AndLad92 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:43 pm And I can't wait the see what Bardock did and if Vegeta has something to say about this.
I only brought up Vegeta because in Movie 1 he oddly has no reaction upon seeing Paragus and Broly. Vegeta is like "oh, there's more Saiyans. Whatever".
So seeing Vegeta expressing anything after what Monaito said is something else, to say the least. He has to know something, anything! And he has to tell us!
• We help! ... Hmm. Always get Autobots out of messes they get into. •
Goku vs Granola was pretty entertaining. It's cool to see Goku going for Blue, instead of busting out MUI. What can I even say? It's amusing to see Goku trying his best with what he has. Considering how much energy he had, Goku did pretty well. He used his brain instead of his muscles. We are talking about the greatest martial artist in the universe, after all. He's smart and catches up quickly. He did the impossible and fought an even stronger Granola...
Also, nice artwork.
Mr Baggins wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:39 pm
Super's biggest development is primarily reserved for the guest characters within each story arc, which is more or less what I'd expect from a subseries like this.
I guess my preference is that they remain static, and demonstrate their growth through the OG series by bouncing off new characters. I feel adding more stuff to them muddies their development.
You saw Batman v Superman? Is it the Ultimate Edition? No? Then you haven't seen Batman v Superman. Also, the Snyder Cut is the greatest, non-deconstructionist ensemble comic book film ever made.
"Bardock."
"You mean the scientist?"
"The very same"
Yeah, I'm not a fan of the continued cuddling of Bardock and going further into the obvious Kal-El metaphore here. I liked that, in the original series and the OVA, Bardock wasn't this important figure but a grunt with enough self-awareness to try to start a revolution. Not a fan of Bardock the scientist, but we'll see how it works out
Aside from that, I enjoyed this chapter. Loved, Vegeta smartly kicking Granola into the village and taunting him about repeating the cycle. This is very much a "character chapter" so not a lot of great fighting choreography, but Vegeta biting Granola's arm is an all time. I do like Vegeta punching Goku out of the way, though how Goku responds is like a brother vaguely annoyed at his younger brother's shenannigans.
I want to point out how great the battle damage has gotten by this chapter. Vegeta's clothes are in tatters and he's covered in blood. Goku's shirt is full of holes and he's ended up with a twist on his classic outfit (with his shirt around his waist). Granolah is in relatively good shape, but he's lost his gloves and two of his most iconic design elements (Oatmil and his scarf). While the fight has drawn out a bit longer than I might have hoped, these chapters have been really fun, and everyone looks sufficiently battered for it.
batistabus wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:25 pm
I want to point out how great the battle damage has gotten by this chapter. Vegeta's clothes are in tatters and he's covered in blood. Goku's shirt is full of holes and he's ended up with a twist on his classic outfit (with his shirt around his waist). Granolah is in relatively good shape, but he's lost his gloves and two of his most iconic design elements (Oatmil and his scarf). While the fight has drawn out a bit longer than I might have hoped, these chapters have been really fun, and everyone looks sufficiently battered for it.
These are subtle ways to show storytelling that doesn't involve people yelling exposition at each other. Seriously the last couple of chapters have been incredibly well done in this regard.
Also: Vegeta just accepting his fate. It ties into his point made last arc about how he acknowledges he and his race has done wrong, but refuses to apologize for it. Vegeta is going to hell no matter what he does. What he can do is choose how he gets there. Really like how Vegeta is treated here. This is what it looks like when a story respects your character--when it offers the dignity. Not just endlessly winning battles.
Something I missed:
"You see confused..but know that I've only ever agreed to fight side-by-side when we had something protect"
"Protect huh...? How about preserving your own life? Or are you trying to get yourself killed here?!"
"Better that...than teaming up with you."
Really interesting stuff here. Wonder how this is going to play into future chapters.
Last edited by kemuri07 on Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
May just be me but I'm getting some major Enishi type vibes from Granolah right -- the thoroughgoing pursuit of vengeance at almost any cost which sees him becoming increasingly unwound but not completely devoid of scruples. They're also willing to sacrifice their body and life for the completion of their revenge against people whom they hate. From a reader's perspective it's a cliche model but I do have to give credit to Toyotaro for making an avenger archetype who didn't turn out to be a megalomaniacal scumbag like Baby.
Pertaining to the choreography I thought it odd how Goku was able to apparently reorient the area of his vitals in order to avoid a dire blow. Did he micro-shift his body so as to circumvent a direct hit to his vitals? I guess it's a display of that martial genius persona he's credited with. Better yet it's independent from those first-come-first-served training montages of his where he's labelled a genius with the fruits of a new training style or teacher no one else has partaken helping to prop up the profile.
Rest of the chapter was okay. I don't care for the transformations. The fight itself was fairly standard. I'm mostly interested in Granolah's vital point style in that respect. Vegeta himself showed some myopic reasoning when he expressed his willingness to die. Someone has to be there to defend your family which you acknowledged as being the sole motivation for collaborating with Goku in a life or death battle. Well what does he suppose will happen if he's killed at the hands of Granolah? It would be one thing if in the process of accepting death he chided Goku on needing to take a harsher and more resolute attitude with Gohan so that the young man can replace him as the front line of defence of Earth.
batistabus wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:25 pm
I want to point out how great the battle damage has gotten by this chapter. Vegeta's clothes are in tatters and he's covered in blood. Goku's shirt is full of holes and he's ended up with a twist on his classic outfit (with his shirt around his waist). Granolah is in relatively good shape, but he's lost his gloves and two of his most iconic design elements (Oatmil and his scarf). While the fight has drawn out a bit longer than I might have hoped, these chapters have been really fun, and everyone looks sufficiently battered for it.
Battle damage and blood are fantastic narrative tools. They shown progression and that the characters aren’t action figures; they bleed and can get fatigued. It makes the moves matter.
You saw Batman v Superman? Is it the Ultimate Edition? No? Then you haven't seen Batman v Superman. Also, the Snyder Cut is the greatest, non-deconstructionist ensemble comic book film ever made.
kemuri07 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:11 pm
I liked that, in the original series and the OVA, Bardock wasn't this important figure but a grunt with enough self-awareness to try to start a revolution.
Bardock was a fighting prodigy in the TV special with an ability that no other Saiyan had. I'd argue it's actually Toei's version of the character that completely diminishes the themes of Goku's physical growth in the manga.
The Bardock in Minus/Broly was actually a grunt, but he was a grunt that could think a little critically and happened to care about his family. This current development might push that altruistic streak a bit too far depending on what the next chapter does, but there's nothing particularly "special" about Toriyama's Bardock.
The biggest concern, for me, is that it's probably going to redeem Granolah and feel like a convenient cop-out.
Review scores for the DBS manga (and movies):
Spoiler:
Battle of Gods (2013 film): 9/10
Resurrection 'F' (2015 film): 7/10
Universe 6: 8/10
Future Trunks: 7/10
Universe Survival: 8.5/10
Broly (2018 film): 9.5/10
Galactic Patrol Prisoners: 6/10
Granolah the Survivor: 3/10
Super Hero (2022 film and manga arc): 7.5/10
. Vegeta himself showed some myopic reasoning when he expressed his willingness to die. Someone has to be there to defend your family which you acknowledged as being the sole motivation for collaborating with Goku in a life or death battle. Well what does he suppose will happen if he's killed at the hands of Granolah? It would be one thing if in the process of accepting death he chided Goku on needing to take a harsher and more resolute attitude with Gohan so that the young man can replace him as the front line of defence of Earth.
I get the impression that, since he responds that it's his Saiyan pride, that he is well aware of the hypocrisy of his stance. Above all else, he needs to prove that he doesn't need Goku to get things done. I also imagine that he trusts Goku to take care of his family even if he is killed.
batistabus wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:25 pm
I want to point out how great the battle damage has gotten by this chapter. Vegeta's clothes are in tatters and he's covered in blood. Goku's shirt is full of holes and he's ended up with a twist on his classic outfit (with his shirt around his waist). Granolah is in relatively good shape, but he's lost his gloves and two of his most iconic design elements (Oatmil and his scarf). While the fight has drawn out a bit longer than I might have hoped, these chapters have been really fun, and everyone looks sufficiently battered for it.
I'm also glad that Toyotaro used Cereal Planet's environment very well in both fights. The Moro arc's climax was set entirely in a wasteland, so it's refreshing to see them fighting in forests, rivers, ruins and cities. It's a new planet, so it must be explored.
My main problem is with pacing indeed. Not much in this chapter because it was more character-focused, but some fight sections could certainly have been streamlined. In this case I would say that at least the choreography and art was good for the most part, and at times great
. Vegeta himself showed some myopic reasoning when he expressed his willingness to die. Someone has to be there to defend your family which you acknowledged as being the sole motivation for collaborating with Goku in a life or death battle. Well what does he suppose will happen if he's killed at the hands of Granolah? It would be one thing if in the process of accepting death he chided Goku on needing to take a harsher and more resolute attitude with Gohan so that the young man can replace him as the front line of defence of Earth.
I get the impression that, since he responds that it's his Saiyan pride, that he is well aware of the hypocrisy of his stance. Above all else, he needs to prove that he doesn't need Goku to get things done. I also imagine that he trusts Goku to take care of his family even if he is killed.
Well talk about putting the world on one man's shoulders. To be fair it's not like Goku is unfamiliar with the sensation -- he's been carrying the torch since Daimou, even the original Red Ribbon Army though I'm not sure if he fully appreciated what it was he had done in disbanding a major threat to the world government.
Vegeta should also know that Porguna could be summoned to resurrect him. I wonder if that was part of his contemplations as he was staring death in the face. Granolah's vengeance could be partly sated while the prince is surreptitiously brought back to life afterwards.
- As much as I would want to give shit to Vegeta for acting like an ungrateful asshole when Goku is trying to save his life, it at least was handwaved that Vegeta needed to be an asshole to tap into his God power (Ultra Ego). So at least it made sense.
- Nice to see Goku being the voice of reason for once.
- The page of Granolah just unleashing finger ki blast at Vegeta at point-blank range when he's lying down on the floor is one of the best pages Toyotaro has ever drawn. It's so brutal and emphasises just how unhinged Granloah has become. Great stuff.
- Really great character writing for Vegeta and Goku in general. Their dynamic has never felt more down to Earth and wonderfully subdued. The main highpoint for me being Vegeta realising he can't back to the terrible person he once was to make the most use of his Godly power. Servers a really great highlight for how even if Vegeta wanted to go back to who he was before for more strength, he simply couldn't. He's moved on. Serves also as a great contrast to how basically allow himself to corrupted by Babidi's magic in the Majin Boo arc in the desperate attempt for power and feel like the Saiyan he was before.
- I really, really, HATE the idea of whitewashing Bardock's character. It's not just Dragon Ball Minus is a fucking awful story and the worst supplementary material that has ever been attached to the franchise, but it's more for what making Bardock a more "heroic" character represents for Dragon Ball as a whole these days: that any original unique concept that provided Dragon Ball with a cutting edge to its story in a grander scale has to be defanged and simplified to appeal to a broader audience who are more content with banal and trite storytelling.
Bardock is a character that is not meant to be saving people. He's meant to be a nobody. A piece of shit. A space pirate in the purest form. That's the point. That's what makes the whole concept of Goku being the antithesis to his brutish, uncaring, bloodthirsty race work and what makes Goku an even more nuanced character than he appears to be. It's what makes the underlying theme of classism in the Saiyan arc so potent and relevant. It's what makes Goku accepting his heritage in the Freeza arc after Vegeta is killed by Freeza such a powerful and poignant character moment. It's what makes Goku entire journey as a martial artist on Earth so unique, given the circumstances. By crowbarring in story elements from Dragon Ball Minus, especially regarding how Bardock is written in that story... you lose all of that.
Overall thoughts... at least the story is moving forward somewhat.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
I wonder how many chapters until Vegeta refines his UE form so that, while still being "in the mindset of a Destroyer", he'll be able to keep his wits about him as well, like noticing that he's taking too much damage and not still be in the mindset outside the form. Maybe the next arc, or it'll be similar to Goku's UI progression.
I liked this chapter. Stuff is finally happening! And I think Bardock just left Granollah alive. "There's no point in killing this boy, so why should I?".
Pure shit ... we have vageta base hitting Goku SSB ... there is no doubt that they no longer care about PL
Vegeta is basically acting foolish for the same reason that toppo did to keep his transform but the difference here is that with current vegeta ... that feels like a regression of his personality after everything seen before ..
Monaito is on his way to being a worse ally than gowasu
Bardock ... pff desperate fanservice .. Is this DB Heroes?
the only good thing has been goku acting more like an earthling than a warrior ...
This is not regarding this chapter, but..
I just received DBS manga volume 14 and finished reading it. For the first time (I think) the last page in the last chapter in a DBS volume, it doesn't say "To be continued".
As a big fan of Dragon Ball, I should be expected to hate the live action movie "Dragon Ball: Evolution", but I don't. I don't like it because of the content, but because it gave us Dragon Ball Super:
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super.
Bardock is a character that is not meant to be saving people. He's meant to be a nobody. A piece of shit. A space pirate in the purest form. That's the point. That's what makes the whole concept of Goku being the antithesis to his brutish, uncaring, bloodthirsty race work and what makes Goku an even more nuanced character than he appears to be. It's what makes the underlying theme of classism in the Saiyan arc so potent and relevant. It's what makes Goku accepting his heritage in the Freeza arc after Vegeta is killed by Freeza such a powerful and poignant character moment. It's what makes Goku entire journey as a martial artist on Earth so unique, given the circumstances. By crowbarring in story elements from Dragon Ball Minus, especially regarding how Bardock is written in that story... you lose all of that.
Bardock's entire thing is a metaphor for gaining knowledge and overcoming ignorance. Most of the Saiyans, Bardock included, operate not thinking about anything beyond satisfying their own ids. Being instilled with the curse of seeing the future, means that Bardock has to think, for the first time, about something other than himself. He doesn't change, but his last act is probably the sole unselfish thing he's ever done. Him dying knowing that his breed will be the one to take down Freeza is the perfect way to end that arc.
I absolutely agree that Minus represents a lot of the issues with modern day DB, most notably softening Bardock into a more likable interpretation of the character, which ends up shafting what amounts to decent character work from the original special. It's also the "everything is connected" aspect of storytelling that really grinds my gears. So the idea that Bardock had a level of compassion even before learning of Frieza's decision to destroy everyone not only robs the impact of Bardock's choice to stand against Frieza in the original story, but it also furthers the whole "Goku as special" trope as opposed to a character who actually worked hard to get where he is.
Tai Lung wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:22 pm
Bardock ... pff desperate fanservice .. Is this DB Heroes?
Worse, it's Dragon Ball Super.
I too can't even hear/read the word "Bardock", I think I'm allergic to it. Once I hear it, I feel "fanservice"! Must be a disease. Somebody please find a cure and help us!
• We help! ... Hmm. Always get Autobots out of messes they get into. •
Somebody please find a cure and help us!
