OG Dragon Ball and why one shouldnt mind if people skip it

[dva_raza]

you're really in no spot to be making calls about narrative flow, characterization, etc. from a holistic perspective across the entire original story. That's OK -- you don't have to read or watch it if you don't want, but again, you're really in no position to be making statements you can't back up with any substance at all.

This is what it comes down to for me. Watch what you want, however you want, in whatever order you want, with whatever translation, and to whatever degree of completion you want. But if you're interested in participating in discourse about the work, it helps to actually consume the work. That's why I think there's so much pushback around here against the idea of skipping parts of the story: you're inherently knee-capping whatever you're going to be able to bring to a discussion, which is ostensibly the whole point of a forum.

No, not everyone is obligated to participate in discourse of a work just because they're on a message board for it, but being on a message board kind of gives off the impression that that's what you're here for. And insofar as you are interested in that, well, yeah, you should read/watch the relevant stuff first. It's not gatekeeping to implore, say, students in a class to actually read the material before it's being discussed. That's just an implied, inherent, and integral part of the whole activity.

I know this might've been a general statement not necessarily about me but since the topic did start because of me, for the sake of clarification I wanted to say I never made any calls about narrative flow or characterization in Dragon Ball

I was told it’s illogical for me to not watch DB when it has “All the things that I love from Z” and I responded aspects that are factually not present or different in Dragon Ball. Whatever I expanded on were my thoughts on what I like about Z and Super, never critiques about Dragon Ball

I feel like it's important to mention that because if this thread’s purpose was for people to listen to and discuss a different perspective, not just make assumptions about each other and what prejudiced motive someone probably has for not watching DB, then I think the erroneous idea that I sense from some of the comments here, that I ever made out of place critiques disqualifies whatever contribution I made of how someone who’s not interested in the OG, experiences Z and Super

Zephyr, I came here to discuss specifically DBZ and Super and have done that for the last 4 months. I have real impressions, opinions, feelings questions about it, yes, even without having seen Dragon Ball. If non of that is real because apparently unless I see Dragon Ball then I'm not "qualified" to discuss the two shows that I watched, I certainly didn't know that.

The point I'm trying to make is that saying to someone, "Your stated reasons for not liking/wanting to experience this are factually wrong" is in no way an effective means to get someone excited about watching a cartoon.

So just to note that this discussion DID start with ABED trying to convince. But, after I agreed to watch the latest two arcs, it suddenly turned into smearing.

What the clash is about is me saying that I know DB is not to my taste, and some people not being able to understand or believe that that is the case, despite me repeatetly saying that I’ve seen many random scenes of DB throught the years, and was never interested enough to actually watch it pass those bits.

Abed in particular seems to have an issue with just processing that. From what he has said, he apparently knows if he is interested in a movie or show only after he watched the whole thing, not before. Which is something I never heard of tbh, but to each his own.

But this isn't a matter of taste. This is a matter of people characterizing the original series as 1 thing which is highly inaccurate.

This is really important to clarify.
NOBODY “characterized“ anything until you did. This is : A STRAWMAN you made out of nothing.

Never, at any point in the coversation, did I say or made the implication, that me seeing the series as two separate things is the reason for which I’m not interested in Dragon Ball.

I said I don’t like it because I don’t like what I see. Whether they are separate or not is irrelevant. And the conversation about whether they are characterized separately or not is something you iniciated just the same as many many other replies you made during that conversation, in which you quite literally “respond” to something that was never said. You did this in at least half of your posts there. I’ve never seen someone so randomly be writing things that the other person never even touched on.

So, YES, they ARE a separate series, that is a fact even if it’s just a technicality. And as for being characterized as separate things, I think this transmits an accurate or at least a considerable take on that:

I'd also like to point out that DB and DBZ are two different animes. Regardless of the manga that it is based on. That makes it all the more easier for people to pick and choose which series they would like to start with. And I also think that the tonal shift is clear. Not only does the tone change, but the story and characters as well. Enough to separate the two shows. Even if it were simply marketing, marketing is powerful. Branding is significant and has reach. It's a determining factor for a whole lot of viewers.

But again, I – never - said anything about my reason for being desintrested having to do with a preconception.

And as for the “it isn’t a matter of taste”. It is quite literally a matter of taste and only that. Nothing else.
I don’t need to know whether the series are characterized as separate or not to be able to tell I am liking what I’m seeing or not liking what I’m seeing. And I can’t understand what’s so unbelievable to you about this.
I’ve said a thousand times that simply nothing I saw about Dragon Ball I found: interesting, entertaining or intriguing enough for me to want to see more. You can’t grasp that notion and therefore you “characterize” my disinterest as something other than what it actually is

Something I did say, and it has been ignored among so many other things is:

Many of you have confirmed repeatedly on this thread, that there was a shift in tone in the 2 latest arcs of DB. But when I point at that difference as my reason for finding the (larger part) of DB to be different to Z, (apart from the change of characters), you instantly go back to the narrative of: “NO. They are the same.”

Basically, I get that the latest two arcs as you say are close in tone to Z . And I have said repeatedly that I will be fine in watching that! But then, you go back to “but it’s wrong to not see all”.
So I respond: But the begining has a tone and type of story that I don’t really like. And then you again reply something like “but the tone is different in the latest arcs” . What is the point of this circling? I don’t get it.

Fair enough. Though at this point I care less that they watch it than they just stop making and spreading demonstrably false claims.

I was really lost for words here at first . I can’t think of aything lower that saying these lies so randomly about someone. Like, why are you doing this?
You think it’s no big deal to just say that in this way and literally incite whomever doesn’t have the context, to think that someone (and there’s only one person here apparently) who didn’t watch DB, was being careless with his words and criticizing it, except...that did not happen?
(Same goes for Soppa Saia People, who, also, thinks it’s no big deal to make the completely random affirmation that I made critiques when that’s not the case)
What you are doing IS in fact spreading false claims about another user and it’s sickening.
So to be clear there’s not a single thing that I have said that is “demonstrably false”. I mean the conversation is right there.

Spoiler:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=47073

Believe it or not I am not IN THE LEAST interested in commenting about a show that I genuinely don’t care about, and I never did so.

The only reason for which I even so much as got into a ‘comparative’ conversation about the shows wasn’t because I just randomly went ahead and decided to make comparisons, it was in response to your pushing your idea onto me that - --“everything I love about Z is present in DB” -.
This literal phrase you told me, and the idea of it that you kept pushing, is the motive for me responding to you = which specific things that I like about Z and Super, are objectively not present/different in DB. That was it!

Saying something like Gohan and Vegeta aren’t in Dragon Ball, that’s a fact. Saying I don’t like that, it’s also a fact, that’s neither false nor a critique of Dragon Ball. And this very basic example is pretty much what the whole conversation was about.

Absolutely nothing I mentioned is either a lie, a critique, or even so much an assumtion of anything, to be clear. Any distinction that I indicated is limited to facts, and my feelings about of those facts.
With my source being: The (countless) scenes I have seen from DB, contributions from 3 different users on that very same conversation, and just basic knowledge facts like ‘who’s the MC’.
I never used a single piece of data that is either incorrect or even unknown, and the weight of whatever I said was on just what I like about DBZ and Super.


It’s also worth noting, that I was respectful towards the show and to you, throughout the conversation. And not just that, I also was receptive, and from the begining I had told you that I will watch the latest 2 arcs that you suggested.
But after this, you and Masenko continued making comments about how:
Weird, insane, illogical, nonsensical, silly it is for me to not see it from the begining, with the argument that ‘they are the same show’.
Then, you called me arrogant too, because I said that I know what interests me and what doesn’t and that I’m always accurate with it (I am).

So first – there was NO NEED for any that

And second and most importantly- I had given enough motives for disliking / not liking as much as in Z or Super whatever specific aspect that had been mentioned. There wasn’t at that point , and isn’t now, room for you to keep theorizing into the air about what possible superficial, inaccurate or prejudiced reasons I might have for being desinterested in the show, when my reasons were already explained and non of your assumptions are the case. So now, on this NEW thread, for you to twist the responses I gave into a narrative that I was “spreading false claims ” is pathetic.
I do hate speaking in this way but this is the first time ever someone genuinely pisses me off on this site and I don’t see a reason to even pretend that I’m cool with it, cause it’s not cool at all ABED.



- If I say the characters I like of Z and Super like Gohan, Trunks, Whis and Beerus and Vegeta, are absent in Dragon Ball, that is not a false claim. It’s a fact that I don’t need to watch the OG in order know that.

- If I say every time I catched a ‘humorous’ scene in Dragon Ball, I was disgusted by it, thats not a critique nor it is “inaccurate”, it’s me telling you what my genuine reaction was to that scene.

- Saying that Goku in Z transmited the kind of things that drew me in from seconds of seeing Z and than anything I ever saw of Goku in DB, DIDN’T, that is also, not “spreading false claims”. That is my own experience and I am entitled have it.
I NEVER mentioned anything about Goku as a kid other than –he is not interesting to me- . An absense of interest is not a critique of the character as a whole or an analysis of any sort. I never went into a conversation like that. Just as I might cringe at seeing whatever I did 5 yrs ago I might also not be necessarily interested in SEEING all of Goku’s begining, being aware of the basic facts is more than enough for me.

- When I said that the fights that I saw in DB felt flat to me in comparison to how the fights feel to me in Z and Super, that is also, not making false claims, it’s my personal taste based on what I saw.

Just like when you said: “there is only one good fight in all the Android arc”. That’s your personal taste. (One that by the way completely contradicts your argument about both series being THE SAME, since I would assume if you love the fights in DB then you would also love the ones in Z ..? but nevermind, it’s not like you usually make any sense).

To also note, I had only said they “felt different in style”, until another user there, shared data about something that reaffirmed my own perception of them, thus I took the liberty of using the term “flat” that was brought up, which is really how they feel to me. STILL! I acknowledged that there must be quality fights in DB that I haven’t seen. (Again! The conversation is right there).

it's also really really really silly to list oolong, puar, yajirobe, and chiaotzu as main characters,

Soppa saia people:

I never listed these guys as main characers. That is not a thing that happend and I would appreciate you not making affirmations before understanding whatever words are being said.
“Focus” isn’t synonym of = lead, protagonist or main character.
Focus refers to whatever or whoever is a part of the story’s cohesion or essense at any point. It MAY or MAY NOT refer to a main character.

And that response was to Masenko and ABEDS passive agressive shade throwing at me for not being interested in a show that has, according to them “all the same characters”.
I was pointing out that these characters still being present in Z is irrelevant, what’s relevant is who the focus is on.
The introduction of the new, darker, tragic characters in Z, like Gohan, Vegeta and Trunks pushes the secondary characters of DB (and even some of the main ones like Roshi), OUT of the focus, even if they are still technically part of the gang, meaning they are not what makes the main cohesion of the dynamic and therefore it becomes different.

I don't think the point being made by anyone was that you have to start DB at the beginning.

...You're kidding right? You said it in several posts. After I had agreed to watch the latest 2 arcs you went back to the idea that it’s wrong and that you can't understand why would someone not want to watch the whole show and just how insane and illogical that is.

As for other people, at least most here seem to be sharing that same thought, so ..no. I would NOT say that is "not a point made by anyone", I'd say that is actually the point made by (almost) everybody.

the cost of going back to the start is almost 0, I don't know why anyone fights it.

This is concerning because I’ve replied to that question around 20 times by now so I don’t know how you could still possibly not know. Also, what a strange phrasing.
I’m not “fighting” anything. I don’t have some deep desire to watch some show that I’m FIGHTING against. I genuinely didn’t like what I saw and that’s not even something I can intentionally choose.

A trailer for a movie is not remotely the same thing as 1 scene from an entire 153 episode series. It's FAR easier to sell a tone and a feel of a 2 hour film than it is to a long running serialized show that changes tone and even genres over the course of over 100 episodes. It's FAR easier to sell a tone and a feel of a 2 hour film than it is to a long running serialized show

If you are unable to catch a piece of something on TV or anywhere else and make a choice based on your taste and on basic sense or perception whether that’s something you’d like to see more of, or not, then …alright? But that is not the case for me. I’ve discovered and gotten hooked on countless films and series, as randomly as I got hooked on DBZ and Super (from seeing a moment of it). I liked, so kept watching and never regretted it. - I was NOT hooked on DB from any of many many scenes that I saw of it along the years. Simple.

Because they can fly? That's also present in DB.

If the only disticntion you see between the fights in DB and Z/Super is flying then I guess you didn’t pay enough attention those 10 times you said you’ve watched the series.
No ABED. I did not mean “because they can fly” when I said the fights in Z have evolved to higher levels.

They're the same character. I don't understand your distinction. It's just a sequel series.

I understand he is the same character. I was responding to your question about why I prefer Piccolo in Z and I said it’s because his role in the gang making a contrast is interesting and fun for me personally, while his role as a villan in DB is no something that particularly attracts me.

(With Vegeta is exactly the opposite for example). He is by FAR more absorbing and entertaining as a full on villian (to me) than part of the group good guy in Super, just my opinion obviously.

A discover that has no dramatic weight if you don't experience the character prior

This is the problem here. You are in no position to make that affirmation because since you DID see the OG, you can’t possibly know to which extend the “dramatic weight” or “impact” will happen for a person who didn’t and even if what you are saying is based on friends of yours who told you that, the fact that I certainly didn’t need to see the original to feel the impact, as I know other people who didn’t either, that’s proof that your statement isn’t a rule. This is not mathematics nor statistics (unless you do have statistics, then you can provide them).But you can’t make determinations that “x is needed to get a y result” in terms of how one recieves a story. A well made sequel makes the original optional and you would be surprised how much impact someone can feel just with the basic context they have, and seeing great written and directed scene even without having seen Goku’s trajectory as a whole, one can get the full perception of what was intended.

 

And I did answer your question about having stopped watching a series. It's not the same thing as not watching something from the beginning. A fundamental difference is that if a show falls off in quality because of any number of issues, including an actor leaving, or a character being killed off (a situation implied by my previous post), then there's a risk the show won't get better after a while. It might but most likely won't. However, if you are talking about a show you know you enjoy, you know for a fact that the show will get better and at what point you enjoy it. it's comparing an actuality and a possibility.

You replying to your own version of the question isn’t “answering the question”. I never mentioned anything about “risks” or the “quality decline” . I’m talking exclusively about when someone stops following a series because of changes in characters and story. Just that. There is not a decline in quality.

And the point I was making with that is that a person actively choosing to avoid a part of a show they like, (and in my case it’s not even the same show, it’s a sequel) that has no affection to the part they already saw and liked.
If the distinction you’re gonna make is that in my case I need “context”, I’ve said that there isn’t a context that I need to understand anything better.
And I’m not going to watch something that’s not interesting to me in the least, just to obtain context I don’t even need.


I enjoy Z and Super perfectly and there is nothing missing from my experience.

Your insistance that there is, and the fact that you truly seem to believe that you know this better than myself is the motive of this “difference of opinion”.
The fact that you told MetaMoss there that this is not an issue about taste when actually that is literally the ONLY thing this is about makes it clear that you are seeing things from a wrong perspective.

The only reason I can see for not wanting to watch DB is if you are only interested in super flashy fights, space travel, alien lords, mystical creatures, cyborgs, planets going boom, standard attacks that put the planet in danger, people flying at top speed that you cannot even see, and power levels that would be considered by some weirdos as universal, solar or whatever.
DB is more down to Earth in that regard, while Z is really unfathomable, and DBS, well...

I'm always surprised when somebody doesn't want to see how Goku's story began. Specially when it's so funny and cute, and without even knowing it, it does touch upon subjects that are so abundant in Z, like zenkai boosts, saiya-tail, ohzaru transformation. But it's fair to like Dragonball only for the outrageously outstanding fights.

If those elements are the “only reason” you could see for someone to only like the show parting from Z that seems like an oddly empty way of viewing something I assume you are a fan of.

I know you’re talking in general terms but speaking for myself, I gave several different reasons that have nothing to do with those things you mentioned. Substantially what attracted me the most about DBZ are the characters and the story. And for anybody to be more interested in a particular theme and not being interested in another theme isn’t better nor worse, it’s taste.

Your question about why someone wouldn’t want to see Gokus beigning, it’s not that they don’t WANT to see his story, it’s just if obtaining that contex means sitting through a show that is boring to you, then there is absolutley no reason to do that. The only reason to watch something should be to enjoy, not to fill yourself up with “context” you don’t really feel that you need.
You like GT. I am asuming that includes the first arc., so that can pefectly explain you enjoying Dragon Ball. But for anyone who’s bored by the more comedic adventure type narrative, it’s simply that. The show has a different tone. The tragic characters in Z shaped the story's more serious tone and people mught be only attracted to that and not to the original.
To call anybody who likes an epic fight a weirdo is basically going after someone else's taste.

MUST both read the manga DB and DBZ manga and watch the animes, entirely. Otherwise they would be like... posers.

LMAO this was pretty funny. A “poser”.
A poser of what man? Being a fan of a show or story is internal and individual.

The topic of this thread isn’t about “what qualifications you need to be an authentic Dragon Ball nerd, not a poser”

It’s an invitation to seeing things outside of that mentality.



Here is a contrasting, and ONE (out of all the comments here) mature sentiment to all of this.

When I openly joined the queer community I learned of the importance of not gatekeeping one's experiences. I like to try and apply that open-mindedness to other things, especially hobbies. As such, I've taken to taking the position that one's take is not really for me to judge. Fandom is a lot like life I'm general because it grows and evolves from various different events in one's life. As such, if one doesn't care for one part of a franchise--even if that means not even watching it--I can understand their desire. Life is so fleeting, it can be difficult to find the time to watch the specific episodes and films one is really interested in, let alone those that one is not interested it.

Nobody is anybody to determine how entertainment will be or let alone should be experienced by another person.
Entertainment is experienced in a way that doesn’t have rules or particular steps to it and that experience is totally internal, even intimate. The belief that a fan of Z and Super must also like or be interested in DB by default, it’s obviously false, otherwise there wouldn’t be such cases.
The argument that it’s the same as watching only the latest 2 thirds of a film, is inaccurate.
Dragon Ball is not the same show with the proof of it that I liked everything about Z from the first moments of seeing it and I loved everything about Super from the first moments of seeing it and I didn’t like absolutely anything about Dragon Ball from countless scenes that I saw of it (at least not enough for me to want to see more than those moments), and that could be the case for many other people on whom you’re theorizing on in this thread right now with your assumptions that those people are basically airheads who don’t care about the story and only want “flashy fights” and “planets going boom”, as if that was all that there was to DBZ.

I’m asuming all of those who watched the first series, did so because you wanted to. Whether you were interested from the start or you wanted to get context after having watched Z, but you watched it because you actually were interested. If someone isn’t that’s that.
You are not necessarily having a better experience watching all that you want than another person who also watches all that they want, even if for them that means less. And one's experience regarding this is factually and literally all that matters.

[ABED]

This is the problem here. You are in no position to make that affirmation because since you DID see the OG, you can’t possibly know to which extend the “dramatic weight” or “impact” will happen for a person who didn’t

That's false since I saw DBZ first. It doesn't hold dramatic weight. How do I know? 1) I remember what it was like seeing it without that context, and 2) by simple logic. If there's a plot twist and the audience doesn't have the relevant context of what came before, then the reveal doesn't function at all. How could it?

..You're kidding right? You said it in several posts.

Maybe my bad for not communicating it clearer, I was saying that anyone can jump into the story at any point. It's not as much of a thing these days with streaming but people used to see shows starting with some random episode because what were the chances of them seeing the first one first? But with streaming you have easy access to the very beginning.

The show has a different tone.

Again, it changes over time which goes back to one of my previous points that the show changes tone. Most of your critiques can be easily dismissed by the fact that you haven't seen it so you don't know that. You aren't in any position to judge it. If you actually bothered to watch you would know this.

Dragon Ball is not the same show with the proof

That's not proof. It's the same show, just earlier. And you simply don't like it. Fine if you don't like it, taste is subjective, but it's objectively true that it's the same show. How do we know? The manga itself never changed its title

The tragic characters in Z shaped the story's more serious tone and people mught be only attracted to that and not to the original.

Yes, this super serious tragic show where the characters are named after food and undergarments, and one is a pink taffy monster, and one of the wise martial arts masters is a catfish who thinks elementary school level puns are the height of comedy. The reason most people give for enjoying DBZ is because it's fun and over the top and cool, not because it's "dark" or "tragic" or "serious". This cannot be stated enough, DB is not one thing. It shifts tones continually. But sure, you didn't characterize DB as something. I created a strawman. And if it's the more serious tone people are attracted to, DB has that in spades. And Super which we both enjoy has a character Goku is convinced is among the strongest whose name means "big nipples". Every DB series is not one single thing. There's a mix of serious and silliness. It's what makes it what it is.

And we aren't arguing you should like early DB! No one is doing that. Like what you like and don't watch what you don't want to, but stop making out DB to be something it isn't.

I never mentioned anything about “risks” or the “quality decline” . I’m talking exclusively about when someone stops following a series because of changes in characters and story. Just that. There is not a decline in quality.

One follows the other. If the characters aren't part of the story, it's lesser for it.

[dva_raza]

That's not proof. It's the same show, just earlier. And you simply don't like it. Fine if you don't like it, taste is subjective, but it's objectively true that it's the same show. How do we know? The manga itself never changed its title

I'm PRETTY sure this has been stipulated ABED.

Me:

Z isn’t a different season, it’s literally another series. I know the story has no separation in the manga but it does in the anime.

Myvisionity:

Dva_raza is correct about DB and DBZ being two different series. It's an oversimplification, but accurate. To say that it was completely arbitrary or that things don't change is erroneous.

So in case it's not clear enough, - YES - the story DOES NOT change in the manga. It does have a separation in the anime with the proof of that being the fact that the first episde of Z is called season 1 episode 1 and not Dragon Ball season 10 episode 1.

And again. This is irrelevant for me and the only reason this was being discussed is cause you iniciated it.

And we aren't arguing you should like early DB! No one is doing that.

I never said you did.

but stop making out DB to be something it isn't.

Never did this.
It's what my whole post is about.


Anyway, I'm done with you ABED, thank you.

[ABED]

Wow, just wow.

I'm nonplussed. What the hell just happened?

Long story short folks, like what you want, start where you want (even though I don't know why someone wouldn't want to see the beginning if they know they like where it goes), but at the very least understand that if you reductively claim the stories are something other than what they are, that is where people are gonna take issue.

[MyVisionity]

It's the same show, just earlier. And you simply don't like it. Fine if you don't like it, taste is subjective, but it's objectively true that it's the same show. How do we know? The manga itself never changed its title.

That's the manga, not the show. It's two different shows based on one story.

Yes, this super serious tragic show where the characters are named after food and undergarments, and one is a pink taffy monster, and one of the wise martial arts masters is a catfish who thinks elementary school level puns are the height of comedy. The reason most people give for enjoying DBZ is because it's fun and over the top and cool, not because it's "dark" or "tragic" or "serious". This cannot be stated enough, DB is not one thing. It shifts tones continually. But sure, you didn't characterize DB as something. I created a strawman. And if it's the more serious tone people are attracted to, DB has that in spades. And Super which we both enjoy has a character Goku is convinced is among the strongest whose name means "big nipples". Every DB series is not one single thing. There's a mix of serious and silliness. It's what makes it what it is.

This is misleading. The tone shifts forwards, but it doesn't shift backwards. DB gradually becomes darker and more serious, to the point where DBZ feels like a different show from DB. Yes, DBZ has silly and humorous elements. That doesn't mean it isn't overall a darker and more serious show than DB. To say that it is simply a mix of serious and silly that shifts back and forth is false.

And that includes the Boo arc which despite its increase in silliness, still manages to remain overall dark and serious.

[ABED]

But it DOES shift between light and dark. The Piccolo Daimao arc is very grim, whereas the next arc is FAR lighter. There also needs to be a conversation about terms like "dark" because DB is never dark. There are grimmer moments but it's still an overall light and fun show. "Dark" is such an overused phrase that it feels like it's lost most of it's meaning. A story where two of the main characters are fight as a candy is in no way a dark story. I say it's the opposite of what you claim. The final arc is very silly and fun, but with some grimmer moments to help give it some sense of grounding and stakes. The Vegeta/Saiyan arc is darker in comparison. When all the death and destruction are undone with a wish, and there are no lasting consequences, it's not a dark story.

That's the manga, not the show. It's two different shows based on one story.

In a VERY literal sense, they are two different shows, but it's the same story told over the course of the two shows. The manga doesn't change the title, and the anime is a VERY accurate adaptation. It's really just the manga with filler. The plots, dialog, characters, even images are pretty much the same.

And it's always been acknowledged how much DB changes over time, but it's still Dragon Ball in the same way people change a lot over time while remaining the same person.

[jjgp1112]

That's not proof. It's the same show, just earlier. And you simply don't like it. Fine if you don't like it, taste is subjective, but it's objectively true that it's the same show. How do we know? The manga itself never changed its title

I'm PRETTY sure this has been stipulated ABED.

Me:

Z isn’t a different season, it’s literally another series. I know the story has no separation in the manga but it does in the anime.

Myvisionity:

Dva_raza is correct about DB and DBZ being two different series. It's an oversimplification, but accurate. To say that it was completely arbitrary or that things don't change is erroneous.

So in case it's not clear enough, - YES - the story DOES NOT change in the manga. It does have a separation in the anime with the proof of that being the fact that the first episde of Z is called season 1 episode 1 and not Dragon Ball season 10 episode 1.

And again. This is irrelevant for me and the only reason this was being discussed is cause you iniciated it.

And we aren't arguing you should like early DB! No one is doing that.

I never said you did.

but stop making out DB to be something it isn't.

Never did this.
It's what my whole post is about.


Anyway, I'm done with you ABED, thank you.

The central problem here isn't that you don't like, it's that you haven't given the entire first third of the series a chance just based on assumptions and isolated clips. And your strongest reason for this is an arbitrary split that Toei created for marketing and scamming purposes.

Shit Cha La era DBZ bears more resemblance to DB than We Gotta Powa era to Cha La. DB and DBZ are functionally the same show right down to the music.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I will laugh so hard if the YOU GOTTA WATCH IT MAN crowd got their wish to strongarm dva_raza to watch it in its entirety... only for him to genuinely hate it and then you got a new hater instead of a new fan.

[ABED]

I will laugh so hard if the YOU GOTTA WATCH IT MAN crowd got their wish to strongarm dva_raza to watch it in its entirety... only for him to genuinely hate it and then you got a new hater instead of a new fan.

It's less about getting people to watch it than it is mischaracterizing it. Watch it or don't, but people have gotta stop saying DB is one thing and DBZ is another. No one is being strong armed.

I get it, when you watch DBZ it settles into a feel and a structure and introduces a few very important characters, most notably Gohan and Vegeta, so watching from the beginning can feel jarring. But mostly that's a feeling of it not being what someone is used to. With the exception of several characters, what people love and associate with DBZ is there in varying degrees from pretty much the beginning. The rest is introduced overtime. Perhaps it's simply not fast enough for some. The insistence that DB is all like the Pilaf arc is disingenuous.

[dva_raza]

The central problem here isn't that you don't like, it's that you haven't given the entire first third of the series a chance just based on assumptions and isolated clips. And your strongest reason for this is an arbitrary split that Toei created for marketing and scamming purposes.

Jesus Christ, again, I never said that people have a problem with me not liking it

I think I was clear enough in my post, that the problem I have is with people saying that I "made demostrably false claims" or made assumptions. And you are doing it right now again!

Absolutely nothing I mentioned is either a lie, a critique, or even so much an assumtion of anything, to be clear. Any distinction that I indicated is limited to facts, and my feelings about of those facts.
With my source being: The (countless) scenes I have seen from DB, contributions from 3 different users on that very same conversation, and just basic knowledge facts like ‘who’s the MC’.
I never used a single piece of data that is either incorrect or even unknown, and the weight of whatever I said was on just what I like about DBZ and Super.

- If I say the characters I like of Z and Super like Gohan, Trunks, Whis and Beerus and Vegeta, are absent in Dragon Ball, that is not a false claim. It’s a fact that I don’t need to watch the OG in order know that.

- If I say every time I catched a ‘humorous’ scene in Dragon Ball, I was disgusted by it, thats not a critique nor it is “inaccurate”, it’s me telling you what my genuine reaction was to that scene.

- Saying that Goku in Z transmited the kind of things that drew me in from seconds of seeing Z and than anything I ever saw of Goku in DB, DIDN’T, that is also, not “spreading false claims”. That is my own experience and I am entitled have it.
I NEVER mentioned anything about Goku as a kid other than –he is not interesting to me- . An absense of interest is not a critique of the character as a whole or an analysis of any sort. I never went into a conversation like that. Just as I might cringe at seeing whatever I did 5 yrs ago I might also not be necessarily interested in SEEING all of Goku’s begining, being aware of the basic facts is more than enough for me.

- When I said that the fights that I saw in DB felt flat to me in comparison to how the fights feel to me in Z and Super, that is also, not making false claims, it’s my personal taste based on what I saw.

Just like when you said: “there is only one good fight in all the Android arc”. That’s your personal taste. (One that by the way completely contradicts your argument about both series being THE SAME, since I would assume if you love the fights in DB then you would also love the ones in Z ..? but nevermind, it’s not like you usually make any sense).

To also note, I had only said they “felt different in style”, until another user there, shared data about something that reaffirmed my own perception of them, thus I took the liberty of using the term “flat” that was brought up, which is really how they feel to me. STILL! I acknowledged that there must be quality fights in DB that I haven’t seen. (Again! The conversation is right there).

I'm ASKING you please, to stop saying that I did things that I never did.
If you can point out at any "assumption" that I made in that other converstion, go ahead, otherwise please stop

[ABED]

You claimed they are two different series and you make this point

So in case it's not clear enough, - YES - the story DOES NOT change in the manga. It does have a separation in the anime with the proof of that being the fact that the first episde of Z is called season 1 episode 1 and not Dragon Ball season 10 episode 1.

And again. This is irrelevant for me and the only reason this was being discussed is cause you iniciated it.

As though all you were pointing out is there was a show called Dragon Ball that had 153 episodes and DBZ which had 291 episodes. But that's not true. Your point was they were fundamentally different. Yes, we all understand that there are two shows, but the manga doesn't separate them and the anime is the manga with some irrelevant filler thrown in to pad out time. By the end of DB, with the exception of Gohan and Vegeta, it's indistinguishable from DBZ. You were arguing against a point no one here made. If you're getting angry about things like this, that's on you. Maybe take a step back because none of this is worth the aggravation.

[Gilby1385]

Wow, just wow.

I'm nonplussed. What the hell just happened?

Long story short folks, like what you want, start where you want (even though I don't know why someone wouldn't want to see the beginning if they know they like where it goes), but at the very least understand that if you reductively claim the stories are something other than what they are, that is where people are gonna take issue.

Amen.

[capsulecorp]

I ain't reading all that, I'm happy for you though or sorry that happened.

More seriously, OG Dragon Ball is honestly quite a bit better than DBZ, in my opinion, especially as far as the anime is concerned! But, I love them both. I mean, at the end of the day, they're the same story, the distinction between DB and DBZ is false, and really just marketing.

[ABED]

Just like when you said: “there is only one good fight in all the Android arc”. That’s your personal taste. (One that by the way completely contradicts your argument about both series being THE SAME, since I would assume if you love the fights in DB then you would also love the ones in Z ..? but nevermind, it’s not like you usually make any sense).

I just want to make a rebuttal to this point - the difference is execution. There are commonalities in the way the fights go down in DB and DBZ, but it's not a contradiction to say I don't find the fights later on as interesting because the difference comes down to execution, and after a certain point, Toriyama's skill at coming up with compelling fight choreography wasn't as sharp. The impact wasn't as visceral and bone crunching or as physically exhausting as I like them to be.

Fair enough that I was making a subjective point about how I saw the fights, but it's not a contradiction to say I don't think they are as good as before. One was an overall appraisal whereas the example of the fights in the Cell arc was more specific.

DBZ declines around the end of the Freeza arc. Demonstrating the increasing scale became harder and harder and after a while boiled down to the audience understanding that A is stronger than B because C said they were. It's all expository dialog.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

That's the manga, not the show. It's two different shows based on one story.

A distinction without a difference.

[MetaMoss]

Your point was they were fundamentally different.

Was it? I'll I'm seeing from dva_rasa is that they see OG DB as being different enough from Z for them to not be interested.

And then you're surprised and confused that they're pissed off at you for exaggerating their position, and I really don't know what to tell you.

[ABED]

Your point was they were fundamentally different.

Was it? I'll I'm seeing from dva_rasa is that they see OG DB as being different enough from Z for them to not be interested.

And then you're surprised and confused that they're pissed off at you for exaggerating their position, and I really don't know what to tell you.

That might be fair had I not seen times where people keep implying or outright saying DB as a whole is just its earlier gag manga parts. I also might think it was fair had their logic not involved gems like "you said the fights are the same but said you didn't like theses fights. Why are you contradicting yourself?" or essentially claim young Goku is a different character from his adult self because it's convenient for their argument. it doesn't come off as informed or well-reasoned.

If it simply boiled down to stuff like it's missing the characters I like or the choregraphy in most of DB isn't the same as it became later, or the greater emphasis on sexual humor, I get it even if I don't agree. But to claim DB and DBZ are two fundamentally different shows which is exactly what was being claimed is erroneous.

If you don't watch enough of something to get an accurate picture, you're not in a position to accurately evaluate it. Even if you have seen clips they're out of context and you wouldn't be making the argument that judging whether you would like a movie based on a two-minute trailer is the same thing as a few out of context clips of an entire show.

And while I certainly understand in a world with tons of options and limited time, that writing something off after a relatively small sample. It makes complete sense. However, we're on a forum celebrating Dragon Ball. The people on here have a more than passing enjoyment of the franchise and a specific version at that. Then there's the issue of like most of us, people like DBZ and probably started with it. If you enjoy where something winds up, I don't get the huge reticence to not go back and give it the old college try and more than even the first arc.

[Zephyr]

Zephyr, I came here to discuss specifically DBZ and Super and have done that for the last 4 months.

That's totally fair. More power to you.

I have real impressions, opinions, feelings questions about it, yes, even without having seen Dragon Ball. If non of that is real because apparently unless I see Dragon Ball then I'm not "qualified" to discuss the two shows that I watched, I certainly didn't know that.

...but this is not what I was trying to say. Of course your impressions, opinions, feelings, and so on are real and valid.

My post was primarily concerned with:

why I think there's so much pushback around here against the idea of skipping parts of the story

But I also said:

Watch what you want, however you want, in whatever order you want, with whatever translation, and to whatever degree of completion you want.

I'm certainly not going to tell you what to watch. You do you.

I've never participated in a discussion of Z or Super with you, so I can't say how, if at all, not having read/watched the pre-Raditz portion of the story has impacted your impressions of characters in Z and Super who existed before Raditz, or of plot threads that began before Raditz, or of thematic components that began before Raditz, or of callbacks within Z and Super to things from before Raditz. It's hard to argue that not having read/watched the beginning of story wouldn't impact those impressions. But they're still real impressions, and they're still really yours. Have them, share them, discuss them. It's fine.

As per the thread's title, no, nobody should "mind" if someone wants to skip the beginning of the story. But users here would be remiss to not suggest one does the contrary. But, again, one is free to reject the suggestions for any reason, and still discuss things. But, again again, it's not for nothing that the suggestions are made in the first place.

[MetaMoss]

But to claim DB and DBZ are two fundamentally different shows which is exactly what was being claimed is erroneous.

Again, was it? Where exactly is dva_rasa making this claim? I'm seeing that they're making a distinction between DB and Z, but not that they're fundamentally different. If they made a claim to that effect earlier on in the conversation, now they're certainly trying to get you to understand that they don't see it that way.

But what's so wrong with distinguishing between DB and Z? While they may be together one single story, you also have to consider:
- They're marketed separately
- The entire existence of Kai
- They have separate philosophies on how they adapt the source manga

That last point I'm not pulling out of nowhere: an interview back in 2016 with Kazuhiko Torishima had him discuss how it was decided to replace the original anime producer because they weren't considered up to snuff to adapt the more serious tone that the series was going in, and that the new producer was the one who came up with the idea of what became the DBZ anime.

Even if you didn't have that prior context of the production side, I for one always had the impression that the DB and DBZ animes have different feels from each other, slight enough that I couldn't quite put my finger on it, but there all the same. Having read the manga, DBZ certainly feels like a "tighter" adaption than DB. Z may have more filler, but the filler it does have does more to stay reverent to the manga content, even if contradicted later.

[ABED]

- They have separate philosophies on how they adapt the source manga

I'm not sure what you mean. Both are very faithful adaptations with lots of padding. DB has less than DBZ in large part due to it having a much greater head start before the anime.

You bring up the marketing but that's all that was - marketing. It's a way to make more money. DB was several years in so why would they spend more money on something several years old? The way you get more money is to relaunch it. It's pure marketing. Good on them, but that doesn't make it an independent story. Would you mind keying me into the separate philosophies portion of the interview because that's a long read. And you say that they aren't saying they're fundamentally different, but then go on to argue how they are fundamentally different.

This meant he was missing the more serious tone we had developed in the Dragon Ball manga. For instance, when I saw the scene in the anime where Goku pierces Piccolo I realized I couldn't work with this producer.

From the interview - he's talking about the Piccolo Daimao arc. The guy was let go prior to DBZ. And as it states in the interview, the people they got for the "more serious" portion of DB weren't changing DB, they were better at adapting what Toriyama was already doing.

DB isn't one thing. That part of the story was a constantly evolving and it's around the time of the Saiyan arc that he settled into a formula that he had previously established with Piccolo Daimao. Saying DB and DBZ have different feels is somewhat true but doesn't tell the entire story. The supposed singular tone that DBZ is known and praised for started much earlier.

Z may have more filler, but the filler it does have does more to stay reverent to the manga content, even if contradicted later.

For instance? The filler tends to be more intertwined in DBZ but I don't think that's necessarily a good thing.

Sure, make the distinction. There's some truth to it, but it's not altogether true.