Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[BWri]

Black never had Kaioken for purely plot purposes really. He inherited all of Goku's signature moves and memories EXCEPT Kaioken, even though thematically it would have made so much sense for Black to use Kaioken, since he was North Kai. It's not a coincidence.

Fused Zamasu with Kaioken stacked on top of Super Saiyan Rosé on top of Immortality and perfect regeneration capabilities? The fight would have ended in 1 minute.

Perhaps it's something that's unique to our very own U7 Kaio. Maybe a technique that only he developed?

[SupremeKai25]

I don’t think by virtue of them both being north Kais that it would be that thematic. Was Trunks using Vegeta’s Gallic gun seen to be that thematic that he had ascended to embrace his families royal lineage? (Sure it sounds plausibly thematic but I’m just plucking that out of nowhere, realistically it was just done to appear cool - Trunks using Gohans Masenko is far more thematic)

Well it can be seen as thematic, Yes. Just as the idea of Vegeta using Galick Gun of all moves to protect the Earth (against Fused Zamasu's Holy Wrath) could be seen as thematic/ironic since he previously tried to destroy the Earth with the Galick Gun. Even if the writers didn't intend for it to be thematic, the fandom can see it as thematic.

The idea behind the kaioken was something that was never perfected by its creator and took someone’s hard work and effort to slowly master and improve over time. The theme of Zamasu wasn’t really hard work and effort when he stole Goku’s body. Then the manga has the Zenkai abuse aspect which isn’t very Goku like so I don’t think it would’ve been thematically fitting at all.

And that's why I dislike that piece of writing, and especially detest Vegeta's speech in the anime.

Yeah, Black just cheated and didn't work at all to achieve his powers... even though he spent an entire year fighting Trunks to become progressively more attuned to his new body. That sounds EXACTLY like hard work, just in a different form.

I hate the idea that Black never worked for his powers, sure he stole that body but he still managed to master it and bring out its great potential, something that Ginyu couldn't do.

There’s a difference from his sadism of getting to experience blows from the real Goku when in his stolen body, vs uneccesarily risking his goal by trying a technique he has no experience with.

Future Zamasu can heal him anyway, where's the problem?

In fact it would be very smart, that way he wouldn't even need an opponent to exploit his Zenkai.

Activate Kaioken > Get all messed up > Have Zamasu heal you > Get a Zenkai Boost > ??? > Profit

Sounds like a brilliant plan to me.

His prodigy nature is seen to be prodigy amongst Kais his main point of reference being to Shin from U7 at that point.

That makes him even more impressive than Frieza the prodigy honestly. Frieza is a prodigy compared to his family who are fodder to Shin (Supreme Kai Shin is >>>> any Namek saga character). And we all know how broken Frieza became due to being a prodigy.

You say all of Goku’s techniques but I can’t really recall his techniques used besides the ones I mentioned.

Goku's signature moves:

- Kamehameha: Used by Black.
- Instant Transmission: Used by Black.
- Saiyan transformations: Used by Black.
- Spirit Bomb: NOT used by Black. It might be because he no longer had a pure heart once he started purging ningens. However Zamasu was indeed stated to be pure of heart, so he theoretically could have used the Spirit Bomb.
- Kaioken: NOT used by Black.

So Black used 3 out of the 5 signature moves of Goku. That's not bad, he definitely could have used Kaioken too if he was given more time to grow stronger.

[Grand Marshal 1]

I'd say anything that has to do with both power/ki and spirit is not usable by Black. That measn the Kaio Ken as well, where we have seen several times over that he needs to calm his spirit and sync it with his power to make it work. Basically, what he learned from King Kai is his and his alone. King kai developed the techniques and taught them to Goku (Goku's body and spirit), not to Goku (Goku's body and Zamasu's spirit and energy).

[Krillin1994]

I don’t think by virtue of them both being north Kais that it would be that thematic. Was Trunks using Vegeta’s Gallic gun seen to be that thematic that he had ascended to embrace his families royal lineage? (Sure it sounds plausibly thematic but I’m just plucking that out of nowhere, realistically it was just done to appear cool - Trunks using Gohans Masenko is far more thematic)

Well it can be seen as thematic, Yes. Just as the idea of Vegeta using Galick Gun of all moves to protect the Earth (against Fused Zamasu's Holy Wrath) could be seen as thematic/ironic since he previously tried to destroy the Earth with the Galick Gun. Even if the writers didn't intend for it to be thematic, the fandom can see it as thematic.

The idea behind the kaioken was something that was never perfected by its creator and took someone’s hard work and effort to slowly master and improve over time. The theme of Zamasu wasn’t really hard work and effort when he stole Goku’s body. Then the manga has the Zenkai abuse aspect which isn’t very Goku like so I don’t think it would’ve been thematically fitting at all.

And that's why I dislike that piece of writing, and especially detest Vegeta's speech in the anime.

Yeah, Black just cheated and didn't work at all to achieve his powers... even though he spent an entire year fighting Trunks to become progressively more attuned to his new body. That sounds EXACTLY like hard work, just in a different form.

I hate the idea that Black never worked for his powers, sure he stole that body but he still managed to master it and bring out its great potential, something that Ginyu couldn't do.

There’s a difference from his sadism of getting to experience blows from the real Goku when in his stolen body, vs uneccesarily risking his goal by trying a technique he has no experience with.

Future Zamasu can heal him anyway, where's the problem?

In fact it would be very smart, that way he wouldn't even need an opponent to exploit his Zenkai.

Activate Kaioken > Get all messed up > Have Zamasu heal you > Get a Zenkai Boost > ??? > Profit

Sounds like a brilliant plan to me.

His prodigy nature is seen to be prodigy amongst Kais his main point of reference being to Shin from U7 at that point.

That makes him even more impressive than Frieza the prodigy honestly. Frieza is a prodigy compared to his family who are fodder to Shin (Supreme Kai Shin is >>>> any Namek saga character). And we all know how broken Frieza became due to being a prodigy.

You say all of Goku’s techniques but I can’t really recall his techniques used besides the ones I mentioned.

Goku's signature moves:

- Kamehameha: Used by Black.
- Instant Transmission: Used by Black.
- Saiyan transformations: Used by Black.
- Spirit Bomb: NOT used by Black. It might be because he no longer had a pure heart once he started purging ningens. However Zamasu was indeed stated to be pure of heart, so he theoretically could have used the Spirit Bomb.
- Kaioken: NOT used by Black.

So Black used 3 out of the 5 signature moves of Goku. That's not bad, he definitely could have used Kaioken too if he was given more time to grow stronger.

That’s the point anybody can just make their own tenuous thematic link even if it is stretching in the case of this North Kai link.

I would say Future Trunks was of little merit to Black’s gains, and I think really it was only after seeing Goku and Vegeta in action he made those gains. His move set was clearly mainly Ki blade focused not really Goku’s body. His use of Goku’s techniques really was sparing. He mainly kept his own Zamasu fighting style, hence his good teamwork with future Zamasu. But I will concede he did spend a lot of time fighting trunks and getting used to the body.

He did eventually bring out more of the power Goku had than Ginyu did. But he was in the body for around a year vs Ginyu hour or so tops. Even so his ‘prodigy talent to bring out that power’ saw him spend a year and still only be around SS2 level when he took a version of Goku that was post U6 tournament.

Would argue that Ginyu getting 23k from Goku’s namek power level of 90,000 (without kaioken) and rising during that fight against Gohan and Krillin is a far better percentage of Goku’s max power than SS2 to Blue.


Zenkai boosts don’t work if the damage is self inflicted as explained by Vegeta on Namek when he had krillin wound him to abuse the Zenkai. Plus Goku had the delayed consequence of inability to access his ki for a while after successful use. It would’ve ruined his plan if he tried it then just had no ki use and trunks beat him.

This is the ever so complicated kamehameha that Goku picked up after seeing once, Yamcha and Krillin attempted and managed to pull off. Tien saw once and managed to pull off. Gohan learned to use. Goten a child who barely could manipulate his ki to fly managed to almost pull off.
IT would be impressive were it not for the technique being inferior to the existing Kai Kai technique

I will say managing to work out Rosé is the best feat from him since it took a lot of work for Goku and Vegeta to achieve that. but again that was after fighting Vegeta, so arguably it was him learning to do so from Vegeta not Goku really, so one could argue Vegeta being the catalyst for that. Also he had the virtue of being born with God Ki from the start unlike Goku and Vegeta.

Spirit bomb again is another stretch, there’s nothing to indicate Zamasu is pure of heart. In fact they have a specific scene where he is making the tea and the disturbance on the tea surface thematically shows his loss of purity. A character thinking themselves pure doesn’t make it so. Roshi believed himself to still be able to fly the nimbus cloud.

[ZombieVito]

Kaioken at this point in the story is super risky and the damage it can do to your body can't be healed by powers or Senzu Beans going by episode 43 and 44.

Black was smart to not use the technique.

[SupremeKai25]

Goku with Kaioken could scratch Fused Zamasu himself :shrug:

Black with Kaioken would easily be Kefla tier at least, it was a missed opportunity (Goku with SSB and Kaioken could fight Kefla after all...).

The funny thing is that the videogame Xenoverse 2 has some unused lines of Black using Kaioken

[Thani]

Goku with Kaioken could scratch Fused Zamasu himself :shrug:

Black with Kaioken would easily be Kefla tier at least, it was a missed opportunity (Goku with SSB and Kaioken could fight Kefla after all...).

The funny thing is that the videogame Xenoverse 2 has some unused lines of Black using Kaioken

Hmm, I dunno. I do think that Black with the 20x Kaioken would give a much more even fight against SSj Kefla, but I don't see him rivaling the U7 Genki Dama in sheer power. I could see him eventually lose.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

How strong was SSJ Rosé Goku Black in the manga? He easily destroyed SSJB Vegeta in their first fight, but Vegeta could also easily dodge his blows as a SSJG pre Rosat. I tend to chalk it up to stamina issues, but even after taking the senzu Vegeta still struggled against even golden SSJ Goku Black. Did Vegeta power up in the Rosat? Or was he struggling with some form of Shouki loss fighting Goku Black?

[Koitsukai]

How strong was SSJ Rosé Goku Black in the manga? He easily destroyed SSJB Vegeta in their first fight, but Vegeta could also easily dodge his blows as a SSJG pre Rosat. I tend to chalk it up to stamina issues, but even after taking the senzu Vegeta still struggled against even golden SSJ Goku Black. Did Vegeta power up in the Rosat? Or was he struggling with some form of Shouki loss fighting Goku Black?

He is incomplete-blue level, only for some reason he suffers no power loss like the saiyans, at least not implied. He is out of actual blue's league, that is the complete form, but can be defeated by a combination of SSG and incomplete blue. He may have a more stable transformation, one without considerable power drain but at the exchange of some other aspects, speed may be one of them because SSG was too fast for SS Rose.

His fight with Vegeta was when the manga expanded upon the power drain concept, so it probably was meant to be taken as SSB being unrealiable in its incomplete state, not even after eating a senzu bean the full power of the form can be used. It is possible Vegeta also suffered from a shouki loss considering he was using a form that was not living up to its expectations in a fight he thought already won, I know I get frustrated when I lose online in FIFA, playing with a top side against a weaker side.
All we know about Vegeta's training is that he mastered the art of going from one form to the other, he probable powered up but it wasn't why he went on to beat Black.

[Thani]

How strong was SSJ Rosé Goku Black in the manga? He easily destroyed SSJB Vegeta in their first fight, but Vegeta could also easily dodge his blows as a SSJG pre Rosat. I tend to chalk it up to stamina issues, but even after taking the senzu Vegeta still struggled against even golden SSJ Goku Black. Did Vegeta power up in the Rosat? Or was he struggling with some form of Shouki loss fighting Goku Black?

So yeah, it was pretty much a messy affair, that fight. The golden SSj performance can be chalked up to Black simply being close to turning Rosé, so the difference in power wasn't big. It's also simple to assume that Black's Rosé has a stronger starting point than Vegeta's Blue. I assume this because God Zamas was dead even with Goku's own CSSB, who was defined as Blue's full power constantly, and Goku didn't train in the arc at all.

So, like, it would be...

CSSBlue/Rosé = 100%
Regular Rosé = 80%
Regular Blue = 70%

With the switching technique allowing Vegeta to strike with the force of the CSSB state, which would be enough to overpower Black.

I assume that's the case, though, because Vegeta NEEDED that strategy to beat Black, implying Black in Rosé was still stronger than Vegeta in Blue, all things being equal. If not, Vegeta could simply go Blue and wreck Black, instead of saving the energy to strike with the form's full power.

[ZombieVito]

Vegeta didn't use the power of Completed Blue at all during the arc.

Also the difference between Blue and Completed Blue is big since it's confirmed Fused Zamasu got a big fusion boost.



I always assumed the difference is 10 times since SSG > 10% Blue. If SSG is 20% Blue then the boost for Blue is 5 times and this would make Completed Blue a 50 times boost just like the anime. It fits perfectly.

[TobyS]

Vegeta didn't use the power of Completed Blue at all during the arc.

Also the difference between Blue and Completed Blue is big since it's confirmed Fused Zamasu got a big fusion boost.



I always assumed the difference is 10 times since SSG > 10% Blue. If SSG is 20% Blue then the boost for Blue is 5 times and this would make Completed Blue a 50 times boost just like the anime. It fits perfectly.

It's weird to me that a perfected form would give a bigger boost then the unperfected form would give over the previous form. Doesn't seem right to me but I have no evidence.

5-50x in one jump is too much imo except for like ss3 to red or fusion.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I do like the idea that base to SS to SSG to SSB is a 50 times boost between each of these forms from the Broly movie.

[ZombieVito]

I do like the idea that base to SS to SSG to SSB is a 50 times boost between each of these forms from the Broly movie.

SS to SSG a 50 times boost? Doesn't that conflict with the Broly movie?

[Hugo Boss]

I do like the idea that base to SS to SSG to SSB is a 50 times boost between each of these forms from the Broly movie.

SS to SSG a 50 times boost? Doesn't that conflict with the Broly movie?

How so?

[ZombieVito]

I do like the idea that base to SS to SSG to SSB is a 50 times boost between each of these forms from the Broly movie.

SS to SSG a 50 times boost? Doesn't that conflict with the Broly movie?

How so?

Broly without going full Ikari form tanked a punch from SSG Vegeta. Base Broly was weaker than SSG but stronger than Super Saiyan.

[Hugo Boss]

SS to SSG a 50 times boost? Doesn't that conflict with the Broly movie?

How so?

Broly without going full Ikari form tanked a punch from SSG Vegeta. Base Broly was weaker than SSG but stronger than Super Saiyan.

I’m still not seeing the conflict.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I also envisioned Broly's own power boosts following suit alongside the jumps from SS to SSG to SSB, each one being 50 times to match his his opponents.

[ZombieVito]

How so?

Broly without going full Ikari form tanked a punch from SSG Vegeta. Base Broly was weaker than SSG but stronger than Super Saiyan.

I’m still not seeing the conflict.

The difference between SS and God can't be bigger than the multiplier of Broly's Ikari form.

[Hugo Boss]

Broly without going full Ikari form tanked a punch from SSG Vegeta. Base Broly was weaker than SSG but stronger than Super Saiyan.

I’m still not seeing the conflict.

The difference between SS and God can't be bigger than the multiplier of Broly's Ikari form.

Why not?