Was Dragon Ball Super a good anime?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
JulieYBM
Patreon Supporter
Posts: 16503
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:25 pm

Re: Was Dragon Ball Super a good anime?

Post by JulieYBM » Sun Dec 11, 2022 7:40 am

Trouser wrote: Sun Dec 11, 2022 6:17 am
anubisj wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 3:33 am I mean, it's not a horrible design per se, it's just a bit lacklustre. Like, too plain. When I think of an evil goku, I think of darkness, of black armors, of spikes, of cool bracelets and metal and whatnot. Maybe something a bit more intimidating, a bit more memorable.
No offence, but "darkness, black armor, spikes, bracelets and metal" feels out of place here and just screams "edgy". Goku Black design is fine and isn't overdesigned like 90% of designs created by Dragon Ball fans.
But to each their own, I guess.

The only thing I'd change in the original Goku Black design are muscles. He looks way too skinny compared to Son Goku.
Eh, 'edgy' has its place. I think the real issue is that all those things would just make the design harder for kids to draw and harder for animators to animate.

That being said:

Evil twinks are awesome! It's so 'not' Gokuu (as Yamamuro has designed him, at least) that Gokuu Black being a twink adds an extra layer of 'not quite Gokuu' to the design.
She/Her💕 💜 💙
progesterone princess, estradiol empress
Lucifer's bimbo daughter

User avatar
SupremeKai25
I Live Here
Posts: 4050
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: Was Dragon Ball Super a good anime?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Dec 11, 2022 7:50 am

JulieYBM wrote: Sun Dec 11, 2022 7:40 am
Trouser wrote: Sun Dec 11, 2022 6:17 am
anubisj wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 3:33 am I mean, it's not a horrible design per se, it's just a bit lacklustre. Like, too plain. When I think of an evil goku, I think of darkness, of black armors, of spikes, of cool bracelets and metal and whatnot. Maybe something a bit more intimidating, a bit more memorable.
No offence, but "darkness, black armor, spikes, bracelets and metal" feels out of place here and just screams "edgy". Goku Black design is fine and isn't overdesigned like 90% of designs created by Dragon Ball fans.
But to each their own, I guess.

The only thing I'd change in the original Goku Black design are muscles. He looks way too skinny compared to Son Goku.
Eh, 'edgy' has its place. I think the real issue is that all those things would just make the design harder for kids to draw and harder for animators to animate.

That being said:

Evil twinks are awesome! It's so 'not' Gokuu (as Yamamuro has designed him, at least) that Gokuu Black being a twink adds an extra layer of 'not quite Gokuu' to the design.
If you look at Toriyama's design for the God forms, you will see that he always draws God form Goku as thin. In Toriyama's mind, God Saiyan = Thin. Therefore, Goku Black being thinner than the normal saiyans (even in his BASE form) is good foreshadowing that he isn't actually a Saiyan, but a God.

This is why I dislike how Toyotaro draws Black all buff and muscular like the average saiyans, it misses the point of the Story. Toriyama always draws the God form saiyans (Super Saiyan God/Blue/Ultra Instinct) as thin, and Goku Black, who is an actual God, should be the thinnest (which he is in Toriyama's design notes and in the Toei Anime).


User avatar
anubisj
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 112
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:22 am

Re: Was Dragon Ball Super a good anime?

Post by anubisj » Sun Dec 11, 2022 8:53 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:43 am
anubisj wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 3:33 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:35 pm

I love his outfit, I think that, in its simplicity (as you said, it's pretty ordinary clothing), it manages to look very elegant and stylish:



He probably could have worn a style of clothing similar to the Supreme Kais' (like his previous clothing, which he did wore when he stole Goku's body), but then it would completely spoil his identity as the Supreme Kai Zamasu.

How would you have improved his outfit to give him a better design? :think:


I mean, it's not a horrible design per se, it's just a bit lacklustre. Like, too plain. When I think of an evil goku, I think of darkness, of black armors, of spikes, of cool bracelets and metal and whatnot. Maybe something a bit more intimidating, a bit more memorable. I'll give you an example:

When I first saw Raditz in DBZ, I got blown away. Not just because of the character himself, and his long hair and stuff, which was pretty cool in itself...but notice his armor. The shoulderpads, the breastplate, the tail acting as belt, the boots...I don't know, it just feels unique and creative and cool. Nowadays we are used to seeing that armor in everyone, because everyone has it, but that just goes to show that the design was amazing, so they use it a lot, Toriyama hit the jackpot there. Back in the day, it felt amazing watching that. In Goku Black, I don't feel that way, it's just an ordinary black gi with a red belt and white boots. That's it. You know what I mean?

Is it an ok design? Yes. Can it be improved? Definitely yes.
Goku Black is not an evil Goku and not even an evil Saiyan. This is the flaw in your reasoning. He's an evil Supreme Kai. Supreme Kais (Gods, in general) don't wear armour, like saiyans do. Especially since Kais are a scholarly race, not a warrior race, you wouldn't expect them to wear armour.

Black wearing armour would feel out of place, since there's a Supreme Kai in there. There's never been a Kai who wore armour. Even when they were attacked by Majin Buu, the Kais still went into battle in their light clothing.
It's not so much a flaw in my reasoning as; you think those clothes fit him because he is a divine being, and I think it's just a lazy and boring design, like someone else put it, a palette swap. For starters, he's not a kaishoin, he's something else, so it's not obligatory for him to have a kaioshin costume. I get your point, but it does not need to be the case (for me an armor could very well fit with his character).

Secondly, the armor with spikes was just an example, I was referring to something nice and unique, memorable. You can make a "kinda-kaioshin" costume that is memorable and oozes creativity, while Goku black just has a black gi, that's it. Really plain-looking (I don't even get the divine vibe).

Thirdly, about your other post (divine beings being skinny), it doesn't really make sense that just because he is a kaioshin, he automatically makes Goku's body thin, considering this was a body switch wished by the Dragon Balls, not even a special ability, but yeah, I could roll with that, ok, godly beings have thin bodies...except they don't always (see the supreme kaioshin and the one from universe 6).

User avatar
anubisj
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 112
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:22 am

Re: Was Dragon Ball Super a good anime?

Post by anubisj » Sun Dec 11, 2022 9:14 am

Trouser wrote: Sun Dec 11, 2022 6:17 am
anubisj wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 3:33 am I mean, it's not a horrible design per se, it's just a bit lacklustre. Like, too plain. When I think of an evil goku, I think of darkness, of black armors, of spikes, of cool bracelets and metal and whatnot. Maybe something a bit more intimidating, a bit more memorable.
No offence, but "darkness, black armor, spikes, bracelets and metal" feels out of place here and just screams "edgy". Goku Black design is fine and isn't overdesigned like 90% of designs created by Dragon Ball fans.
But to each their own, I guess.

The only thing I'd change in the original Goku Black design are muscles. He looks way too skinny compared to Son Goku.

Yeah, to each their own, exactly. I mean, if we all thought the same, this forum wouldn't serve any purpose. For me, I don't care about the design being edgy, I feel a black armor would suit Dragon Ball, would suit Goku Black, and more importantly, could be a nice design, depending on who designs it. In the end, all I care about is that the design is not forgettable, and that I like it. Of course, I mentioned armors and spikes, but it can also be body features or an interesting costume with stuff on it.

Jeez, I'm not a character artist, but Buu was so unique, just the pinkness of his body, the "limb" on his head, the black and red eyes, the sharp teeth, hell, even the little holes he had on his head (from where the smoke came out when he got angry) gave him personality and uniqueness (sure, his costume was just some white pants, which suit him really well, but Buu's design strength was his body). Goku Black is just a Goku with a black palette swap costume, not divine-like, not original, no symbols on his costume, no changes on his body...his clothes would be more suited for a random henchman, a tertiary villain. (The fact that the design of those clothes have been seen previosuly is also important, it would be different if Goku Black was the first character introduced in the franchise; as I said previously, I don't hate his design, but I think there's room to improve it, and those clothes are anything but original).

Just to be clear, I do appreciate simple designs from time to time, there's ways to make an otherwise plain looking costume, not too fancy, into something cool and representative of the character (Broly comes to mind, with his exotic dress and bracelets and circlet on his head, notice how he doesn't even have anything on his torso, which gives him an air of savagery), but in this case, I'm just not feeling it.

Also, I really can't agree with your opinion on fan designs, I mean, some can be awful, but 90%? To me, 90% of fan designs are wayyyyy better than the uninspired stuff coming out of Toei and Toriyama these days (I still have nightmares about Winnie the Pooh-tamo from time to time, I dream that he is a canon character and one of the most powerful in the universe, only to wake up sweating and realizing the harsh truth that it's all real) :sick:

User avatar
SupremeKai25
I Live Here
Posts: 4050
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: Was Dragon Ball Super a good anime?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Dec 11, 2022 4:49 pm

anubisj wrote: Sun Dec 11, 2022 8:53 am For starters, he's not a kaishoin, he's something else, so it's not obligatory for him to have a kaioshin costume. I get your point, but it does not need to be the case (for me an armor could very well fit with his character).
In the Anime, he in the official Supreme Kai after usurping his master Gowasu. In the Manga, he's doesn't officially become one, but he was still a Supreme Kai in-training. It makes sense that he would retain the fashion style of the Kais. His clothes clearly resemble the normal Supreme Kai attire (similar boots, pants, undershirt with turtleneck, etc.); really, the only thing he's missing is the large coat that the Kais wear over the shirt; but, if he wore that too, it would be too obvious that he's Zamasu, as I was saying.

With this being said, armour in the DB verse is generally associated with the Frieza Force (and the saiyans working under Frieza). I can't actually think of any important character who wore heavy armour and DIDN'T work for Frieza. For this reason, I'm not surprised that most of the antagonists of Super (Goku Black, Zamasu, Jiren, Moro, Granolah) don't wear that kind of heavy armour. The only one who did was Broly, and he was working for Frieza.
Really plain-looking (I don't even get the divine vibe).
Look carefully at his outfit: his boots are identical to Zamasu's, his pants and undershirt are also in the same style as Zamasu's, but black, and obviously he has a Potara earring and a Time Ring (both of which are tools of the Supreme Kais).


Yeah, Black's most notable feature is his black gi, but this doesn't necessarily mean that his design is lazy. I think Toriyama intentionally wanted Black to resemble the Kais with his outfit, and the Kais have pretty plain-looking and ordinary outfits (except for that large coat they all wear).

And for these reasons, more thought might have gone into Black's outfit than you might have assumed (Toriyama intentionally wanted Black's outfit to resemble the Supreme Kais' to foreshadow his real identity).
it doesn't really make sense that just because he is a kaioshin, he automatically makes Goku's body thin, considering this was a body switch wished by the Dragon Balls, not even a special ability, but yeah, I could roll with that, ok, godly beings have thin bodies...except they don't always (see the supreme kaioshin and the one from universe 6).
It's not the Gods themselves who typically have thin bodies (I'm aware that some Gods are not thin at all, like Sidra and Champa), It's the Saiyan God forms that do. If you look at Toriyama design notes (which I posted above), Toriyama always draws Goku in God Saiyan forms with an overall lean physique. Therefore, Black being skinnier compared to the average saiyan is an intentional design choice to foreshadow his identity as a God in a Saiyan body.

Post Reply