The Beerus Thread

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The Beerus Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Tue Feb 02, 2021 6:11 pm

Beerus. Our beloved feline Hakaishin, the first and most influential new character of the Super era (though he technically debuted in a Z movie). I still love the guy, everything from his Egyptian pantheon-inspired design to his quirky personality. Yet, for such an important figure, it feels as though he's been increasingly fading into the background.

I mainly wanted to focus on Beerus's motivation decay over the course of the franchise, but I seemed to fall down a bottomless rabbit hole that has lead to this thread being far, far too long for a TL;DR to accurately cover, hence why I've just decided to call it "The Beerus Thread".

It's almost easy to forget that in his debut movie/arc, his primary motivation for coming to Earth was to find a worthy rival in the form of the Super Saiyan God after receiving a clairvoyant vision in a dream. After some dithering with the Dragon Balls to find whether or not this legend even existed, Beerus finally met his match in Goku, who achieved the legendary form with the help of his friends. Except... not really. While Super Saiyan God Goku gave Beerus an entertaining scrap, it's established towards the end of their duel that in reality, Beerus had still been holding back most of his power. Goku was nowhere near close to truly challenging him.

While you would think that Beerus would still be hankering for more worthy challengers, especially with the wellspring of mighty warriors who subsequently pop up throughout the Super era, this aspect of his characterisation has all but vanished, among others. Let's analyse what exactly happened.
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Battle of Gods

First off, let's analyse Beerus's initial characterisation in Battle of Gods. His character is established excellently throughout the film, but several aspects of his persona have either been forgotten, ignored or "Flanderised" in later material.

Part of what made Beerus so refreshing was the fact that he wasn't a one-dimensional Dragon Ball Z supervillain by any means. In fact, he's downright pleasant for most of the film -- pompous, entitled and ill-tempered when provoked, granted, but his lighthearted quirks and overall chill demeanour counterbalance his foreboding moniker as the God of Destruction, making him an unlikely perfect fit for the established cast. While many Dragon Ball villains eventually reform, few could be imagined dancing merrily alongside the Dragon Team at a birthday party in their debut appearances. While he threatens to destroy Earth for the pettiest of slights, he has a worldly, erudite wisdom and curiosity that gives way to his growing compassion for Earth, inspiring him to spare it in the end. While he may be an unrepentant destroyer, he destroys not out of any particular malice, but out of a divine imperative to maintain cosmic balance. "Before creation must come destruction." In true godly fashion, he's inscrutable to the heroes' simplistic moral binaries, a genuine neutral player.

In Battle of Gods, Beerus has many traits that reflect typical Dragon Ball hero sensibilities, making him a foil to Goku and the others. Like them, he has a great love for food (though with slightly more haute cuisine tastes), he enjoys good company, has a selfish, irresponsible streak, but above all, he has a healthy appetite for martial competition. Beerus, unlike many previous gods, is a fighter through and through, and has grown bored from a lack of challenge in life, causing him to travel halfway across the universe just for a small glimmer of hope that he can finally get one.

If we consider the premise that Battle of Gods was intended to be a one-off celebration of the franchise, which by all accounts it seemed to be, Beerus can be seen as an effective post-final boss after Majin Buu, slotting neatly in the timeframe between Kid Buu's defeat and the distant finale at the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai. The tone of the film is very fitting. Beerus represents a larger-than-ever threat but he's never shown destroying anything or seriously harming, let alone killing, anyone. He reminds Goku of Kame-Sen'nin's first lesson: there will always be somebody stronger out there, by revealing the sheer scale of power difference not just between a Hakaishin and a Super Saiyan God, but between Goku and the entire multiverse of other gods, angels and powerful mortals that must be out there. Before Beerus and Whis take their leave, Bulma invites them to their next party, but after arriving back on his planet, Beerus appears to go back to bed for three years, indicating that his role has ended for the time being.
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Resurrection 'F'; or, How I Learned to Stop Fighting and Love the Dessert

However, the runaway success of Battle of Gods wasn't exactly impossible to predict considering the franchise's pedigree as a pop cultural milestone and, naturally, the show must go on. But what would become of Beerus?

What transpired past Battle of Gods for Beerus's character and role in the ongoing narrative has already been talked to death, but to summarise, Beerus's very presence poses quite a large problem for retaining a sense of stakes and tension, as his enormous power would allow him to dismantle almost any threat Goku and Vegeta face with minimal effort. This could first be felt in Resurrection 'F', where Beerus and Whis return to Earth during Goku and Vegeta's rematch against Freeza.

This is where we get to a sumptuous strawberry-flavoured elephant in the room, Beerus's obsession with Earth cuisine. What started as just one of many personality traits ascribed to Beerus quickly became the focal point of his entire character. His love for food is used as the token excuse as to why he doesn't get involved with the film's climactic showdown as Bulma presents him an enormous sundae to lure him back to Earth. He, or more pertinently Whis (more on that later), is kept around on the sidelines as a convenient plot device to give Goku and Vegeta a timey-wimey "do-over" when they inevitably screw up. While the film already struggled to build tension effectively to begin with, as we had to suspend our disbelief that Freeza of all people could truly pose a threat to two Super Saiyan Gods, Beerus and Whis's presence killed any trace of it dead. In the meantime, Beerus and Whis stand around making unfunny observations at how amazing Bulma's strawberry sundae is. It does look pretty damn tasty, to be fair.

While this isn't exactly inconsistent with Beerus's prior portrayal, it is rather questionable that he's suddenly utterly disinterested in engaging with the action going on right in front of him. Earlier in the film, he treats Goku and Vegeta's training under Whis as a mild irritation to his beauty sleep, and seems a little threatened by the prospect that they may be trying to overthrow him as God of Destruction. While it stands to reason that he probably witness them achieve the form during their training, Goku and Vegeta showcasing a brand new transformation orders of magnitude stronger than Super Saiyan God doesn't spark any interest, nor does the revelation that Freeza has somehow reached a comparable level without any godly supervision. To paraphrase a legendary quote from one of my favourite video games ever, Disco Elysium: "The fuck does Beerus care?" *Beerus doesn't care*

There's no point in sugarcoating it (there's some irony there), Beerus is a joke in this movie. This isn't inherently bad or anything, though I will argue that the limited material overstays its welcome already, but that's how it is.

This set a precedent for how Beerus would be characterised throughout most of Super, to his own detriment. I will admit, I do enjoy some of Beerus and Whis's "food moments" -- like a good cookery show, they help to get the stomach rumbling. However, both as a joke and a device to keep Beerus out of the action, it's been done to death.
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Dragon Ball Super: The Dark Side... and the Light

Let's reverse gear for a moment and bring it back to the first two arcs of Super which adapted the two Toriyama-penned Z movies. Both Toei's anime and Toyotaro's manga give a jarringly different establishing moment for Beerus compared to Battle of Gods -- instead of a funny scene of him being awoken by his alarm bombs, we're introduced to him sampling some food from a random planet before casually destroying half of it with a mere tap of his finger, simply because the alien palate isn't quite to his taste.

Arguably, this was a side to Beerus that should've been established in his debut movie. Beerus's status as the destroyer of worlds is mostly an informed atribute in the films when you look at it, though his sheer strength which allows him to flick away a Super Saiyan 3 backs up his fearsome reputation. Seeing as it's present in both versions of Super, it may have been a scene Toriyama left on the cutting room floor that he always intended to show. Who can say?

The anime presses the more malevolent angle harder than either the film or the manga. Aside from the planet-destroying scene and some extra relevant details, the manga is for the most part a faithful, hassle-free recap of the Battle of Gods movie (though with some notable twists that directly foreshadow later events). Anime Beerus, in contrast, is a prick. He comes across as much more sadistic, petty and unhinged than we've ever known him up to this point. As widely detested as the movie-adapted arcs may be, a part of me appreciates this notably different angle as we truly see the murkier side to destroyer work and Beerus's personality flaws, though it does seriously detract from Beerus's likeable qualities that made him a fan favourite in the first place. There did seem to be a somewhat noble intention here, though. Rather than a fully-formed Beerus right out the gate, this Beerus will have a slower arc of character development over the course of Dragon Ball Super. His initial motivation for coming to Earth is the same, but this Beerus is established as more violent, unruly and unpredictable. Beerus's more malignant personality means that he'll have more opportunities to believably dip out of the action out of sheer pettiness and spite, possibly creating more interesting conflict with the heroes, while also participating in conflicts that interest him...

...At least, in theory.

In reality, Beerus doesn't really have a clear arc in Super. He starts off as a giant asshole, then he just kinda morphs back into his lazy, harmless movie self, doing the same old gags and leaving the action with unsatisfactory explanations. In the Future Trunks arc, he abstains from the action mainly out of disapproval of all the time travel shenanigans. While he memorably steps in to Hakai Present Zamasu during his investigation, he flatly refuses to travel to the alternate future timeline to confront Goku Black directly, citing that he is forbidden from doing so as a Hakaishin. This doesn't stop Gowasu and Shin from travelling to said alternate timeline later, though. Funny, that.

Later non-tournament adventures such as Dragon Ball Super: Broly and the recently concluded Galactic Patrol Prisoner arc have cursorily involved Beerus, only to once again have him skimp out on any action without clear explanation, reducing him to a glorified cameo role. In Super: Broly, he stays behind at Bulma's place to babysit Bra out of sheer laziness, not even a token food gag. He just flat-out can't be bothered, even though Broly represents a greater rival than a Super Saiyan God ever could. When Moro's gang of convicts rampage across the galaxy, Beerus literally sits there fishing in a pond, bristling at the suggestion that he should intervene and justifying that Moro has done him a favour by destroying on his behalf. When he finally arrives on Earth, he decides to once again sit back to witness Goku's growth, which is fair enough, but he doesn't acknowledge Moro at all. Only after Moro pulls a 180 on the situation by merging with the Earth itself does Beerus finally consider acting, though not before he is suddenly summoned back to Zeno's Palace, at which point he yeets himself outta there.

That said, there are outlying examples of Beerus taking action in both the anime and manga. In a filler anime episode, he has a slapstick rematch against Goku while disguised as Monaka, and Whis even states that Beerus has been eagerly awaiting the chance to fight after Champa's tournament, though this is never brought up again. In another, he is summoned to Earth by Bulma as a last resort to defeat an amok Arale Norimaki, and demonstrates the unbelievable extent of his power by destroying the ghost of Dr. Masahirito, confirming that even the dead are not safe.

Toyotaro has consistently done more to keep Beerus in the loop, however. Beerus has a memorable rematch against Vegeta after the Future Trunks arc, in which he proves to still be leagues above the Saiyans even with their fancy god power ups. When Vegeta scores a good hit on him, Beerus utterly demolishes him on the spot. This is the good stuff, more of this please. Later, Toyotaro brings Beerus back to the ring in an even bigger way by changing the Zen Exhibition Match into a mini battle royale between all twelve Hakaishin. Whereas Anime Beerus's place on the godly tier list is left ambiguous, with hints that he may be one of the weaker ones due to having lost an arm wrestle with Belmod, the manga instead showcases that Beerus is definitely among the upper echelons of power even among his own destroyer kin. Using a pseudo-Ultra Instinct, he manages to survive a gauntlet as the other Hakaishin gang up on him, with only Quitela and Belmod lasting to the end alongside him before the match is prematurely called off by Daishinkan.

However, there's a disappointing trend with most of these examples. Rather than acting of his own accord and desire, Beerus usually has to be pressed into action, either by someone else or the situation spiralling out of control until he can no longer excuse his own inaction. He will no longer fight simply for the sake of it. In fact, he seems to detest fighting. It leads to the unflattering interpretation that Beerus is, well... a pussy. Figuratively and literally. Alas, this seems to be a natural evolution of his current role as the non-action bystander.
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The Whis Effect

Finally, we get to his loyal attendant Whis. What I've intentionally left unmentioned until this point is that Beerus's role has for the last few years been treated as little more than Whis's purse-puppy. Whis has all but totally eclipsed Beerus in narrative relevance, increasingly demoting Beerus to a comic relief sidekick, humiliated at every turn. In most occasions where Beerus has kept out of the action, Whis has usually taken a much more active role. There are several reasons for this:
  • Whis simply represents a higher milestone of power, which was firmly established all the way back in Battle of Gods. On a point-based scale deciding the characters' threat levels relative to Goku, Toriyama infamously rated Whis as a 15 compared to Beerus's measly 10.
  • Whis's borderline reality warping powers make him a far more useful asset and they have proven vital to the heroes' success numerous times.
  • In spite of his non-interference rule as an Angel, Whis is consistently the more active, dependable character that the heroes can always call on to help.
  • Whis is portrayed as far more intelligent and wise than Beerus. Although he often gets things wrong, his advice is always heeded.
  • Whis is considered more of a mentor figure to Goku and Vegeta, teaching them the principles of god ki and Ultra Instinct, with the latter ability being Goku's ultimate aim as a martial artist.
There you have it. Whis is stronger, smarter, more dependable, a better martial artist, a better mentor, a better friend to the good guys, he has more superpowers... So what's the point of Beerus, again?

I'd argue that diametrically making Whis superior to Beerus in every way has resulted in, and I don't use this term lightly, a character assassination of Beerus. Beerus, the guy who was originally the real star of the show. While Whis has always been stronger, Beerus has always been the more immediate 'measuring stick' that Goku and Vegeta been working towards. Fans still clamour for that eventual serious rematch. As the goal posts seem to shift with each arc, it seems that Beerus is still a rung above the Saiyans. But even with Goku's mastery of Ultra Instinct, Beerus still doesn't seem especially interested. What's more galling is that Beerus has a perfect motivation for wanting to kick Goku's ass after he was humiliated by Zeno while Goku partied with the resurrected Merus.

Second, Beerus was never stupid. Silly and eccentric, sure, but never dumb. As shown in his debut movie, he has an eloquence to him, as he accurately observes that Goku is unsatisfied by Super Saiyan God. Going by that movie alone, Beerus appears to be interested in mentoring Goku himself, but he defers that role to Whis in the sequel and most of Super. However, on top of Whis upstaging him in intellect, subsequent reveals throughout Super have only served to undermine Beerus, making it all the more clear that he's not even remotely competent at his job compared to the other Hakaishin.

Now, I don't mean to come across as a party pooper here. Beerus can and has been great in "butt-monkey" roles throughout the series. Seeing the two Zenos riding him and Shin like horseys will always be hilarious. But I feel that it's been a bit of waste that he's been reduced solely to this when his character has more to offer. Above all, I wish he'd be more proactive in mentoring Goku and Vegeta rather than letting Whis do all the work. Funnily enough this leads me to...
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The Future

... the latest chapter, Chapter 68. We have hope, lads.

So, without spoiling too much, Beerus finally seems to get thrown a bone. A small bone, barely even a chunk of marrow, but it's something. After Goku spars with Whis, revealing that the power gap of Ultra Instinct between the two is still vast, Beerus reveals to Vegeta that there are indeed other paths to strength as a Hakaishin, and cheekily hints that he will give Vegeta a demonstration soon. This is a good sign that Beerus may finally pull his damn finger out and teach Vegeta "the Hakaishin way", in contrast to Goku going down the graceful angelic path with Whis. Considering Vegeta's personality and distaste for Ultra Instinct, this seems to be a natural path for him to take, but we'll have to wait and see how things will pan out.

So... damn, that went on way longer than I intended, but I hope it was worth the read.

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Re: The Beerus Thread

Post by batistabus » Tue Feb 02, 2021 11:18 pm

I really enjoyed reading this!

Beerus is a cat. He's not just an alien that looks like one. It informs his behavior. I try to keep that in mind.

(Compare this to Moro. Goats/Rams like to eat, climb things, and headbutt. Moro likes to eat, feels he is "above" others, and likes to fight. He's maybe symbolically goat-like, but he never outright acts like one, especially not for comedic effect. But while Beerus is a cat-man, Moro is really a goat-dragon-man, and Moro is meant to be much more sinister.)

While Beerus is lazy, he is also somewhat depressed. He hasn't had a real challenge besides Whis (who far outclasses him) for maybe millions of years. The prospect of the Super Saiyan God was fun for a moment, but it turned out to be a dud. Whis wants to get him out of bed, so he tempts him with the Saiyans, but they're still far below him. He's impressed at the Tournament of Power, but when Goku isn't able to tap into it again, he barely musters a smirk against Broly. It's not until Goku displays mastery of Migatte no Gokui that he gives full acknowledgement, and sees something in Vegeta that he can play with.

I really enjoy Beerus in the God of Destruction free-for-all. Aside from being an exciting fight, we get to see him bounce off all of the other gods. He nearly comes out on top, which makes him stand out even more among his peers. Part of his advantage was an imperfect Migatte no Gokui, but in retrospect, we now know that he has better mastery of another godly technique. Was he holding back by using that battle as practice?

I do like Whis, but I don't think he makes Beerus worse. I think they enhance each other.
Second, Beerus was never stupid. Silly and eccentric, sure, but never dumb. As shown in his debut movie, he has an eloquence to him, as he accurately observes that Goku is unsatisfied by Super Saiyan God. Going by that movie alone, Beerus appears to be interested in mentoring Goku himself, but he defers that role to Whis in the sequel and most of Super. However, on top of Whis upstaging him in intellect, subsequent reveals throughout Super have only served to undermine Beerus, making it all the more clear that he's not even remotely competent at his job compared to the other Hakaishin.
Beerus is kind of stupid. Vegeta is able to get away with quite a bit during Battle of Gods. I think Beerus as a bad God of Destruction is part of what makes him interesting, and it was always part of his character. But I agree that the tone around the character has shifted.

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Re: The Beerus Thread

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed Feb 03, 2021 2:30 am

Great thread. It's possible that Beerus does want a challenging fight, but only one that he knows he can win. Unlike Goku, he's unwilling to fight anyone who he thinks he might lose against.
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Re: The Beerus Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Feb 03, 2021 3:22 am

That scene where Beerus destroys a planet because they made "bad" food is so disturbing when you think about it, it's so dark.

If someone commits genocide because they believe they're doing the right thing, or they genuinely think it's justice or good, okay it's disturbing because it's still genocide, but at least there's some degree of mitigating factor.

But what's really disturbing is committing genocide for no reason, like Beerus does. He really exterminated the countless species of an entire planet just because he tasted bad food. That's insane when you think about it, and it really shows that both Beerus and the protagonists are NOT good, but neutral and borderline evil.

And the fact that there's an actual job revolving around exterminating species is disturbing too. And obviously it's also disturbing that no one ever points this out to Beerus, how destroying innocent lives because they can't cook is morally wrong on all levels... but then again people would have to care first. Despite Goku's claims of not being able to see innocent people get erased, he very clearly does not care about that planet that was literally cut in half by his cat friend.

See Super is actually very dark and disturbing when you think about it.
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Re: The Beerus Thread

Post by theherodjl » Wed Feb 03, 2021 7:10 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 3:22 am
That scene where Beerus destroys a planet because they made "bad" food is so disturbing when you think about it, it's so dark.

If someone commits genocide because they believe they're doing the right thing, or they genuinely think it's justice or good, okay it's disturbing because it's still genocide, but at least there's some degree of mitigating factor.

But what's really disturbing is committing genocide for no reason, like Beerus does. He really exterminated the countless species of an entire planet just because he tasted bad food. That's insane when you think about it, and it really shows that both Beerus and the protagonists are NOT good, but neutral and borderline evil.

And the fact that there's an actual job revolving around exterminating species is disturbing too. And obviously it's also disturbing that no one ever points this out to Beerus, how destroying innocent lives because they can't cook is morally wrong on all levels... but then again people would have to care first. Despite Goku's claims of not being able to see innocent people get erased, he very clearly does not care about that planet that was literally cut in half by his cat friend.

See Super is actually very dark and disturbing when you think about it.
Beerus is a God of Destruction though. It is his job to destroy worlds and entire species with it because he is cosmically-bound to do so. If Beerus chose not to do his job, Zeno would be more than willing to eradicate Beerus from existence and possibly U7 if the situation displeased him enough.
Ironically, by committing acts if destruction, Beerus may just be saving an entire universe from an all-powerful overlord and possibly a sadistic replacement as well.
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Re: The Beerus Thread

Post by Yuji » Wed Feb 03, 2021 7:11 am

I'm glad you've made this thread so I didn't have to be the one to make it. I've gone over a few times in the Super manga thread about how I'm dissatisfied with the direction his character has taken, but you've put it more eloquently than I could. While I still think his anime portrayal is far off the mark, I do prefer how he has gradually mellowed out and outwardly demonstrated respect in a dignified manner, in comparison to the manga's perpetually grouchy, infantile Beerus who acts like a typical anime tsundere. Even so, both portrayals fall short of the original movie Beerus, so I wonder how much Toriyama's influence goes into his character writing.

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Re: The Beerus Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Feb 03, 2021 7:28 am

theherodjl wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 7:10 am
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 3:22 am
That scene where Beerus destroys a planet because they made "bad" food is so disturbing when you think about it, it's so dark.

If someone commits genocide because they believe they're doing the right thing, or they genuinely think it's justice or good, okay it's disturbing because it's still genocide, but at least there's some degree of mitigating factor.

But what's really disturbing is committing genocide for no reason, like Beerus does. He really exterminated the countless species of an entire planet just because he tasted bad food. That's insane when you think about it, and it really shows that both Beerus and the protagonists are NOT good, but neutral and borderline evil.

And the fact that there's an actual job revolving around exterminating species is disturbing too. And obviously it's also disturbing that no one ever points this out to Beerus, how destroying innocent lives because they can't cook is morally wrong on all levels... but then again people would have to care first. Despite Goku's claims of not being able to see innocent people get erased, he very clearly does not care about that planet that was literally cut in half by his cat friend.

See Super is actually very dark and disturbing when you think about it.
Beerus is a God of Destruction though. It is his job to destroy worlds and entire species with it because he is cosmically-bound to do so. If Beerus chose not to do his job, Zeno would be more than willing to eradicate Beerus from existence and possibly U7 if the situation displeased him enough.
Ironically, by committing acts if destruction, Beerus may just be saving an entire universe from an all-powerful overlord and possibly a sadistic replacement as well.
What danger to the universe was he eliminating when he destroyed a species simply because they made bad food?

A Destroyer's job isn't to destroy stuff randomly, it's to destroy threats to the world of Gods and ningens. That's what separates a good Destroyer (like those of the 4 highest-ranking universes) from a bad Destroyer (like Beerus and Champa).

I can assure you, those mongrels who made bad food were not a threat to the world of Gods and ningens.
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Re: The Beerus Thread

Post by theherodjl » Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:35 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 7:28 am
What danger to the universe was he eliminating when he destroyed a species simply because they made bad food?

A Destroyer's job isn't to destroy stuff randomly, it's to destroy threats to the world of Gods and ningens. That's what separates a good Destroyer (like those of the 4 highest-ranking universes) from a bad Destroyer (like Beerus and Champa).

I can assure you, those mongrels who made bad food were not a threat to the world of Gods and ningens.
That's not what a destroyer's job is. The duty of a Hakaishin is described as the following.
As new planets are born, the God of Destruction destroys existing planets in order to maintain the balance of life in the universe.
A destroyer can choose to eliminate danger to mortals & deities if they so choose to. However, that isn't their job: they simply exist to destroy things so that new worlds & species can spring forth.
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Re: The Beerus Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:52 am

theherodjl wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:35 am
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 7:28 am
What danger to the universe was he eliminating when he destroyed a species simply because they made bad food?

A Destroyer's job isn't to destroy stuff randomly, it's to destroy threats to the world of Gods and ningens. That's what separates a good Destroyer (like those of the 4 highest-ranking universes) from a bad Destroyer (like Beerus and Champa).

I can assure you, those mongrels who made bad food were not a threat to the world of Gods and ningens.
That's not what a destroyer's job is. The duty of a Hakaishin is described as the following.
As new planets are born, the God of Destruction destroys existing planets in order to maintain the balance of life in the universe.
A destroyer can choose to eliminate danger to mortals & deities if they so choose to. However, that isn't their job: they simply exist to destroy things so that new worlds & species can spring forth.
What new species and worlds spring forth from cleaving a planet in half?

And your point is moot, since we know he did that just because the food is bad. I.e. if the food was good, he wouldn't have done that. So your argument is pointless.

"In order to maintain the balance of life in the universe."

That's literally what I'm saying, it's just using different words. If one ningen is too strong, the balance of life is upset with one ningen gaining too much strength and leaving everyone else in the dust, endangering their survival. So a Destroyer's job is to destroy that ningen or ningen species to maintain the balance.

That's why U7 is so low on the ningen level tier list. There's a select few ningen species that hold all the power, while everyone else is fodder.

It's not exactly a secret that Beerus is trash at his job, many characters note this, so I don't know why you want to defend him.
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Re: The Beerus Thread

Post by Jiren The Alpha » Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:45 am

Do you guys thing that Beerus and Bulla is gonna form a bond like Piccolo and Gohan?

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Re: The Beerus Thread

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed Feb 03, 2021 11:20 am

theherodjl wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 7:10 am
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 3:22 am
That scene where Beerus destroys a planet because they made "bad" food is so disturbing when you think about it, it's so dark.

If someone commits genocide because they believe they're doing the right thing, or they genuinely think it's justice or good, okay it's disturbing because it's still genocide, but at least there's some degree of mitigating factor.

But what's really disturbing is committing genocide for no reason, like Beerus does. He really exterminated the countless species of an entire planet just because he tasted bad food. That's insane when you think about it, and it really shows that both Beerus and the protagonists are NOT good, but neutral and borderline evil.

And the fact that there's an actual job revolving around exterminating species is disturbing too. And obviously it's also disturbing that no one ever points this out to Beerus, how destroying innocent lives because they can't cook is morally wrong on all levels... but then again people would have to care first. Despite Goku's claims of not being able to see innocent people get erased, he very clearly does not care about that planet that was literally cut in half by his cat friend.

See Super is actually very dark and disturbing when you think about it.
Beerus is a God of Destruction though. It is his job to destroy worlds and entire species with it because he is cosmically-bound to do so. If Beerus chose not to do his job, Zeno would be more than willing to eradicate Beerus from existence and possibly U7 if the situation displeased him enough.
Ironically, by committing acts if destruction, Beerus may just be saving an entire universe from an all-powerful overlord and possibly a sadistic replacement as well.
It's like in Marvel where Galactus has to be allowed to eat planets to survive, because without him around, Abraxas will show up and annihilate the multiverse.
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Re: The Beerus Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Wed Feb 03, 2021 12:14 pm

batistabus wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 11:18 pm
I really enjoyed reading this!

Beerus is a cat. He's not just an alien that looks like one. It informs his behavior. I try to keep that in mind.

(Compare this to Moro. Goats/Rams like to eat, climb things, and headbutt. Moro likes to eat, feels he is "above" others, and likes to fight. He's maybe symbolically goat-like, but he never outright acts like one, especially not for comedic effect. But while Beerus is a cat-man, Moro is really a goat-dragon-man, and Moro is meant to be much more sinister.)

While Beerus is lazy, he is also somewhat depressed. He hasn't had a real challenge besides Whis (who far outclasses him) for maybe millions of years. The prospect of the Super Saiyan God was fun for a moment, but it turned out to be a dud. Whis wants to get him out of bed, so he tempts him with the Saiyans, but they're still far below him. He's impressed at the Tournament of Power, but when Goku isn't able to tap into it again, he barely musters a smirk against Broly. It's not until Goku displays mastery of Migatte no Gokui that he gives full acknowledgement, and sees something in Vegeta that he can play with.

I really enjoy Beerus in the God of Destruction free-for-all. Aside from being an exciting fight, we get to see him bounce off all of the other gods. He nearly comes out on top, which makes him stand out even more among his peers. Part of his advantage was an imperfect Migatte no Gokui, but in retrospect, we now know that he has better mastery of another godly technique. Was he holding back by using that battle as practice?

I do like Whis, but I don't think he makes Beerus worse. I think they enhance each other.
Thank you very much!

I too like to equate characters to the animals their designs are inspired by. I actually think Moro's personality was quite accurate to a goat's, combined with the Satanic connotations, which was a major reason I warmed up to him. Goats have been known to destroy whole ecosystems because their collective hunger is so uncontrollable, which is similar to the devastating effect Moro's rampage has on the whole galaxy.

Beerus being depressed is an interesting interpretation, I hadn't considered that. I'd be down if they'd explore that angle with some degree of seriousness. Hopefully, him not-training Vegeta will give him a temporary reason to get out of bed in the morning.
Beerus is kind of stupid. Vegeta is able to get away with quite a bit during Battle of Gods. I think Beerus as a bad God of Destruction is part of what makes him interesting, and it was always part of his character. But I agree that the tone around the character has shifted.
Ehhh, I don't think he was stupid in his debut, I mean, if anything, his relatively lengthy tether compared to the majority of DB villains proves that he was fairly reasonable and well-mannered. His dialogue with Goku throughout their fight indicates that he's insightful and even wise when he wants to be. Most of his stupidity has been retroactively applied.

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Re: The Beerus Thread

Post by theherodjl » Wed Feb 03, 2021 2:42 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:52 am
What new species and worlds spring forth from cleaving a planet in half?

And your point is moot, since we know he did that just because the food is bad. I.e. if the food was good, he wouldn't have done that. So your argument is pointless.

"In order to maintain the balance of life in the universe."

That's literally what I'm saying, it's just using different words. If one ningen is too strong, the balance of life is upset with one ningen gaining too much strength and leaving everyone else in the dust, endangering their survival. So a Destroyer's job is to destroy that ningen or ningen species to maintain the balance.

That's why U7 is so low on the ningen level tier list. There's a select few ningen species that hold all the power, while everyone else is fodder.

It's not exactly a secret that Beerus is trash at his job, many characters note this, so I don't know why you want to defend him.
IIRC, Beerus said he'd only destroy half the planet for now but implied that he'll be back for the other half later.

The point is not moot. Beerus doesn't need a reason to destroy since his job is simply to destroy. Whether the food was good or not didn't matter since he probably planned on blowing up the planet anyways. The food just happened to give him a reason to not rush it's total destruction.

Beerus doesn't really give a fuck about mortals being strong since he can just erase them from existence since they're mortal. Someone like Jiren might be able to give Beerus serious trouble in a head-to-head fight but Beerus can simply Hakai him to dust if he felt like it.
It doesn't really matter anyways since Beerus leaves things like strong, rogue mortals to other beings to deal with since its not his job to take down a cocky fighter that intends to challenge the divinity. Beerus would only intervene if he knew that Shin was in danger since that concerns his own personal survival. Anything else...no.

Beerus' job is simple and he adheres to it's basic definition even if it does sometimes lead to carelessness on his part.
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Re: The Beerus Thread

Post by TobyS » Wed Feb 03, 2021 2:57 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 11:20 am
theherodjl wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 7:10 am
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 3:22 am
That scene where Beerus destroys a planet because they made "bad" food is so disturbing when you think about it, it's so dark.

If someone commits genocide because they believe they're doing the right thing, or they genuinely think it's justice or good, okay it's disturbing because it's still genocide, but at least there's some degree of mitigating factor.

But what's really disturbing is committing genocide for no reason, like Beerus does. He really exterminated the countless species of an entire planet just because he tasted bad food. That's insane when you think about it, and it really shows that both Beerus and the protagonists are NOT good, but neutral and borderline evil.

And the fact that there's an actual job revolving around exterminating species is disturbing too. And obviously it's also disturbing that no one ever points this out to Beerus, how destroying innocent lives because they can't cook is morally wrong on all levels... but then again people would have to care first. Despite Goku's claims of not being able to see innocent people get erased, he very clearly does not care about that planet that was literally cut in half by his cat friend.

See Super is actually very dark and disturbing when you think about it.
Beerus is a God of Destruction though. It is his job to destroy worlds and entire species with it because he is cosmically-bound to do so. If Beerus chose not to do his job, Zeno would be more than willing to eradicate Beerus from existence and possibly U7 if the situation displeased him enough.
Ironically, by committing acts if destruction, Beerus may just be saving an entire universe from an all-powerful overlord and possibly a sadistic replacement as well.
It's like in Marvel where Galactus has to be allowed to eat planets to survive, because without him around, Abraxas will show up and annihilate the multiverse.
Yeah the trouble is in Marvel this was hastily added to explain away Reed being a selfish bastard who didn't kill the genocide monster, even at the expense of earth, if it'd mean it'd save the rest of the galactic civilisations of him for all time.

So they retconned "oh he's actually cosmically necessary" when Reed was put on trial for not taking the shot.

There's three big differences for DB:

1. In DB the universe it is less like the real world, and Beerus role makes more sense in a more senseless universe. We don't need a Galactus IRL so why does the marvel universe? Whereas the DB universe is little a floating bauble and made on the whims of a crazy child/ren and Toriyama who by design and admittedly makes shit up as he goes along.
2. Also Beerus was introduced as this from the beginning.
3. Goku and Co. are total (loveable) bastards and not really heroes, so their letting him exist/not making it their lifes work to evacuate the worlds he attacks is not really 'deal breaking' for the series.

I think he visited the planet to destroy it, think of the food thing as them having a chance to save themselves, and if they have great cuisine and hospitality that does mean they have some abstract civilisational value, as weird as a measure that is.

Is the half a plant thing in the manga? Because that's silly because the other half can't live it's needlessly weird and petty and cruel.
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Re: The Beerus Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Feb 03, 2021 3:30 pm

Wasn't Beerus served poisoned food in his visit to that planet, in the beginning of Super? maybe that was only in the anime, or the manga. But I remember something like that. That sure deserves a hakai.


This is a really nice thread, I'll revisit it when I have more time.

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Re: The Beerus Thread

Post by Triggered Vegeta » Wed Feb 03, 2021 4:02 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 3:30 pm
Wasn't Beerus served poisoned food in his visit to that planet, in the beginning of Super? maybe that was only in the anime, or the manga. But I remember something like that. That sure deserves a hakai.


This is a really nice thread, I'll revisit it when I have more time.
Lol Yes. That was in the anime I believe. Putting his life in danger. They definitely deserved it imo.

Edit: I was wrong, all Beerus complains about was the grease. Didn't hear anything about poison. I could've swore I heard they were trying to poison him. The video cleared things up.
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Re: The Beerus Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Feb 03, 2021 4:07 pm

Beerus literally told Whis the reason why he destroyed that world.

Greasy food.

That's it. He committed genocide because he was served greasy food, and proclaimed he did the galaxy a favour by ridding it of greasy food.

No nonsense about "balance of life" or anything like that. He destroyed all of them (children too) because he was served greasy food.

I can't even imagine the mental gymnastics someone would have to do to justify such disturbing genocidal tendencies.
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Re: The Beerus Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Wed Feb 03, 2021 4:31 pm

A nice read - I always appreciate posts like this.

As you know, I look at things from a manga perspective; I guess my feeling about Beerus, at least in this medium, is that the issue is more a question of his original motivation causing him an extremely tiresome amount of grief the longer he is forced to stick with it. He mentions that he seeks the Super Saiyan God, when introduced, because he would be "so much fun to play around with"...but I think progressively across the series, Beerus has learned that being involved with Goku and co. generally is very much not fun, except in the specific way that keeps him reliably engaged (that is to say, the food).

While Goku has had his horizons opened to things that excite him and align with the things he values most, Beerus has had his eyes opened to a world of trouble and peril that's spoiling his fun (e.g., losing a world of tasty food, being threatened by Zeno, dying thanks to a jumped-up Kaio, being threatened with Universal erasure, having to play with Zeno). I think that Beerus isn't really diminished by these hijinks or the reduction of things he apparently cares about, as such - he's just realised how limited the attractions of his association with Earth are, which is why the references to only caring about food seem to have been trotted out with such regularity - there's not much point in bringing up interests that aren't going to get fulfilled. I think this is emphasised by the fact that Whis is happy to continue the association, not least because of their slight 'old married couple' dynamic that means Whis also enjoys finding ways of discomfiting his eternal companion, and Goku and co are a convenient tool to this end - Beerus, if left to his own devices, would probably have withdrawn from his association with the Dragon Team by now - we wouldn't see him at all.

I don't feel that Whis's relative dependability is really responsible for showing Beerus up in this regard, but it is another interesting dynamic, particularly in the Moro arc - to see Beerus, who has the responsibility, right, and capacity to act but never chooses to, compared with Whis who, despite being pinned to his neutrality, finds ways of wielding it in a way that makes things happen, is something I find pretty interesting, at least.

Just some initial thoughts.

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Re: The Beerus Thread

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed Feb 03, 2021 4:43 pm

The poison thing was in the manga.
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Re: The Beerus Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Feb 03, 2021 4:48 pm

Yeah, I checked the Manga and it's there. They tried to poison him.

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