Deep Thoughts: The Emperor Pilaf Saga

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Deep Thoughts: The Emperor Pilaf Saga

Post by ABED » Thu Jan 05, 2023 8:54 am

Emperor Pilaf Saga
Okay, and so this re-watch thread begins. Let's see how this goes. I won't be doing in depth reviews of the episodes, just overall impressions of the "sagas". In this case, the saga as FUNimation would call them was in fact a complete story arc. Does anyone know where FUNi got the term "saga"? I think that was used by the DB fandom well before FUNi used that label. The 13 episodes that make up this story arc are a lot of fun. Even though the story would find its footing down the road, the chemistry between the characters and the voice actors was there from the start. I've always loved the way Goku and Bulma play off each other. Joji Yanami is the perfect narrator. He can do comedy and drama. What is brilliant is that he plays it straight by and large which makes it all the funnier. It's similar to the score for Animal House. Despite being a goofy comedy, the score plays the whole thing straight. That's a lot of the joy of these first episodes if you started with DBZ, it's seeing the characters you know and love meet each other for the first time.

There's this clever throwaway joke that I forgot about but I found noteworthy. It's in the episode where Goku and Bulma meet Muten Roshi and he gives Kinto Un to Goku. This is from memory so I don't have the dialog exactly, but the short exchange goes something like this.
Bulma: Wait, you're a turtle hermit but you have a flying cloud? Those two things don't go together.
Muten Roshi: Don't get hung up on the details.
Not only is the line funny, but the delivery throws it away. I've grown to love jokes that are "thrown away".

I don’t have much to add review wise other than it's a fine introduction to these characters we know and come to love. In the manga, it's not the Pilaf arc as he's merely the final antagonist, but since the manga was so far ahead of the anime at this point, they could see Pilaf, Mai, and Shuu would not be one and done villains. Even if they didn't live past the first arc, the choice to integrate them throughout all 13 episodes was a smart one and a great use of filler.

The dub: In the 3 or so years since the in-house voice had begun dubbing DBZ, the quality had improved a lot. Granted it went from an F to a D+, but still that's progress.
Pam: I doubled my sales last month.
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A number of the actors drastically improved their performances from DBZ season 3 by simply not overplaying everything. Notable examples are Vollmer as Bulma and Sabat as Yamcha. Most of my thoughts about the dub will be from recollection and maybe a few spot checks here and there, but I won't be watching DB, DBZ, or GT dubbed ever again after my last rewatch a decade ago. The best things about the dub were the music and the narrator. The original music was kept and the opening and ending themes were given English versions. I couldn't be happier as my wish was granted. A few more of my wishes for the dub were granted over the years. Then there's the narrator, Brice Armstrong. What a voice. Along with Ayres as Freeza, he's one of the best bits of casting ever from the dub. I could listen to that guy say anything, including narrate my boring life.
"Rob sat on the bed watching TV while sipping from his Yeti mug.'The stress of his job was almost worth it to receive this mug,' he mused". Brice Armstrong understood the assignment. There are a number of times where the dub script has the narrator speak over moments without dialog that in the original just played in silence. I've got to say that I don't mind that in this case. Even though the script is often bad, his voice and acting are that good, it makes the narration pleasant to listen to. That said, I wish the writers had split the difference between writing lines over every moment of silence vs. overly long periods of silence.

A note on structure – One of my favorite things about these early episodes is their episodic nature. As film and TV have grown more and more serialized over the past few decades, I've grown to like one offs. There's something very appealing about having a complete story within 20+ minutes. Conversely, I've grown to dislike the 8-10 hour movie that so many shows have seemed to embrace. Toriyama does a good job of balancing the individual adventures with the overarching quest to find the Dragon Balls.

I almost forgot the opening theme. "Goku! He's gonna show you! He's gonna help you find the way! He and his friends are gonna save the day!" It's awful, but in a fun way. The score is fine, but not particularly memorable.

The Saga of Goku
The Ocean/BLT dub of the first 13, is a case of a great cast making chicken salad out of chicken feathers. I'm hard pressed to think of a a poorly cast part. Sure, the translations were weak, but the performances were strong. Hell even the voice of Muten Roshi is really good. He's not called upon to do the lecherous side of Muten Roshi but he pulls off kooky rather well. Saffron Henderson is wonderful, and Ted Cole was perfectly cast as Yamcha. As great as they are, the true standout are from the supporting cast. Don Brown as Pilaf, Alec Willows, and David "Squatch" Ward are Curt Hennig would say "Absolutely perfect". This is by no means an exhaustive list of the actors, but just a few stand outs I felt compelled to mention.

As I'm writing this, I'm watching the episode where Muten Roshi puts out the fire on Mt. Frypan (the dubt calls it Fire Mountain) and oh my Chuck, Roshi admonishes his former pupil for killing people over treasure. He didn't shame him for sending them to another dimension, he flat out says "killing". I also forgot that the final narration for episode 13 brings up the tournament. It's reminiscent of when DC teases films that never happen. Although, in this case, we did eventually see those episodes just years later and with a different cast.

Home Video: I never saw the episodes when they aired, and like most everyone else who became a fan at that time, I saw DBZ first. I saw the dub on VHS, but not even VHS, only the first and last volumes because that's all the local Blockbuster and Suncoast had in stock, those and Curse of the Blood Rubies. I didn't even see all 13 episodes until around 2003 when I got the DVD box set. Oh, and the VHS had two episodes per tape, except the last volume which had three whole episodes. Kids today thankfully will never know the pain. But the tapes were powder blue, so that's kinda cool.

Curse of the Blood Rubies
The movie does a good job of condensing the first arc, but as I get older and more familiar with all aspects of storytelling, including "voice", it's pretty clear that the film is definitely more earnest than the manga. The ending where the monster who was literally transformed by his greed learns the errors of his ways is very un-Toriyama, especially the part where after being unsatisfied with by the most lavish meals, the thing that finally satiates his hunger is a simple apple. The dub makes it sound like the Blood Rubies created the hunger and physical transformation within Gurumes, whereas in the original, his transformation and hunger were psychosomatic. That's my reading anyway. Does anybody else see it that way? And last, one of my favorite moments that I feel is underappreciated is Bulma's maniacal laugh when she lands a hit on Bongo and Pasta's jet. By the way, in Dragon World, apparently civilians can own jets with military grade hardware!

I enjoy both the BLT (tee hee hee) and in-house dubs of the movie. I didn't realize the actress playing Bulma in the episodes (Lalainia Lindbjerg) wasn't the same one who voiced her for the movie (Maggie Blue O'Hara). I don't recall at what point I figured it out they sounded different. Along with the first and last VHS volumes, I owned the movie. For a while, those three tapes were the only ones I owned of the BLT dub. I received the movie for Christmas in 1996. I didn't rent it and asked for it sight unseen. I was so excited, a Dragon Ball MOVIE! Then I popped it in and "this was it?" I was expecting something longer and I don't know what else. Perhaps I wanted something more than a retelling of the first arc. I wasn't sure what exactly what I was expecting, but after looking up the movies online and finding out the runtimes of the other films weren't much longer, I adjusted my expectations and came to enjoy DB movie 1 much more.

Wow, I wasn't expecting this post to be so long.

So I turn it over to you all. What are your thoughts on the first arc and movie? What are your recollections of watching these episodes and the movie?

1. Bulma hits Son Goku with her car; tells him about the Dragon Balls; they set off together to find all seven DBs; Goku rescues Bulma from a Pterodactyl
2. Bulma sets up a capsule house; gives Goku his first bath; Goku meets Mai and Shuu while hunting; removes Bulma's panties; meets Umigame in the morning
3. Umigame introduces Goku and Bulma to Muten Roshi for getting him to the sea; Roshi gives Kinto Un to Goku; Bulma accidentally flashes Roshi for his DB
4. Goku and Bulma arrive in Aru Village; Goku saves the villagers from Oolong; he and Bulma receive the 6-star DB as a reward; force Oolong to join them
5. The DB gang travels through the desert; Yamcha and Puar attempt to steal their capsules; Yamcha picks a fight with Goku; runs away after seeing Bulma
6. Yamcha and Puar spy on Goku and Co. while they sleep; attempt to steal the DBs; Yamcha panics after seeing Bulma naked; Mai and Shuu's plan backfires
7. Goku, Bulma, and Oolong reach Mt. Frypan; Yamcha knocks out Chichi; the Dragon Ball gang meets Gyumao; Goku takes Chichi to find Muten Roshi
8. Roshi puts out the fire with the Kamehameha, but accidentally destroys Mt. Frypan; Bulma gets the DB from the wreckage; Goku figures out the Kamehameha
9. Bulma, Goku, and Oolong gas up in a town bullied by the Rabbit Gang; Goku and Yamcha defeat Usagi Ninjinka and his gang; Goku takes them to the moon
10. Mai and Shuu steal the DBs; Yamcha and Puar join Goku's group; they all travel to Pilaf's castle; follow arrows on the ground; get captured in a holding cell
11. Goku and his friends run from Pilaf's giant pinball; Pilaf traps them in the cell they started in; Goku blasts a small hole in the wall; Pilaf summons Shen Long
12. Oolong stops Pilaf by wishing for a pair of panties; Pilaf places Goku and Co. in a stronger cell to die; Goku looks at the fool moon and begins transforming
13. Goku turns Great Ape; wrecks Pilaf's castle; Yamcha and Puar cut off his tail; Goku leaves to train with Muten Roshi; Yamcha and Bulma begin dating
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Re: Deep Thoughts: The Emperor Pilaf Saga

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Jan 05, 2023 10:35 am

ABED wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 8:54 am Emperor Pilaf Saga
Does anyone know where FUNi got the term "saga"? I think that was used by the DB fandom well before FUNi used that label.
I think it was a fandom term that Funimation picked up on and abused as we'll see when the Red Ribbon arc gets divided unnecessarily into three separate "sagas"
.
There's this clever throwaway joke that I forgot about but I found noteworthy. It's in the episode where Goku and Bulma meet Muten Roshi and he gives Kinto Un to Goku. This is from memory so I don't have the dialog exactly, but the short exchange goes something like this.
Bulma: Wait, you're a turtle hermit but you have a flying cloud? Those two things don't go together.
Muten Roshi: Don't get hung up on the details.
Not only is the line funny, but the delivery throws it away. I've grown to love jokes that are "thrown away".
Kohei Miyauchi was just fantastic. Unfortunately none of the other Japanese voices for Roshi (or English but that goes without saying) came close to his performance.
I don’t have much to add review wise other than it's a fine introduction to these characters we know and come to love. In the manga, it's not the Pilaf arc as he's merely the final antagonist, but since the manga was so far ahead of the anime at this point, they could see Pilaf, Mai, and Shuu would not be one and done villains. Even if they didn't live past the first arc, the choice to integrate them throughout all 13 episodes was a smart one and a great use of filler.
Iirc at the point the manga was at Buyon when the anime started so the Pilaf gang had only appeared for the end of the first arc so far.
A number of the actors drastically improved their performances from DBZ season 3 by simply not overplaying everything. Notable examples are Vollmer as Bulma and Sabat as Yamcha.
They dropped the over the top valley girl caricature and surfer boy voice so that definitely helped. Other than a few line reads here and there I still wasn't sold on Vollmer as Bulma but Sabat's Yamcha was probably his best performance at this point.
Most of my thoughts about the dub will be from recollection and maybe a few spot checks here and there, but I won't be watching DB, DBZ, or GT dubbed ever again after my last rewatch a decade ago. The best things about the dub were the music and the narrator. The original music was kept and the opening and ending themes were given English versions. I couldn't be happier as my wish was granted. A few more of my wishes for the dub were granted over the years. Then there's the narrator, Brice Armstrong. What a voice. Along with Ayres as Freeza, he's one of the best bits of casting ever from the dub. I could listen to that guy say anything, including narrate my boring life.
"Rob sat on the bed watching TV while sipping from his Yeti mug.'The stress of his job was almost worth it to receive this mug,' he mused". Brice Armstrong understood the assignment. There are a number of times where the dub script has the narrator speak over moments without dialog that in the original just played in silence. I've got to say that I don't mind that in this case. Even though the script is often bad, his voice and acting are that good, it makes the narration pleasant to listen to. That said, I wish the writers had split the difference between writing lines over every moment of silence vs. overly long periods of silence.
Brice Armstrong as the narrator and Carl Finch's English adaptations of the opening and ending themes were definitely far and away the best thing about FUNi's Dragon Ball dub. Leaving the score alone too of course, but that should be the default. The dub definitely gave Armstrong way way more dialog than Yanami but the only time it became a problem for me was the end of episods 65.

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Re: Deep Thoughts: The Emperor Pilaf Saga

Post by MrSatan2099 » Thu Jan 05, 2023 12:20 pm

I had a similar experience with the BLT dub. I too never caught the original broadcast in 95. Which given the fact that the area I was living in then had Fox, UPN, and WB affiliates I'm just betting I probably could have, but just wasn't in the right place at the right time.

Anyway, I'm not sure exactly when I became aware that there was an entire series before DBZ started, but probably in 99 thanks to a Pojo's magazine. I don't recall that I was ever aware that it had aired on American tv. So for Christmas 2002 my siblings and I got the Kidmark 2 DVD set of the complete saga, and with no knowledge of a previous dub, and having already watched it on Toomami, I just expected that DVD to feature the in house Funimation dub I was familiar with. Let me tell you something, when you're not expecting that BLT dub theme song It's pretty extreme. Funny thinking back that I could have been so ignorant at the time, but I hadn't been online for that long.

I absolutely love those early episodes (and really enjoy both English dubs too). It's amazing just how many memorable characters get introduced in such a short amount of time. Nice to know it still matters after four decades, like Pilaf and the gang popping up in the newest chapter of Super.

I'm also personally a pretty big fan of the episodic story telling. I appreciate how I can pick pretty much any single episode out of that original arc and enjoy it on it's own merit. As a very busy adult I like to be able to get a complete-ish story without the time investment of watching a dozen episodes. So I find myself going back to these quite a bit.

Movie 1 I could give or take. Very rarely do I ever revisit it, and I honestly don't think I've ever once watched the Funimation in house dub all the way through. I do love Gary Chalk as the king in the BLT dub though, one of my all time favorite voice actors. I wish he had gone on to do DBZ. The most interesting thing about the movie to me is it's bizarre history of releases on the US, like the 94 test market dub.

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Re: Deep Thoughts: The Emperor Pilaf Saga

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Thu Jan 05, 2023 1:34 pm

The Pilaf arc was a lot of fun, it was really the best way to introduce people to the world of Dragon Ball. You see the roots of Goku's naivety, an introduction to his friends and enemies we come to know and love, Toriyama's unique sense of humour and nice exploration of the world with environments as varied as mountainous areas, desert, villages and in the case of Roshi an island out on the open sea.

It is also a really natural starting point because the new characters are brought in gradually, introducing Goku and Bulma in the first episode is a nice juxtaposition between the natural world and the technological. Goku is a country bumpkin, oblivious to the world around him, while Bulma is a city girl from a wealthy family who never met a kid like Goku. Pilaf and gang being comic relief villains is very telling of what Toriyama is at heart, a gag manga artist, someone who tells funny stories to entertain. Of course the series would have more spectacle as it went on, and especially once Dragon Ball Z came around, but these are the stories Toriyama sets out to tell. A flying dinosaur who gets beat by a whack to the head from Goku's Kinto Un, a desert bandit who just wants a simple life finding a girl to marry, and the villain's wish being foiled by a silly request for underwear, all of which sounds absurd on paper but how these things are executed in the manga and anime are really quite endearing.

In a way I think Roshi destroying Mount Frypan with his Kamehameha retroactively foreshadows how powerful characters in this series could become if they harness these incredible powers they have. I sincerely doubt its what Toriyama intended, as he has said in interviews he doesn't plan ahead or think about what will happen in the upcoming chapters of his stories, but when you watch Dragon Ball Z first it's kind of funny to watch something like that happen knowing its only a small taste of what was possible with ki attacks.

I agree with your point about the simplicity of having a story opened and wrapped up within a 20 minute runtime, whilst still fitting into a larger arc or "saga" if you will. I think the fact we've become inundated with all these series that want to be movies like Game of Thrones, The Walking Dead, and Rings of Power that its refreshing to watch something so compact. Not to knock any of those shows (and to be fair I've only watched Game of Thrones, I'm sure the others are fine) but there's really more to serialized storytelling than just these huge, big budget shows.

Regarding the dubs its worth noting Funimation's original dub of this arc had nothing to do with Ocean Productions, it only used the cast most commonly associated with the studio, recording took place at Dick & Rodgers Studio and post-production was carried out by BLT and/or Josanne B Lovick Productions. Ocean were deeply involved with the alternate Blue Water English dub though, as the credits say "Produced in association with: The Ocean Group, Canada" and list Dennis Hrehoriac, who is evidently a key name associated with the company's works. That 90s American dub however was neat however, the scripts were actually rather accurate for a kids anime dub at the time, the voices range from good to great, even Master/Muten Roshi who has never sounded as good since, and a score that feels like synthesized Kikuchi. I quite like Saffron Henderson as Goku, although I think the best performance we've ever heard for kid Goku was Barbara Goodson in the Harmony Gold, as her vocal inflections better suit the character and capture his gullability a bit better. Don Brown was quite good as Pilaf, has that saturday morning cartoon vibe that suits a crazy animated show from the 80s.

I rewatched Funimation's inhouse dub recently, and while its not horrible its definitely not an ideal way of watching the show, the scripts are more censored, which is fine for a TV dub, but the fact Funimation didn't go back and do any necessary revisions is a painful reminder of their general apathy towards original Dragon Ball. Brice Armstrong is fantastic though, I agree with that, he made some really mundane scripts feel compelling and exciting. The cover of Maka Fushigi Adventure didn't sound right in the beginning, largely because I grew up with the Blue Water dubs and saw the Japanese version before Funimation's inhouse dub, but it grew on me, although I'd still take "Get that Dragon Ball" over it.

The Japanese cast were all fantastic in these episodes. Masako Nozawa was in her prime, and her kid Goku voice was just adorable, and sadly while herself, Hiromi Tsuru and Yoji Yanami were mainstays throughout the series all the way up until Super, Nozawa is the only one still with us, which I'm grateful for and glad she's had so much more Dragon Ball to work on.

In terms of home releases, much like the rest of the series we only ever had the season sets with Funimation's inhouse dub and the Japanese audio in stores around the UK and Ireland, despite the TV airings back in the early 2000s using the Westwood and Blue Water dubs where possible. We got the BLT dub of Curse of the Blood Rubies though, which was a nice extra and for a territory so used to the Canadian voices it was a novelty to have something of their work on home video. I did import the Saga of Goku DVDs for the BLT dub of the episodes though, which is my preferred way of watching these episodes dubbed.
Do you have any info about international non-English broadcasts about the Dragon Ball anime or manga translations/editions? Please message me. Researching for a future book with Dragon Ball scholar Derek Padula :thumbup:

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Re: Deep Thoughts: The Emperor Pilaf Saga

Post by jjgp1112 » Fri Jan 06, 2023 1:05 am

The thing I've always liked about the Pilaf arc is at the core, just about everybody besides Goku are just absolute selfish shitheads just all out for themselves and scheming, but are forced to come together at the very end. It's a microcosm of the cynical nature of a lot of Toriyama's humor. It's also the most passive Goku's ever been as a character, which is interesting. He has no personal investment in anything, he's just there to punch people who get in Bulma's way.
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
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Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
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Re: Deep Thoughts: The Emperor Pilaf Saga

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Fri Jan 06, 2023 7:53 am

MrSatan2099 wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 12:20 pmThe most interesting thing about the movie to me is it's bizarre history of releases on the US, like the 94 test market dub.
Granted this encompasses more than just US dubs, but while we're on the topic of these early episodes I think it's worth mentioning because something interesting about the first 5 episodes of Dragon Ball in particular is that those episodes represent the convolutedness and absolute absurdity of this franchise's English dubbing, as there are, at least 6 full dubs of them, each with a different cast:
  • Original American English dub for test markets - Harmony Gold
  • Philippines English dub - Creative Corp Product
  • First widely distributed US English dub - BLT
  • Texas cast English redub - Funimation inhouse
  • Alternate English dub for Canada, UK and Ireland - Blue Water
  • Southeast Asian English dub - Animax
As regards the movie, it is indeed a close competitor for the title of most English dubs though, and because there was a Harmony Gold dub, a test dub, BLT dub and inhouse redub it certainly holds the title for most US versions. If we assume the Frontier Enterprises dub exists though that would give Curse of the Blood Rubies just as many English dubs as the first 5 episodes, as we also had a Big Green version aired exclusively on Toonami UK in 2005.
Do you have any info about international non-English broadcasts about the Dragon Ball anime or manga translations/editions? Please message me. Researching for a future book with Dragon Ball scholar Derek Padula :thumbup:

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Re: Deep Thoughts: The Emperor Pilaf Saga

Post by 8000 Saiyan » Wed Jan 11, 2023 10:14 am

It'll never cease to amaze me that Shigeru Chiba would go on to voice Raditz in Z, and he voiced Pilaf here.

Two wildly different voices, one goofy and high-pitched while the other deep and gruff.
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Re: Deep Thoughts: The Emperor Pilaf Saga

Post by 8000 Saiyan » Thu Jan 19, 2023 6:50 am

Also, ABED might recognize Mai's Ocean voice as being Teryl Rothery, who appeared in Supernatural.
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Re: Deep Thoughts: The Emperor Pilaf Saga

Post by ABED » Thu Jan 19, 2023 7:27 am

8000 Saiyan wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 6:50 am Also, ABED might recognize Mai's Ocean voice as being Teryl Rothery, who appeared in Supernatural.
Oh wow, thank you. The thing I recognize her from most is Arrow. She played Jean Loring. She's one of those actors whose face I recognize as being cast in whatever show is shot in Vancouver.

She won't be the last Supernatural alum to voice a character on the show. That actor plays a VERY important villain.
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Re: Deep Thoughts: The Emperor Pilaf Saga

Post by 8000 Saiyan » Wed Jan 25, 2023 5:30 am

It's said that Brice Armstrong once met James Earl Jones, who told him: "I wish I had your vocal control."

When you're praised by the man who brought Darth Vader to life, that's quite a compliment.
"It was deemed to be too awesome." - Scott McNeil on Dragon Ball Kai not being aired yet in Canada.

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