouldn't even achieve it in this arc, because a form is only as interesting as what goes into earning it and the journey it creates. Otherwise its just a pallete swap thats just gonna get a "That looks cool I guess" reaction out of the audience.

Goku literally got UI in one arc in the TOP. It didn’t come from years of training or struggles lol. There was no journey and then Goku completely mastered it literally an arc later after a couple months training with Merus.


Most of the training with Whis prior was about SSB not about UI.

UI was portrayed as the culimination of the lifetime of Goku's teachings, from Roshi's to Whis'. So it was always going to feel valuable and prestigious even if the transformation itself was quick. Vegeta doesn't have that.

[Kinokima]

Unless it takes years as well and is beyond difficult, it's still going to be cheap and devalued.

We went from Vegeta near crippling himself in 400x gravity for SS1 and 2 to this.

If its so good, it can rival MUI, he shouldn't even achieve it in this arc, because a form is only as interesting as what goes into earning it and the journey it creates. Otherwise its just a pallete swap thats just gonna get a "That looks cool I guess" reaction out of the audience.

Goku literally got UI in one arc in the TOP. It didn’t come from years of training or struggles lol. There was no journey and then Goku completely mastered it literally an arc later after a couple months training with Merus.


Most of the training with Whis prior was about SSB not about UI.

UI was portrayed as the culimination of the lifetime of Goku's teachings, from Roshi's to Whis'. So it was always going to feel valuable and prestigious even if the transformation itself was quick. Vegeta doesn't have that.

Again it was ONE scene. Sure it was a very nice moment and certainly much better than what the anime did but there was no true journey or struggle to specifically get UI. They just built on previous history Goku had which they can literally do with any new thing Goku learns. I am not saying it was a bad moment but you are overemphasizing it to downgrade Vegeta.

Vegeta’s journey as a character has never been about him as martial artists anyways. His journey has been about how he has changed as a character and there were plenty instances of that in the last arc.

[TBMx]

Goku literally got UI in one arc in the TOP. It didn’t come from years of training or struggles lol. There was no journey and then Goku completely mastered it literally an arc later after a couple months training with Merus.


Most of the training with Whis prior was about SSB not about UI.

UI was portrayed as the culimination of the lifetime of Goku's teachings, from Roshi's to Whis'. So it was always going to feel valuable and prestigious even if the transformation itself was quick. Vegeta doesn't have that.

Again it was ONE scene. Sure it was a very nice moment and certainly better than what the anime did but there was no true journey or struggle to specifically get UI. They just built on previous history Goku had. I am not saying it was a bad moment but you are overemphasizing it to downgrade Vegeta.

Vegeta’s journey as a character has never been about him as martial artists anyways. His journey has been about how he has changed as a character and there were plenty instances of that in the last arc.

The same last arc where he denied he changed at all and said he was destined for hell cos villain?

Vegeta achieving a rival form to MUI this arc devalues MUI too, when its already been devalued by Whis from being "Unbeatable" (says Merus) to "Just the beginning".

For Vegeta to achieve a form with prestige as well as protect that of UI, he needs to put the years in and almost kill himself to achieve this shit. Anything less is a handwave.