What's up with the hate towards Toei and their contributions to Dragon Ball in some parts of the fandom?

[JulieYBM]

DBS is universally despised

This isn't even remotely true and I say this as someone who was pretty lukewarm towards Super overall.

Yeah, I agree. I like Super more, I'm sure, but I also think that things like a universal opinion isn't really something we can calculate because it's so nebulous and depends on the mood at the time and also depends on assuming everyone is approaching all works of art from the same position. I mean, look no further than the stark few willing to criticize how the original comic and three television series writes female characters and queer characters.

[LoganForkHands73]

Bringing the modern material into the equation was inevitable, and I'd agree that much of it has been subpar, but one of the main bugbears I tried to express is when a vocal micro-minority claim that everything Toei have done in relation to Toriyama's work, stretching all the way back to Dr. Slump, has been worthless compared to everything that Toriyama has directly produced. Again, valid opinion, but I often find it to be rooted in a filmbro-ish attitude of Toriyama the Mangaka being this flawless auteur, and Toei the Corporation being the dull, derivative hacks who should never have been able to touch his creation. But this of course ignores the facts, namely that Toriyama has been constantly collaborating with the anime staff since the beginning (including with filler content, as documented on this very site), has vocally approved of many of their stories and ideas to the point of incorporating them into his personally penned work, and that many of the designs and creative decisions attributed to Toei's directors actually came from the man himself. Much of the praise for the revival era movies is directed squarely at Toriyama, as though he singlehandedly crapped them out without any help from the talented teams that actually brought his often sparsely detailed screenplays to life.

Has Toei employed some less than impressive studios over the years? Definitely. But have they also hired some absolutely top class industry talent deserving of adulation? Absolutely. Are they as important as Toriyama to the overall scope of Dragon Ball? Probably not. Are they still pretty important? Yeah. Am I overusing this sarky question-answer format? Yes. Should I stop? Oh god I can't please help.

[VegettoEX]

Oh, I have no doubt that nothing I've said here counts for anything new or revelatory in the grand scheme of things, popular opinions have come and gone like clockwork for however many years, but I hope some of what I've written resonates with others' experiences on some level.

I kinda wish I didn't go on that extra tangent, because that's really not what the focus of / primary point of my post was. Sorry for derailing you toward the end there.

In a nutshell, my point was that in the time since the show originally aired, as a collective fandom we've been able to specifically document and share so much more about its production process that we're able to analyze (including criticism, harsh or otherwise) the franchise to a degree above and beyond what was originally possible.

And this documentation work continues -- I'd argue at exponential rates -- as both the fandom matures and as the modern dissemination/transparency matures, as well. This leads to what seems like a perhaps unbalanced "hate toward Toei"... but I think it's just genuinely more informed.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

DBS is universally despised

This isn't even remotely true and I say this as someone who was pretty lukewarm towards Super overall.

Can we ever say anything from a hugely popular franchise is "universally despised"? I don't think we can ever underestimate the current generation, especially with a series like this that constantly brings in new fans who grow up with it and are fine with what they were first exposed to. Look at the Star Wars prequels, or to use a Dragon Ball example - the Faulconer Productions score. Both received widespread criticism in their time, but both are now quite liked by many. There are always those younger fans waiting in the wings that once they were old enough to share their opinions online caused the entire discourse to change. It's easy for us to see the things trashed here as being universally derided because this is a forum full of jaded adults, but outside the hardcore Dragon Ball fandom there are many fans that think differently about a great many things.

In the case of Super, it was definitely not universally despised by any stretch of the imagination, especially in the world beyond this beloved site of ours. Bars in Latin America were showing the Goku vs Jiren fight like it was a major sporting event. I've also seen fans on many other forums, Discord servers etc share their love for Super.

[LoganForkHands73]

I kinda wish I didn't go on that extra tangent, because that's really not what the focus of / primary point of my post was. Sorry for derailing you toward the end there.

In a nutshell, my point was that in the time since the show originally aired, as a collective fandom we've been able to specifically document and share so much more about its production process that we're able to analyze (including criticism, harsh or otherwise) the franchise to a degree above and beyond what was originally possible.

And this documentation work continues -- I'd argue at exponential rates -- as both the fandom matures and as the modern dissemination/transparency matures, as well. This leads to what seems like a perhaps unbalanced "hate toward Toei"... but I think it's just genuinely more informed.

Yeah, the fact that we have so much more insight into the ins-and-outs of the production definitely plays into it. I'm sure I've seen ancient (and some more recent) posts swearing up and down that Toriyama was deeply involved in writing every arc of GT or that he had nothing to do with the designs from the movies, and I guess back in the day there really weren't enough widely available resources to say one way or another. What's most frustrating -- I'd imagine for nobody more than the folks that run this place and others like it -- is when the information is plainly available yet it still gets ignored.

[Raki]

My only issue with Toei has always been that it ignores the fact that Dragon Ball is a growing global franchise. This leads to a slew of issues related to product investment.

Looking at what Dragon Ball is worth and seeing it being treated no better than it was in the 80s and 90s is annoyingly bizarre.

Considering how massive a success One Piece is Toei probably sees that as a priority.

[ClutchBangstrip]

My only issue with Toei has always been that it ignores the fact that Dragon Ball is a growing global franchise. This leads to a slew of issues related to product investment.

Looking at what Dragon Ball is worth and seeing it being treated no better than it was in the 80s and 90s is annoyingly bizarre.

Considering how massive a success One Piece is Toei probably sees that as a priority.

https://animehunch.com/dragon-ball-stil ... al-report/

https://comicbook.com/anime/news/dragon ... ofit-2023/

DB's success doubles OP.

Toei almost abuses the franchise's success. Which is my problem. Like they don't even have to try as hard because they know it will make money, no matter what.

[DestructoDisc]

DBS is universally despised

This isn't even remotely true and I say this as someone who was pretty lukewarm towards Super overall.

Right, I've actually seen tons of love for Super, on youtube especially. Look at this for example:

[Koitsukai]

DBS is universally despised

Citation needed.