Frieza now stronger than Beerus?

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Re: Frieza now stronger than Beerus?

Post by BagetaSama » Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:52 pm

miguelnuva1 wrote: Sun Oct 23, 2022 3:33 pm Super Hero pretty much confirms Beerus is still stronger.
But Super Hero doesn't take into account the events of the last two arcs in the manga, it doesn't make any mention of them, is explicitly treating Jiren as the top dog still, and the movie was literally written years before Black Freeza became a thing in the manga.

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Re: Frieza now stronger than Beerus?

Post by Grimlock » Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:17 am

But that's precisely why we have this little thing established in 2016 called "Dragon Ball Room", right? So that people can get together to plan things ahead...? So that we can have little to no contradiction, plot points and/or entire events being left out...? Why at the end of 2022 are we still using the "it was written before" poor excuse?
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Re: Frieza now stronger than Beerus?

Post by Goku9001 » Wed Nov 23, 2022 6:06 am

Because the executive producer over at the "Dragon Ball Room" confirmed that the events of Super Hero and the events of the manga are two separate stories. They are completely right in the fact that Black Frieza was not a thing so we have no idea if he's even relevant in Super Hero or that he would be implicitly compared to the GoDs like Jiren and Broly were.

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Re: Frieza now stronger than Beerus?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Wed Nov 23, 2022 3:52 pm

Super Hero was written before Black Frieza but I find it interesting Broly is hiding from Frieza. The manga is also about to do a prequel to Super Hero so maybe they're going to tie it in together.

Super Hero was written far enough ahead of the manga that tying them together is easier on the staff.

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Re: Frieza now stronger than Beerus?

Post by Grimlock » Wed Nov 23, 2022 5:19 pm

Goku9001 wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 6:06 amBecause the executive producer over at the "Dragon Ball Room" confirmed that the events of Super Hero and the events of the manga are two separate stories.
And what is that even supposed to mean? That the manga sagas will forever be manga sagas? That they didn't and won't happen in the anime or movie continuities?
Goku9001 wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 6:06 amThey are completely right in the fact that Black Frieza was not a thing so we have no idea if he's even relevant in Super Hero
He should be. Just as Vegeta mentions the Golden form in Dragon Ball Super Broly, one of the main factors for Goku and Vegeta to be training right now is to be prepared for when they face Freeza again, mentioning his latest recolor and what he did at the end of Granola saga.

"Was not a thing" is not really an excuse anymore, Toyotaro should have presented his ideas and that he would give Freeza another form as well as Toriyama should have presented his idea to set a movie two years after the last one (involving a scene with Goku and Vegeta on Beerus planet) for everyone in the "Dragon Ball Room". Everyone involved needs to converse with each other and have at the very least two or three "stories" already planned ahead to avoid this annoyance. That's their sole purpose and job... Allegedly.
Last edited by Grimlock on Wed Nov 23, 2022 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Frieza now stronger than Beerus?

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Nov 23, 2022 5:31 pm

Grimlock wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 5:19 pm Everyone involved needs to converse with each other and have at the very least two or three "stories" already planned ahead to avoid this annoyance. That's their sole purpose and job.
I think it's worth pointing out / reminding you (and everyone): that might be something you personally want, but clearly isn't something the production team is particularly interested in, even with their stated development of an overall interdepartmental production committee.

I understand it may be frustrating from your own personal fandom perspective, but they're under no obligation to run their business the way you're dictating it here with strict, long-term story minutia consistency. On top of that, if the products are meeting the success levels they're setting for themselves, they're further under no obligation to do things differently.

Personally speaking, I'm only slightly irked by it, and then let it immediately roll by in favor of other things I'm more interested/invested in. It just doesn't matter that much to me, particularly since I'm already not that heavily invested in any of the post-1997 stories and how "real" or "true" they are, especially considering how much of a consistency mess it's been that whole time.
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Re: Frieza now stronger than Beerus?

Post by Grimlock » Wed Nov 23, 2022 6:17 pm

VegettoEX wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 5:31 pmbut they're under no obligation to run their business the way you're dictating it here with strict, long-term story minutia consistency.
I'm not "dictating", that's what should be expected from a committee created to come up with projects. If they aren't interested in this very important part of the process of coming up with new projects, then why was it created in the first place? If Dragon Ball is still supposed to run the way it was by Toriyama, doing things on the fly, then I can't see any reason for "Dragon Ball Room" existence.

Or am I wrong and we have these people getting together just for the fun of it and it's okay that way?
VegettoEX wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 5:31 pmOn top of that, if the products are meeting the success levels they're setting for themselves, they're further under no obligation to do things differently.
Which is a huge problem... They make lots of money with every installment they release which lead them to think everything's fine the way it is... And probably is, I keep putting narrative/story above all else, but I need to learn once and for all that only profit and other shallow stuff (like "my favorite character got to shine? Then nothing else matters, this is great!) is what truly matter at the end of the day.
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Re: Frieza now stronger than Beerus?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Wed Nov 23, 2022 6:46 pm

I don't work for a writer's room so I don't know the inner workings but if the Dragonball room is anything loke the Star Wars writing room profit is most important and they'll mash what ever they want to try and make it concrete but they haven't plan out more than one atroy arc at a time.

It would not suprise me if Black Frieza wasn't created but 3 or 4 chapters before he appeared.

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Re: Frieza now stronger than Beerus?

Post by theherodjl » Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:16 pm

Grimlock wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 6:17 pmOr am I wrong and we have these people getting together just for the fun of it and it's okay that way?
Um.......yes? I for one, don't believe that I have ever watched an episode of DB or picked up the manga to specifically look for a banger of literary devices or inspiration for writing realistic characters in a crime thriller story. DB, to me, can just be an escape from things that are too real or serious: an appeal to our basic sense of just wanting to see fun & exciting battles of superhuman dudes doing space-Karate and launching massive energy beams at each other. Does is really matter that much that we have such an intricate, deep, and well-planned out story behind that, especially when Toriyama as well as Toei never intended for DB to even remotely approach Shakespearean-levels of storytelling?
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Re: Frieza now stronger than Beerus?

Post by Goku9001 » Thu Nov 24, 2022 6:04 am

Grimlock wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 5:19 pm
Goku9001 wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 6:06 amBecause the executive producer over at the "Dragon Ball Room" confirmed that the events of Super Hero and the events of the manga are two separate stories.
And what is that even supposed to mean? That the manga sagas will forever be manga sagas? That they didn't and won't happen in the anime or movie continuities?
Goku9001 wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 6:06 amThey are completely right in the fact that Black Frieza was not a thing so we have no idea if he's even relevant in Super Hero
He should be. Just as Vegeta mentions the Golden form in Dragon Ball Super Broly, one of the main factors for Goku and Vegeta to be training right now is to be prepared for when they face Freeza again, mentioning his latest recolor and what he did at the end of Granola saga.

"Was not a thing" is not really an excuse anymore, Toyotaro should have presented his ideas and that he would give Freeza another form as well as Toriyama should have presented his idea to set a movie two years after the last one (involving a scene with Goku and Vegeta on Beerus planet) for everyone in the "Dragon Ball Room". Everyone involved needs to converse with each other and have at the very least two or three "stories" already planned ahead to avoid this annoyance. That's their sole purpose and job... Allegedly.
No. What it means in a production sense is that Super Hero was written as a direct continuation of Broly whereas the manga continues Broly with its own additional stories that were never factored into the original script for Super Hero. This was something the executive producer of Dragon Ball Room stated. The original script was in development as Broly was being developed so Toyotaro had likely not thought too far ahead.

Whatever changes Toyotaro made don't really matter. Super Hero occurs 3 years after the events of Broly so there's enough of a timespan where Toriyama and Toyotaro can adapt changes to suit the manga if need be. It's because of this that Super Hero as we know now doesn't have to affirm to the manga. It can act as its own thing because there's enough freedom for the authors to adapt the story for the manga.

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Re: Frieza now stronger than Beerus?

Post by Grimlock » Thu Nov 24, 2022 1:39 pm

theherodjl wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:16 pmUm.......yes? I for one, don't believe that I have ever watched an episode of DB or picked up the manga to specifically look for a banger of literary devices or inspiration for writing realistic characters in a crime thriller story. DB, to me, can just be an escape from things that are too real or serious: an appeal to our basic sense of just wanting to see fun & exciting battles of superhuman dudes doing space-Karate and launching massive energy beams at each other. Does is really matter that much that we have such an intricate, deep, and well-planned out story behind that, especially when Toriyama as well as Toei never intended for DB to even remotely approach Shakespearean-levels of storytelling?
I, for one, don't believe anyone said anything about "banger of literary devices or inspiration for writing realistic characters in a crime thriller story" or "Shakespearean-levels of storytelling". What I am saying is you can have your "escape from things that are too real or serious: an appeal to our basic sense of just wanting to see fun & exciting battles of superhuman dudes doing space-Karate and launching massive energy beams at each other" while still having a good crafted story supporting your needs (note: "good" is not synonym/does not stand for "Shakespearean-levels of storytelling", in case that much still isn't clear). Asking for some consistency is not the same as asking for Dragon Ball to have a "deep, intricate" story. But to plan things in advance is a basic behavior each and every writer should have. Even basic, simple stories benefit from that.

But don't take my word for it, it was said "Dragon Ball Room" was created to come up with future projects. So no, I doubt I'm wrong. And it's definitely not okay to have these "separated/standalone stories". It's not okay to see Goku in Dragon Ball Super Super Hero in "gag" scenes with Vegeta during training when they should be worried sick about Freeza, his recolor and that he easily defeated them in their strongest forms just a year prior (and it's also not okay to see Goku from Dragon Ball Super Super Hero not even mentioning anything related to his Saiyans origins too, now that he finally remembers it. That should've caused something on Goku. But I digress).
Goku9001 wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 6:04 amNo. What it means in a production sense is that Super Hero was written as a direct continuation of Broly whereas the manga continues Broly with its own additional stories that were never factored into the original script for Super Hero. This was something the executive producer of Dragon Ball Room stated. The original script was in development as Broly was being developed so Toyotaro had likely not thought too far ahead.
I question that decision. Shouldn't they have started to think of Dragon Ball Super Super Hero after the release of Dragon Ball Super Broly? Somewhere in 2018 or 2019, they could have gathered together to think about what to do next. Why would they start production for the next movie even before the current movie was released? Why wouldn't they at some point talk to Toyotaro about this new saga he's about to start/doing it and his ideas for the next one? They need to be more organized. Maybe following a schedule would help.

And again, Dragon Ball Room was established in 2016, predating all of this. They should have prevented this moronic idea of starting production for the next movie even before the release of the on-going one. What's their hurry? (Please just don't tell me Dragon Ball Super Broly was written before Movie 15 was released... I don't know if that's the case, but it would just make the situation worse than it already is).
Goku9001 wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 6:04 amWhatever changes Toyotaro made don't really matter. Super Hero occurs 3 years after the events of Broly so there's enough of a timespan where Toriyama and Toyotaro can adapt changes to suit the manga if need be. It's because of this that Super Hero as we know now doesn't have to affirm to the manga. It can act as its own thing because there's enough freedom for the authors to adapt the story for the manga.
So that we can have Dragon Ball Super Super Hero in movie format with those particular events, and then a Dragon Ball Super Super Hero in manga format with different events, suited for the manga? And what about the anime? If it retells it, should it retell the movie version or adapt the manga version? You really think that's a good idea to just continue to have these sagas portrayed differently throughout the media? You really think that's the best course of action? Better yet, do you think the way Dragon Ball has been handled so far is perfectly fine?
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Re: Frieza now stronger than Beerus?

Post by theherodjl » Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:12 pm

Grimlock wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 1:39 pmI, for one, don't believe anyone said anything about "banger of literary devices or inspiration for writing realistic characters in a crime thriller story" or "Shakespearean-levels of storytelling". What I am saying is you can have your "escape from things that are too real or serious: an appeal to our basic sense of just wanting to see fun & exciting battles of superhuman dudes doing space-Karate and launching massive energy beams at each other" while still having a good crafted story supporting your needs (note: "good" is not synonym/does not stand for "Shakespearean-levels of storytelling", in case that much still isn't clear). Asking for some consistency is not the same as asking for Dragon Ball to have a "deep, intricate" story. But to plan things in advance is a basic behavior each and every writer should have. Even basic, simple stories benefit from that.
Perhaps I shouldn't have referred to levels of literature that are just way too complex for DB but that actually isn't the point here. You really seem insistent on DB living up to a certain standard - your preferred brand - but that's not really what everyone else is looking for or having a firm expectation of in the future. Some people are for the most part, content(not totally 100% accepting) with the way DB is going or has gone but they're absolutely not holding out on hopes of seeing a sudden shift in DB's format & writing style towards what others might call "a good crafted story supporting your needs". It's particularly interesting to me that there can be a good deal of criticism towards a product but that some of those with significant critiques may still return to watch the product, desiring change but also content enough to keep watching and repeat the cycle?
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Re: Frieza now stronger than Beerus?

Post by Hulk10 » Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:02 am

No. Beerus said once that since his mind was always on destruction there was no limit to his power. This implies his power is always evolving. So no matter what Frieza does he will never match Beerus.
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Re: Frieza now stronger than Beerus?

Post by Anonymous Friend » Fri Dec 09, 2022 4:50 pm

Hulk10 wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:02 am No. Beerus said once that since his mind was always on destruction there was no limit to his power. This implies his power is always evolving. So no matter what Frieza does he will never match Beerus.
I always found it wierd that people keep complaining about Beerus still being so far away powerwise. Like His power never grows, while everyone else's does. A large part of Piccolo's growth is him meditating. Maybe all that sleeping Beerus does is his way.
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Re: Frieza now stronger than Beerus?

Post by Hulk10 » Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:07 pm

Perhaps. It would be interesting.
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