Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

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Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by Kakacarrottop » Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:06 am

Off the top of my head, there's:

FUNi Z dub fans vs Sub fans (Still going strong even today. A quick stroll through Youtube comments will confirm this)

FUNi Z dub fans vs Ocean fans (Seems to have died down ever since Drummond did Copy Vegeta and the Oceans VAs began appearing at Kamehacons with the FUNi VAs)

FUNi Z dub fans vs Kai fans (Super is the current go to thing for younger fans so this also seems to have died down a bit)

Manga fans vs anime fans (Unlike the above things, this isn't just exclusive to Dragon Ball)

Orange Brick fans vs Dragon Box fans (Before the Blu-Rays came out this debate was mainly relegated to this website, but now it's also a big thing on Youtube)

And finally, since the mid-2010s we have DBS fans vs GT fans, which is very prominent on other websites that discuss Dragon Ball, not just Youtube. I'd never heard anyone being called a "GT fanboy" before 2015, but now it's incessantly used whenever someone criticizes Super or claims that GT is canon.
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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:23 am

Anything regarding which English dub is better, or dub vs sub, although I don't see those arguments as frequently as I used to (or maybe I just ignore them now). Followed by DBS vs DBGT. With the latter, it's similar to what's going on with the Star Wars Sequel and Prequel Trilogies. One was highly maligned, and now the newer one is more highly maligned due to social media being more prominent. Meanwhile, those who were already fans of the older one are defending it even more vehemently, while those who hate the newer one are flocking in defense of the older one they used to hate. More or less. :lol:
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by Jiren The Alpha » Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:42 am

Those 5 GT fans are putting up a good fight.

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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by PurestEvil » Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:14 am

Jiren The Alpha wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:42 am Those 5 GT fans are putting up a good fight.
Might wanna add a few zeros to that figure
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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by Kunzait_83 » Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:49 am

Regarding the FUNi dub vs sub aspect of all this (since really, that remains not only the very worst of the divide, but the root-most source of it all), someone on a Discord server recently had summed it up best I think:

I truly, sincerely, with the bottom of my heart, do not understand why in the world is the obsession with Funimation even a thing in 2021. The subbed animes are so incredibly easy to access, with Simmons' subs straight up being the best way to consume DB in English bar some issues with the construction of Goku's dialogue and overly literal readings on a few lines here and there, and Funi's dub is gonna do their usual shtick targeting their crowd.

It all just reads to me as one side stubbornly trying to convince the other to bend over and suck their dicks even though, from my point of view, these are two entirely different fanbases that might as well not even bother interacting with each other anymore.
Honestly, this sums it up far better than anything anyone else (myself included) has said on the subject that I've seen, and I specifically think its this part right here:

"these are two entirely different fanbases that might as well not even bother interacting with each other anymore."

...that REALLY gets to the heart of it. I've felt this way (and have even said as much myself) for literally decades now. We're all just NOT into the same series, period, because the sheer gulf of difference between them is just THAT stark and overpowering.

What we've had here for decades now are two completely different fanbases for two totally different, disparate works that are totally incompatible with one another and shouldn't even be probably interacting in the same space with one another on the regular: because despite ostensibly featuring the same characters and story, there's so much that's been changed at the foundational level of the English version that it ultimately leaves so very little in the way of substantive common ground between both fanbases for both versions.
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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by Xeogran » Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:56 am

Jiren The Alpha wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:42 am Those 5 GT fans are putting up a good fight.
Weak bait. I'm a GT fan and ain't an Internet comment change what I actually like.
I have fond memories of this series and will stay with it.

I also like Super and don't care about participating in these dumb, childish wars in the first place.

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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:28 am

Without a doubt Super vs. GT and this was very prevalent back when the anime was airing (not so much now since most of the fans have moved on without a weekly anime). GT fans wouldn't shut up at every episode preview about how GT was so much better, how it had such brilliant ideas (but how unfortunately, sadly, regrettably all those extremely clever and complex ideas were executed badly... the classic excuse), how Super should get cancelled, and how SS4 was totally better than every new form introduced in Super. It was eye-rolling :roll:

While Super fans and normal people were just... you know... talking about the current and upcoming episodes.

This was especially prevalent when MUI was revealed and these people complained that it was just "another recolour", it got very annoying towards the end of the ToP arc to hear the same complaints over and over again. You can even check for yourself by looking at the archived Episodes discussion threads.

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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by pixie_misa » Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:14 am

I appreciate both the original japanese version and funimation's reversioning, so honestly I'm just glad I never got into any of those arguments, but eh I tend to avoid "fandom" stuff in general.

That said, while I can understand most of these being a matter of preference, is Orange Bricks vs Dragon Boxes really a thing??? Like there aren't people who seriously think the orange bricks are a great version are there? I know plenty of people who own the orange bricks, but it's usually simply because they're the easiest and cheapest way to get the whole series officially. I find it baffling that anyone would be like "no way, cropped image and DNR so aggressive that it erases linework at times looks *great*, way better than that poopy Dragon Box"

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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:29 am

pixie_misa wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:14 am I appreciate both the original japanese version and funimation's reversioning, so honestly I'm just glad I never got into any of those arguments, but eh I tend to avoid "fandom" stuff in general.

That said, while I can understand most of these being a matter of preference, is Orange Bricks vs Dragon Boxes really a thing??? Like there aren't people who seriously think the orange bricks are a great version are there? I know plenty of people who own the orange bricks, but it's usually simply because they're the easiest and cheapest way to get the whole series officially. I find it baffling that anyone would be like "no way, cropped image and DNR so aggressive that it erases linework at times looks *great*, way better than that poopy Dragon Box"

I think the only people who prefer the Orange Bricks are dub music fans. And even then they have the steelbooks now.

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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:54 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:29 am
pixie_misa wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:14 am I appreciate both the original japanese version and funimation's reversioning, so honestly I'm just glad I never got into any of those arguments, but eh I tend to avoid "fandom" stuff in general.

That said, while I can understand most of these being a matter of preference, is Orange Bricks vs Dragon Boxes really a thing??? Like there aren't people who seriously think the orange bricks are a great version are there? I know plenty of people who own the orange bricks, but it's usually simply because they're the easiest and cheapest way to get the whole series officially. I find it baffling that anyone would be like "no way, cropped image and DNR so aggressive that it erases linework at times looks *great*, way better than that poopy Dragon Box"

I think the only people who prefer the Orange Bricks are dub music fans. And even then they have the steelbooks now.
I used to hold on to my Orange Bricks for nostalgic purposes, but I actually sold them earlier in the year since I find I vastly prefer Kikuchi for DB/Z. I may eventually get the steelbooks, and I do still enjoy some Faulconer tracks. But I was surprised with how easy it was for me to part with them (besides the terrible remastering that is).
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:05 pm

People who base their identity on stubbornly defending their fandom inevitably lead to this sort of dumb shit. The orange juice fan or the apple juice fan aren't the issue, it's the fan who thinks they need to die on the hill of their sippy cup's content being the best.
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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:08 pm

Xeogran wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:56 am
Jiren The Alpha wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:42 am Those 5 GT fans are putting up a good fight.
Weak bait. I'm a GT fan and ain't an Internet comment change what I actually like.
I have fond memories of this series and will stay with it.

I also like Super and don't care about participating in these dumb, childish wars in the first place.
I also like both. I used to jump on the bandwagon GT hate when I was younger, and at that time I had only caught glimpses of episodes with the English dub and soundtrack, which were admittedly pretty bad. I watched all of GT in Japanese last year, and while it has a lot of issues, I found myself overall a fan of the product. I suppose that's a cycle that can happen once new products come out; when GT was it, I suppose people were more disappointed since it was believed to be the final Dragon Ball series. Now with Super, sure it has a myriad of issues, but I still have a blast with it from the U6 Tournament onward. I don't really care which one is better.

Which brings another contentious issue in the fandom that is equally annoying, the subject of canon vs non-canon. People trying to validate Super on the sole merit that it's "canon" and invalidate GT because it's "non-canon." In general this is a goofy reason to claim to enjoy anything.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:11 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:05 pm People who base their identity on stubbornly defending their fandom inevitably lead to this sort of dumb shit. The orange juice fan or the apple juice fan aren't the issue, it's the fan who thinks they need to die on the hill of their sippy cup's content being the best.
Not to veer this off-topic, but that's relevant to so many fandoms. Like Marvel vs DC and Marvel Cinematic Universe vs DC Extended Universe, etc. Whether it's Dragon Ball or them, these people make me want to Instant Transmission to the Kaioshin Realm lol.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:15 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:11 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:05 pm People who base their identity on stubbornly defending their fandom inevitably lead to this sort of dumb shit. The orange juice fan or the apple juice fan aren't the issue, it's the fan who thinks they need to die on the hill of their sippy cup's content being the best.
Not to veer this off-topic, but that's relevant to so many fandoms. Like Marvel vs DC and Marvel Cinematic Universe vs DC Extended Universe, etc. Whether it's Dragon Ball or them, these people make me want to Instant Transmission to the Kaioshin Realm lol.
Pretty much. Like, everything has to be a debate and a competition and I'm just too old and tired for that weirdly antagonistic shit. I work 40+ hours and week and have health shit to deal with, the internet is supposed to ve about learning and goofing off, not defending cartoons like I have some sort of stake in them.

Now watch me fall into this fucking pitfall tomorrow...
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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:20 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:15 pm Pretty much. Like, everything has to be a debate and a competition and I'm just too old and tired for that weirdly antagonistic shit. I work 40+ hours and week and have health shit to deal with, the internet is supposed to ve about learning and goofing off, not defending cartoons like I have some sort of stake in them.

Now watch me fall into this fucking pitfall tomorrow...
It's one thing if debates are actually made with the intent of listening to another perspective, even if it doesn't change yours. It's another when it's these hostile back-and-forths with someone seeking validation in proving that they're right. Art is subjective so it's a fruitless endeavor. So much more can be gained by having discussions about the series/franchise you love without it devolving into the pettiness it often does.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by Yuli Ban » Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:40 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:49 am Regarding the FUNi dub vs sub aspect of all this (since really, that remains not only the very worst of the divide, but the root-most source of it all), someone on a Discord server recently had summed it up best I think:

I truly, sincerely, with the bottom of my heart, do not understand why in the world is the obsession with Funimation even a thing in 2021. The subbed animes are so incredibly easy to access, with Simmons' subs straight up being the best way to consume DB in English bar some issues with the construction of Goku's dialogue and overly literal readings on a few lines here and there, and Funi's dub is gonna do their usual shtick targeting their crowd.

It all just reads to me as one side stubbornly trying to convince the other to bend over and suck their dicks even though, from my point of view, these are two entirely different fanbases that might as well not even bother interacting with each other anymore.
Honestly, this sums it up far better than anything anyone else (myself included) has said on the subject that I've seen, and I specifically think its this part right here:

"these are two entirely different fanbases that might as well not even bother interacting with each other anymore."

...that REALLY gets to the heart of it. I've felt this way (and have even said as much myself) for literally decades now. We're all just NOT into the same series, period, because the sheer gulf of difference between them is just THAT stark and overpowering.

What we've had here for decades now are two completely different fanbases for two totally different, disparate works that are totally incompatible with one another and shouldn't even be probably interacting in the same space with one another on the regular: because despite ostensibly featuring the same characters and story, there's so much that's been changed at the foundational level of the English version that it ultimately leaves so very little in the way of substantive common ground between both fanbases for both versions.
I've made peace with the split, but I still just wish I could get in contact with a major video-essay YouTuber, like Totally Not Mark or Super Eyepatch Wolf or Geekdom101, and help write a massive essay on these ACTUAL roots of Dragon Ball and its ACTUAL history.

And in that video, I'd love nothing more than to stress over and over again that I have nothing against fans of FUNi Ball Z on principle and everything against the inability or even outright rejection to understand what really made DBZ what it was.

I've met someone who now uses the terms 'Wuxia' and knows of 1970s kung fu movies who STILL prefers the Faulconer-blasting "Hope of the Universe" FUNi dub, and that's okay AS LONG AS HE UNDERSTANDS WHAT DRAGON BALL IS REALLY MEANT TO BE. It's like, no one here would seriously tolerate someone saying that Naruto is a Tolkienesque fantasy; we'd think they're a troll if they argued that, especially if their only points are "there are fantasy creatures, magical incantations, and characters using swords." It's clearly a shinobi fantasy (with a few post-wuxia trappings), not a Tolkienesque one. Knowing that wouldn't and shouldn't diminish your fandom of it; it's not like going from "Oh, shonen is actually a demographic, not a genre" suddenly kills your childhood.

My damage is when I see people who steadfastly fight against learning any of this. Why would you rather embrace ignorance of your favorite series than deepen your understanding of it?

Because of childhood nostalgia, is basically why. We live in an age where, thanks to validation bubbles and the ability to connect with whole communities online that never would have been there even thirty years ago, one's childhood has gone from being a formative era for your adulthood into becoming your identity itself, so anything that criticizes or threatens something you liked in childhood becomes a personal attack.
So even just asking some people to "appreciate what went into Dragon Ball" becomes a war of attrition because they've already accepted that Dragon Ball comes solely from Journey to the West a little bit and mostly Terminator/Superman/Marvel/maybe Enter the Dragon and was a distinctly hardcore 90s action anime and find no reason to change that.

After all, "it's just a simple show about screaming and punching and blowing things up. Why take it so seriously?" Though to me, the inverse can also be true: if it's just a simple show about screaming and punching and blowing things up, then surely learning a bit about why it's that way would make it all even cooler?
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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by Kakacarrottop » Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:35 pm

pixie_misa wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:14 am is Orange Bricks vs Dragon Boxes really a thing???
There's even meme videos about "Orange Brick defenders" now
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fHg56m_VB4
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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by Thanos » Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:45 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:49 am"these are two entirely different fanbases that might as well not even bother interacting with each other anymore."

...that REALLY gets to the heart of it. I've felt this way (and have even said as much myself) for literally decades now. We're all just NOT into the same series, period, because the sheer gulf of difference between them is just THAT stark and overpowering.

What we've had here for decades now are two completely different fanbases for two totally different, disparate works that are totally incompatible with one another and shouldn't even be probably interacting in the same space with one another on the regular: because despite ostensibly featuring the same characters and story, there's so much that's been changed at the foundational level of the English version that it ultimately leaves so very little in the way of substantive common ground between both fanbases for both versions.
I have no interest in adding to the hostility or coming across like I don't want them here, but sometimes I wonder why FUNi fans congregate here at all. I think it's cool that everyone is welcome and that's perfect, but... you have two rather large Dragon Ball Reddit communities and all of YouTube which lean heavily on the FUNi dub stuff, and Kanzenshuu to me traditionally was the one place where people weren't called a "weeb" for simply referring to characters by the names given to them by their creator. It's not uncommon at all to see argument and disagreements here based on mistranslations.

if I'm not mistaken, it wasn't until fairly recently that many FUNi purists decided to join Kanzenshuu because it feels like it's only in recent years that many Japanese vs. FUNi debates took place in threads here, by and large. Back in the Daizenshuu days, it feels like the community was quite simpatico in their preference for the Japanese version, and words like "Hercule" were shunned and even censored at one point. I do still find it peculiar seeing all the "Faulconer redub" threads in the fan forum. Personally, if I were a FUNi fan, I don't know if I'd bother coming here at all. I see them get piled on for voicing their preferences (something I'm guilty of and I'm still working on trying to be nicer about it, in earnest), and one has to feel bad for them. Again, it's awesome that they're here but there seems to be an insurmountable miscommunication based on all of the nuanced differences between the two versions.
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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by Majin Buu » Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:08 pm

Thanos wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:45 pm I have no interest in adding to the hostility or coming across like I don't want them here, but sometimes I wonder why FUNi fans congregate here at all. I think it's cool that everyone is welcome and that's perfect, but... you have two rather large Dragon Ball Reddit communities and all of YouTube which lean heavily on the FUNi dub stuff, and Kanzenshuu to me traditionally was the one place where people weren't called a "weeb" for simply referring to characters by the names given to them by their creator. It's not uncommon at all to see argument and disagreements here based on mistranslations.
Considering how some dub fans react when they meet someone who expresses that they don't like the dub, I'm surprised too.

Specifically: Years ago I had a bad run in with someone on this forum who had recently been a guest on the podcast due to having hosted a Dragon Ball club at their college. I and someone else (I think it was Gaffer) politely expressed that this club wouldn't be for us when it was clarified that they focused on the dub. The person then rudely said something to the effect of "Fine, one less asshole then." No criticism of the dub came with any of this either as far as I remember. We just politely stated our preferences and got shit for it.

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Re: Which causes the worst in-fighting among Dragon Ball fans?

Post by PurestEvil » Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:14 pm

Majin Buu wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:08 pm ...I and someone else (I think it was Gaffer) politely expressed that this club wouldn't be for us when it was clarified that they focused on the dub. The person then rudely said something to the effect of "Fine, one less asshole then." [...]
Dude must’ve been suffering from IRONY OVERDOSE
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