Deep Thoughts: The Commander Red Saga

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ABED
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Deep Thoughts: The Commander Red Saga

Post by ABED » Fri Jan 13, 2023 3:26 pm

And so we come to the end of the Red Ribbon Army arc. I'm unsure why I didn't like this arc for the longest time. The biggest reason is I was under the odd assumption that Goku didn't encounter much in the way of obstacles; the raid on the Red Ribbon Army Headquarters typifying that. As it turns out, that isn't the case and I've come to enjoy the final confrontation. But let's backtrack a little. The previous saga was centered on General Blue, but his actual end is a few episodes into this saga. It comes at the end of the newly introduced Tao Pai Pai, and what an introduction it is. He's the first villain to have that feeling of being almost unbeatable. He has an incredible scary aura about him. What's truly amazing is how quickly Toriyama is able to introduce him, establish his threat, defeat our hero, the training for the rematch, and then have him defeated. He's able to do all of this within a span of a few chapters. The anime does this and more in about 5 or 6 episodes, and it does it well. His defeat is incredibly cathartic. The anime takes it a step further by giving him incredible theme music that is reminiscent of old Kung Fu movies.

Before Tao Pai Pai's defeat, for it to feel cathartic, he has to do something so dastardly, we are begging for him to get his comeuppance. In this case, it's the brutal murder of Bora, a character we just met a few episodes prior. Sometimes it can take a while for an audience to emotionally connect with a character but by and large, I think most make up their mind within an episode or two. While Bora is new and one could say he's "disposable", his death is incredibly effective, as he and his son are very likable from the moment we meet them. Maybe your mileage varies, but I don't recall ever seeing much, if any, dislike for either Bora or Upa. The only problem I have is their theme music. It's beautiful and would be perfect if not for that damn mouth harp. Why did they add that distracting boing sound?

Wow, this post is getting longer than I thought. The Karin Tower portion of the saga is short but very effective. It introduces a new character who's wise but quirky, gives our hero greater power, and has a lot of fun but doesn't undercut the tension of the impending rematch. During Goku's climb to the top of the tower, he's able to get some rest. That's impressive but is it sleep chin up impressive (Nine, Nine!)?

And so we come to the ending raid on the Red Ribbon Army HQ. I was so used to stories where the final boss is the most powerful that for a while it felt like having Red be a puissant short guy with no actual physical power was a letdown. Now, that's not the case. I see the beauty of the one in charge having no actual physical power but hiding behind those that do. What comes next was one of the most shocking twists in Dragon Ball, Red's assistant is the one that kills him. Why? Because in classic Toriyama fashion, the bad guy's plan isn't to use the most powerful objects in the world for world domination, but to make themselves tall! I've come to love how pathetic Red is, all the while see the logic in it. It makes sense (especially in the anime), so it's not cheap joke. Black's death is inevitable, but seeing the end after 40+ episodes is very satisfying.

Dub: My biggest takeaway from the dub is the casting of Kent Williams as Tao Pai Pai/Mercenary Tao. Great voice and can sell the imposing aspects of the character. The other thing that I recall even decades after first seeing it is the obnoxiously long narration at the end of episode 65. As Goku is flying towards RR HQ, the narrator talks over the ending montage the entire time. It's THREE MINUTES LONG. I thought maybe it was because they couldn't get the insert song and didn't want it to be mere silence, but no. The untranslated insert song plays underneath the narration. The ONLY thing that makes it more palatable is Brice Armstrong's voice, but the non-stop narration combined with all the talk about Goku being the champion of right is irritating. I could only imagine if the Kyle Hebert were doing the narration.

Random Thoughts
All of this advanced tech, including capsules that reduce an object's size and mass, but they still use landlines?
I can never remember the name of the different waters, be they Super Sacred Water and Ultra Holy Water.
Muten Roshi using Bulma's camera to try and spy on naked ladies but seeing a naked guy is a good case of comeuppance.

Sagas and Home Video:
This won't be a long rant, but still one I feel strongly about. The end of the Commander Red Saga, according to FUNimation is episode 67. It's the episode where Black kills Red. However, Black dies in the next episode, thus bringing about the complete end to the Red Ribbon Army. The last episode on the Saga set is, you guessed it, 67. So instead of ending where it makes complete sense, they leave off on a cliffhanger just ONE episode before the end of the story arc! WHY?! I know Commander Red is dead but what is the logic of ending right before the final episode? This isn't the last time something like this would happen. For the purpose of these rewatches, I'm not going 100% by FUNi's breakdown. I refuse to consider 67 the final episode of the "Commander Red Saga".

58. Bora finds a DB; defeats a group of Red Ribbon soldiers; Goku flies to the sacred land of Karin; saves Upa and meets Bora; Bora gives him the 4-star DB
59. Bora tells Goku the myth of Karin Tower; Tao Pai Pai kills Blue with his tongue; gets hired by the RRA to kill Goku; confronts Goku and murders Bora
60. Tao Pai Pai defeats Goku with ease; believes he killed him; finds a nearby town; visits a tailor to have his clothes remade; Goku begins climbing Karin Tower
61. Goku reaches the top of Karin Tower; sees his past, present, and future; meets Karin the Cat Hermit; chases him trying to capture the Super Spirit Water
62. Goku chases Karin; Karin gives him a senzu to eat; throws out his DB; Goku retrieves it; re-climbs the tower in three hours; obtains the Super Spirit Water
63. Tao Pai Pai arrives at the base of Karin Tower; Goku rescues Upa; beats up Tao Pai Pai; Tao Pai Pai realizes he can't win and begins running up Karin Tower
64. Goku waits as Tao Pai Pai reaches the top; Karin tricks Tao Pai Pai; Goku fights and kills Tao Pai Pai; flies towards Red Ribbon Headquarters to destroy it
65. Violet retrieves the 6th DB; Goku flies towards Red Ribbon Army Headquarters; Goku's friends fly towards Red Ribbon Army Headquarters to help him
66. Yamcha picks up Kuririn; Goku dodges the RRA's defenses; makes it to Red Ribbon Army Headquarters; beats up the RRA; Yamcha flies past their defenses
67. Goku beats up everyone in his way; the rest flee; Goku confronts Commander Red and Assistant Black; Black murders Red; uses a battle jacket to fight Goku
68. Goku destroys the battle jacket; Black dies in the explosion; Goku retrieves the Dragon Ball; meets up with his friends; they all leave for Kame House
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Re: Deep Thoughts: The Commander Red Saga

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Jan 13, 2023 4:04 pm

ABED wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 3:26 pm . It comes at the end of the newly introduced Tao Pai Pai, and what an introduction it is. He's the first villain to have that feeling of being almost unbeatable. He has an incredible scary aura about him. What's truly amazing is how quickly Toriyama is able to introduce him, establish his threat, defeat our hero, the training for the rematch, and then have him defeated. He's able to do all of this within a span of a few chapters. The anime does this and more in about 5 or 6 episodes, and it does it well. His defeat is incredibly cathartic.
I think my favorite thing about Tao Pai Pai is even though he represents the series shift into a more serious martial arts tone he himself is kind of a doofus. He has Kill You on the back of his uniform, he refuses to do his job while waiting for his outfit to be repaired and boils an egg in his bathtub while bathing. And yet his demeanor is always dead serious. He's a gag but not in the same way the Pilaf gang, and the Ginyu Force, and Murasaki were.
he anime takes it a step further by giving him incredible theme music that is reminiscent of old Kung Fu movies.
Appropriate given his design inspiration.
Image


. Sometimes it can take a while for an audience to emotionally connect with a character but by and large, I think most make up their mind within an episode or two. While Bora is new and one could say he's "disposable", his death is incredibly effective, as he and his son are very likable from the moment we meet them.
I think its so effective because we were given just enough time to see Bora and Upa's bond as father and son that any viewer can feel the sting when Bora is murdered in cold blood in front of his 5 year old so . Its also, I believe, the first serious on screen death. The antique shop owner beingshot dead by Colonel Silver was play straight but he was anime only and barely registered as a character. Every other murder so far has been treated as a gag. Its a pretty big turning point for the series.
. The only problem I have is their theme music. It's beautiful and would be perfect if not for that damn mouth harp. Why did they add that distracting boing sound?
Even in spite of the boing sound I freakin love Bora and Upa's theme. Shunsuke Kikuchi's score for first 28 episodes were fine but dude was on fire when he composed the score for the Red Ribbon arc. Shame that since the piece of music was so heavily associated with Bora and Upa it rarely gets used after this storyline. I think once in the Daimao arc when Goku reunites with Upa and once in Z when the alien lovers on Arlia almost reunite.

Dub: My biggest takeaway from the dub is the casting of Kent Williams as Tao Pai Pai/Mercenary Tao. Great voice and can sell the imposing aspects of the character. The other thing that I recall even decades after first seeing it is the obnoxiously long narration at the end of episode 65. As Goku is flying towards RR HQ, the narrator talks over the ending montage the entire time. It's THREE MINUTES LONG. I thought maybe it was because they couldn't get the insert song and didn't want it to be mere silence, but no. The untranslated insert song plays underneath the narration. The ONLY thing that makes it more palatable is Brice Armstrong's voice, but the non-stop narration combined with all the talk about Goku being the champion of right is irritating. I could only imagine if the Kyle Hebert were doing the narration.
I actually wonder if Funimation just assumed they didn't have the song included in the music track Toei gave them? Up to this point none of the songs had been included and there was a precedent of having Armstrong going on a long ass monologue to cover up what would have been a long awkward silence otherwise (episode 30 to cover for the missing Dragon Ball Densetsu). Maybe they watched the Japanese version, assumed the song wouldn't be available to them and recorded a 3 minute long narration to avoid what they figured would be complete silence? Notably they don't make this mistake again with the other 3 songs they had available to them. Oh Nadolny's Goku talking and cackling during Blue Travelers completely murders the vibe but you can still hear the song.

Regardless of the reason the end result is terrible. Funimation's dub of the original Dragon Ball is overall okay to me but that moment at the end of episode 65 might be the single worst moment in the entire dub.

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Re: Deep Thoughts: The Commander Red Saga

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Sat Jan 14, 2023 8:10 am

People often talk about the King Piccolo arc as being when "shit gets real" in Dragon Ball, but between Tao Pai Pai murdering Bora in cold blood and Goku's later onslaught I think these batch of episodes are.

I really like Bora and Oopa for what little we see of them in the series. While Bora's death is quite vicious, Goku's promise to Oopa to resurrect him was quite sweet. Obviously it stayed in Oopa's mind as he later recognizes Goku's voice when he calls out to the Earth to gather energy for the Genki Dama against Kid Boo.

Goku's assault on the Red Ribbon Army Headquarters, and his friends reaction to the whole army being annihilated is quite exhilarating. In retrospect, the revelation Goku came from a battle hungry race like the Saiyans lended itself well to his actions here, for better or for worse.

Funnily enough the idea of a villain wanting to be taller to not be intimidated was revisited for Freeza in Dragon Ball Super : Broly, although it was done much more for laughs there than it was for Commander Red.

Think we should also point out the recap of Goku and the Red Ribbon Army as he approached their headquarters was the only time Funimation kept a full insert song in their dub. Blue Water's dub didn't have it, likely because by that point Ocean and Funimation were no longer sharing materials and they were using what they had on the video they imported from France.

Speaking of Blue Water, their dub had some visual edits in these episodes, like paint edits over the bullet wound in Commander Red's head, and moments where "JESUS CHRIST!" and "OH MY GOD!" are seen in English flying across the screen being removed. I know Funimation's edited TV dub cut the latter, but does anyone know if they also cut the former when these episodes aired on Toonami?
Do you have any info about international non-English broadcasts about the Dragon Ball anime or manga translations/editions? Please message me. Researching for a future book with Dragon Ball scholar Derek Padula :thumbup:

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Re: Deep Thoughts: The Commander Red Saga

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Jan 14, 2023 9:32 am

Dragon Ball Ireland wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 8:10 am
, likely because by that point Ocean and Funimation were no longer sharing materials and they were using what they had on the video they imported from France
I kind of assumed Ocean always used material from France for Dragon Ball and GT and only got material from Funimation for Z.

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Re: Deep Thoughts: The Commander Red Saga

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Sat Jan 14, 2023 9:50 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 9:32 am
Dragon Ball Ireland wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 8:10 am
, likely because by that point Ocean and Funimation were no longer sharing materials and they were using what they had on the video they imported from France
I kind of assumed Ocean always used material from France for Dragon Ball and GT and only got material from Funimation for Z.
They used French footage for the last 4 episodes of Dragon Ball Z too because by the time Ocean got around to those episodes Funimation hadn't dubbed them, meaning their video tracks were not available. Ocean had more or less gone their own route with dubbing the series by this point. Blue Water GT used original translations of the Japanese dialogue, and original Dragon Ball only referenced Funimation's dub early on (as it predates the Blue Water dub by about 2 years).
Do you have any info about international non-English broadcasts about the Dragon Ball anime or manga translations/editions? Please message me. Researching for a future book with Dragon Ball scholar Derek Padula :thumbup:

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