Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Jan 19, 2023 2:26 am

Kaboom wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 12:34 am As opposed to Bardock — the real version from the TV special of course rocks his "almost 10,000" power level, but even the newer and wussier version from Minus/Super was still said to be in the upper ranks of the larger low-class tier.
:?

Why is he wussier? Because he's not a complete piece of shit like the non canon version of Bardock?

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Kaboom » Thu Jan 19, 2023 11:01 am

Grimlock wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 2:19 amThe scheme is then something like this, low class is divided into two groups:
Yeah, exactly. "Upper-level" and "lower-level" are effectively two different sub-tiers within the larger "low-class" rank. The ones who are suited for field combat roles and the ones who aren't.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Thu Jan 19, 2023 11:34 am

Who uses 'wuss', though? Like, I don't think I've ever seen it used in a neutral or justifiable context before. Hell, I don't even remember Bardock from Dragon Ball Minus having his battle power listest. Because, again, battle powers are nonsense. It could literally be anything, especially considering how he would later grow in strength battling Gas.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Kaboom » Thu Jan 19, 2023 11:52 am

Oh for Dende's sake...

Substitute whatever other word you want for the purpose of adequately conveying "the true Bardock is a compelling character because he was an irredeemable dirtbag who simply tried to back against the betrayal of an even bigger dirtbag, while the newer alternate portrayal of the character has been needlessly whitewashed into being more virtuous and merciful by default," and move on.

Because my post was on-topic commentary about Raditz' power level compared to (either version of) Bardock's, and this is beside the point.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by pepd » Thu Jan 19, 2023 12:21 pm

Kaboom wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 12:34 am In fact, other material that's commented on his strength and rank says he was a chicken who avoided tough fights and remained weak even by low-class standards.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Kaboom » Thu Jan 19, 2023 12:47 pm

pepd wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 12:21 pmDo you remember the sauce?
At the very least there's Raditz's bio in Daizenshuu #7. I'm pretty sure one or two other sources have restated this same thing, but I can't recall exactly when or where.
pepd wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 12:21 pmC'mon, you know what you are doing.
If you mean how I make a distinction between "real Bardock" and "nuBardock," then of course I do. I'd sooner stop being a DB fan altogether than ever accept Super's revisionist nonsense. But I'm still only making that distinction in the first place to make an on-topic point about Raditz's power and ranking.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:35 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 7:50 pm


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I'm pretty much on board with this with one or two minor nitpicks.

1) I would place Bardock at his peak -which would be around this time- higher than his coward son who avoided fights. I'd say he'd be at least 3k, and Gas above that. Gas was confident in taking a rogue saiyan without having a scouter and no assistance from his siblings, I don't know if those things existed back then but if Bardock were to grow a saibaimen, one of those weirdos would be the strongest on the planet. I would place Gas around a decent saiyan level, not Nappa but close.

I prefer going with:
Bardock 3,000
-- powered up: 6,000
Gas 3,500
---sorta unleashed 3,750
--- fully unleashed 5,200

I had bigger numbers for these two, around Saiyan saga Goku, but for some reason I now think there's no need for them to be much higher than 5k.

2) In regards of UI and UE, I think Vegeta meant Goku was the same as before compared to when their fight vs Gas started after listening Bardock's message. Vegeta was improving while Goku wasn't.
I know it's impossible to compare because Goku fought a clone and lost due to his own unmastery of UI from the get go, but if UE Vegeta was on top - and Goku implied that was the case when he let him have a senzu and use his scary new face to fight Gas, then silver Goku would be below UE and also Granola's FP.
But then he has some "feats", he is the one that takes the less damage vs FP Gas, not really due to team work, apparently his defense and stamina had somewhat improved, but his attacks were unremarkable.

Granny: 12
UI vs Granny: 12 and dropping
UE vs Granny: 12-14 (he wasn't getting oneshot like UI Goku, he was still going after taking huge blows and even after taking FP Granola's attack he was still transformed).
FP Granny: 15
--senzu: 16

Adult Gas: 18
--- with his own techniques: 16

post-message UE vs Gas: 17
post-message UI vs Gas: 16

Awakened Gas: 24 (I agree there's no need for Gas to get yet another boost once he got himself under control)
TUI: 25

Old Gas: 28
Zombie Gas: 30
Black Freeza: 40-45 at least.

Having said this, I do not oppose to silver UI being equally strong althroughout the arc, but I'd like to believe Goku got some type of boost after learning about his father and all, only it wasn't enough. Even if it's more of a mental boost, which can be seen in the improved efficiency of UI.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by QuakingStar » Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:48 pm

UE Vegeta and TUI Goku were pretty much implied to be even by the time Frieza folded them with one hit. I think with UE Vegeta gets better gains in battle and he only got better with it each time he used it so his power went higher and higher, and with him being healed after taking so much damage because of how UE works he not only got boosted from UE's battle damage conversion ability but boosted from his natural Saiyan ability. We must also remember that Vegeta JUST got this form, so he's a novice with it and he hasn't mastered it.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Thu Jan 19, 2023 4:21 pm

Kaboom wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 12:34 am
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 7:50 pmIn the 2010s AT suggested Bardock was weaker than Raditz by saying the former was a lower class warrior and the latter is a higher class. I think this suggests the bulk of the Freeza Army was quite weak, and so are most Saiyans since Raditz got to be middle class with a flimsly BP of 1500. Monaito's PL is stated by Bardock.
I just wanna say, because this particular bit has come up elsewhere and REEEAAALLY annoys me... that's honestly a misinterpretation. The "upper-level" rating for Raditz described in the relevant Q&A was merely a measurement of his strength/potential as a baby.
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A baby’s battle power is measured as soon as they are born. If their numbers pass a certain standard, then they are considered upper-level warriors and immediately raised as combatant candidates. On the other hand, those whose numbers remain low even after a certain amount of time has passed are regarded as lower-level warriors, and become either engineers or are sent off to a planet somewhere as “infiltration babies.” If they grow strong enough to conquer that planet, then they can return to their home world as a combatant. However, infiltration babies do not have a high survival rate. Raditz was an upper-level warrior and assigned to the same group as Nappa as a proper combatant. Before long Vegeta was added to that group, too.
Raditz getting that "upper-level" rating just means that he qualified to be fast-tracked into combat duty as a kid, rather than being shipped off as an "infiltration baby" like li'l Kakarrot was bound for. Growing up, getting stronger, and attaining a "mid-class" rank is an entirely different matter, and something which Raditz was never ever said to actually achieve.

In fact, other material that's commented on his strength and rank says he was a chicken who avoided tough fights and remained weak even by low-class standards. As opposed to Bardock — the real version from the TV special of course rocks his "almost 10,000" power level, but even the newer and wussier version from Minus/Super was still said to be in the upper ranks of the larger low-class tier.

So no, there really isn't any basis for believing that Raditz was ever stronger than either version of Bardock. It's just a recent and weird "reading too much into it" thing.
I know Daizenshuu 7 also calls Raditz "weak" (Like you posted after this), but it also says he was born weak which doesn't fit your interpretation at all.

Bardock being weak and a run-of-the-mill Saiyan makes more sense than him being some prodigy with a PL nearing 5 digits, but him being below Raditz might be pushing it.
Grimlock wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 2:19 am I think the issue here is the opposite. It's not that they are reading too much into it, it's that they are taking what was said at "face value", without having the proper interpretation it requires.

Let's assume that the "certain standard" is a power level of "100". Those who are born with a power level below that and continues to be below "100", "become either engineers or are sent off to a planet somewhere as “infiltration babies". We see Raditz on planet Vegeta when Goku was a newborn (as per Granolah saga), assuming he isn't that much older than Goku and taking into consideration what is said in that interview, it means Raditz either was born below "100" but managed to surpass it within the required amount of time, or was born with a power level above that, thus he is "considered upper-level warrior and immediately raised as combatant candidate" which I assume it means staying on planet Vegeta instead of being sent off.

That does not mean those who are born with a power level above the "certain standard" or manage to surpass it are regarded as a mid-class warriors automatically. This is another matter altogether, as already sated. In fact, it would contradict Toriyama's statement that there are only around ten mid-class people. There should have been more if this was the case.

The scheme is then something like this, low class is divided into two groups:


ㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤLower ranks - Become engineers or are sent off to a planet somewhere as “infiltration babies".
Low Class /
ㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤ\
ㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤUpper ranks - Immediately raised as combatant candidates.

This is supported by the tidibit that nearly all Saiyans are low-class people. It's only natural that there would be some sort of division specifically among them.
This makes a lot of sense. These two quotes are different interviews:
A baby’s battle power is measured as soon as they are born. If their numbers pass a certain standard, then they are considered upper-level warriors and immediately raised as combatant candidates. On the other hand, those whose numbers remain low even after a certain amount of time has passed are regarded as lower-level warriors, and become either engineers or are sent off to a planet somewhere as “infiltration babies”1. If they grow strong enough to conquer that planet, then they can return to their home world as a combatant. However, infiltration babies do not have a high survival rate. Raditz was an upper-level warrior and assigned to the same group as Nappa as a proper combatant. Before long Vegeta was added to that group, too.
To be honest, I haven’t thought it through that far, but Bardock is a low-class warrior. Although even saying that, almost all [Saiyans] were low-class warriors, and there were only about 10 mid-class warriors. And when you get to the elite warriors, there’s only King Vegeta and Prince Vegeta. Bardock is in the upper ranks as far as low-class warriors go, but he isn’t able to become a mid-class warrior.
This rank is determined by an innate latent battle power, but naturally, if their battle power rises greatly afterward, they can be promoted.
So it is possible Toriyama is referring to different things and I'm just getting it mixed up. Raditz being assigned to hang out with Nappa and Vegeta really sounds impressive though.
Kaboom wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 11:52 am Oh for Dende's sake...

Substitute whatever other word you want for the purpose of adequately conveying "the true Bardock is a compelling character because he was an irredeemable dirtbag who simply tried to back against the betrayal of an even bigger dirtbag, while the newer alternate portrayal of the character has been needlessly whitewashed into being more virtuous and merciful by default," and move on.

Because my post was on-topic commentary about Raditz' power level compared to (either version of) Bardock's, and this is beside the point.
That's... pretty much the same thing as the TV Special. Gine says it wasn't like Bardock to care about his kids like that, he's just saving Goku out of self-preservation of his blood/race and as an act of defiance against Freeza. He's still an evil space mercenary killing whole planets for money.
Koitsukai wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:35 pm But then he has some "feats", he is the one that takes the less damage vs FP Gas, not really due to team work, apparently his defense and stamina had somewhat improved, but his attacks were unremarkable.
Goku's whole thing is avoiding damage while Vegeta's is taking damage, so I don't think that comparison works...

I brought up Vegeta saying Goku hasn't changed because when the chapter first came out a few people (Me included) thought Goku and Vegeta got some resolve boost like Bardock, when it fact it just proves Gas hasn't left them that behind yet.
QuakingStar wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:48 pm UE Vegeta and TUI Goku were pretty much implied to be even by the time Frieza folded them with one hit. I think with UE Vegeta gets better gains in battle and he only got better with it each time he used it so his power went higher and higher, and with him being healed after taking so much damage because of how UE works he not only got boosted from UE's battle damage conversion ability but boosted from his natural Saiyan ability. We must also remember that Vegeta JUST got this form, so he's a novice with it and he hasn't mastered it.
Yup. Gas was cowered in fear of UE Vegeta before he passed out. Vegeta had amassed quite a lot of power in that fight.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Fri Jan 20, 2023 2:38 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 4:21 pmSo it is possible Toriyama is referring to different things and I'm just getting it mixed up.
Well, the first quote is talking about basically what I said, the low class is divided into two groups (lower and upper ranks). Raditz is a upper-rank Saiyan. The second quote is just saying there are three classes (low, mid and elite) and Bardock, despite being a low class warrior, is in the upper ranks as far as he can go (which pretty much is saying he's one of the strongest of his class). It's two different things that complement each other (just like Shenlong's background in Movie 14 and Toriyama's interview about Yamoshi and the original Super Saiyan God, another pieces of information people often misinterpret).
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 4:21 pmRaditz being assigned to hang out with Nappa and Vegeta really sounds impressive though.
For a time I thought the same, but when you factor in the information that there were only ten mid-class people and two elite ones, it's expected they would have to hang out with some low-class individuals, whether they like it or not. Which, as seen in Dragon Ball Super Broly, doesn't seem to be a problem. I also imagine those other two Saiyans are low class ones like Raditz.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:29 pm

I believe the main problem of the last page discussion (SSJB Fusion vs. UI) is that SSJ Gogeta should be enough to deal with Broly, having him turning into SSJB just for the hype overblows the whole power scale and make Broly seem like a larger titan than he already is.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:14 am

Noah wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:29 pm I believe the main problem of the last page discussion (SSJB Fusion vs. UI) is that SSJ Gogeta should be enough to deal with Broly, having him turning into SSJB just for the hype overblows the whole power scale and make Broly seem like a larger titan than he already is.
I remember reading somewhere that according to the novelization that Gogeta could've handled Broli in base or SS1, but went all the way to Blue just to flex, but I haven't been able to cofirm it for myself.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:32 am

DanielSSJ wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:14 am
Noah wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:29 pm I believe the main problem of the last page discussion (SSJB Fusion vs. UI) is that SSJ Gogeta should be enough to deal with Broly, having him turning into SSJB just for the hype overblows the whole power scale and make Broly seem like a larger titan than he already is.
I remember reading somewhere that according to the novelization that Gogeta could've handled Broli in base or SS1, but went all the way to Blue just to flex, but I haven't been able to cofirm it for myself.
Wouldn't that contradict the movie? Broly is definitely shown to have the advantage against SS Gogeta once he goes Green.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:13 pm

I gave the translations a check and that's not said anywhere. Most of Gogeta vs Broly was just describing the fight. Gogeta definitely thought Broly was quite dangerous for him to try to kill the guy. Or maybe he was just in a hurry after he saw Freeza's goons summoned Freeza, but the extended beatdown Broly handled shows he's not a guy Gogeta could've taken lightly. Gogeta was running circles around SSJFP Broly, but it seemed like he needed full power to do so.



So... A few months ago I did a list that used 4th Grade/Full Power SSJ = 125x Base. I quite liked my numbers there, but this whole MSSJ stuff feels like cheating, you know? Just an obscure reference in the Cell Saga and some sparse guidebooks acknowleding it... So I decided to try the 50x again, set Boo Saga Base Goku = 100 million, and try to work backwards from it.

So the solution was tighten up the mid to late Cell Saga numbers. I'd rather have big differences whenever Cell tanks someone, but it is what it is. If all those "many times stronger" from OG DB fit between 5 and 400ish, then this stuff oughta fit as well.
50% Goku being so close to Super Vegeta feels weird, but I like how the CG-Boo Saga portion ended up. Didn't include the Gotenks/Gohan/Super Boo stuff since it's a whole other game.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:25 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:13 pm I gave the translations a check and that's not said anywhere. Most of Gogeta vs Broly was just describing the fight. Gogeta definitely thought Broly was quite dangerous for him to try to kill the guy. Or maybe he was just in a hurry after he saw Freeza's goons summoned Freeza, but the extended beatdown Broly handled shows he's not a guy Gogeta could've taken lightly. Gogeta was running circles around SSJFP Broly, but it seemed like he needed full power to do so.



So... A few months ago I did a list that used 4th Grade/Full Power SSJ = 125x Base. I quite liked my numbers there, but this whole MSSJ stuff feels like cheating, you know? Just an obscure reference in the Cell Saga and some sparse guidebooks acknowleding it... So I decided to try the 50x again, set Boo Saga Base Goku = 100 million, and try to work backwards from it.

So the solution was tighten up the mid to late Cell Saga numbers. I'd rather have big differences whenever Cell tanks someone, but it is what it is. If all those "many times stronger" from OG DB fit between 5 and 400ish, then this stuff oughta fit as well.
50% Goku being so close to Super Vegeta feels weird, but I like how the CG-Boo Saga portion ended up. Didn't include the Gotenks/Gohan/Super Boo stuff since it's a whole other game.
Outside of not giving Piccolo's implied 2 times boost for fusing with god, I like it but I guess you don't have Goku doing big gains in between Boo and BoG right?

I don't think 50% Goku should be way stronger than SSG2 Vegeta so where you have them seems good to me. Where do you have Piccolo in the Boo arc?

P.S. SS Vegeta at 6,400?

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:05 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:25 pm Outside of not giving Piccolo's implied 2 times boost for fusing with god, I like it but I guess you don't have Goku doing big gains in between Boo and BoG right?

I don't think 50% Goku should be way stronger than SSG2 Vegeta so where you have them seems good to me. Where do you have Piccolo in the Boo arc?

P.S. SS Vegeta at 6,400?
1.6x is close enough to 2x for me. Maybe I can manage 1.8x which is almost 2x, but a full 2x is going to be too distant without either making pre fusion Piccolo too weak or Kamiccolo too strong.

Back when BoGs was coming out, AT did some interviews saying he felt Goku and co. peaked around the time of the Boo Saga, so I'm fine with freezing the status quo. Maybe he's 1.05x stronger, but that's probably getting too close to 100% Freeza.

If Piccolo's already half as strong as CG Goku then he's probably just a tiny bit stronger in the Boo Saga. Shin (Who's dimensions above Piccolo) was the weakest Kaioshin, which means there were guys stronger than him that couldn't even budge the Z Sword. So Piccolo is a lot weaker than Kaioshin who's a lot weaker than SSJ1 Gohan. Maybe Piccolo is a 1800 to Shin's 2400?

It's probably going to be more fleshed out when I turn this into one of those fancy google docs. I'm also gonna do the Super Manga since the Anime is dead, but I need to figure out all that UI multiplier and Gogeta vs Broly stuff first.

SSJ Vegeta is 4,000. Too late to correct it though...
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:17 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:05 pm Back when BoGs was coming out, AT did some interviews saying he felt Goku and co. peaked around the time of the Boo Saga, so I'm fine with freezing the status quo. Maybe he's 1.05x stronger, but that's probably getting too close to 100% Freeza.

If Piccolo's already half as strong as CG Goku then he's probably just a tiny bit stronger in the Boo Saga. Shin (Who's dimensions above Piccolo) was the weakest Kaioshin, which means there were guys stronger than him that couldn't even budge the Z Sword. So Piccolo is a lot weaker than Kaioshin who's a lot weaker than SSJ1 Gohan. Maybe Piccolo is a 1800 to Shin's 2400?

It's probably going to be more fleshed out when I turn this into one of those fancy google docs. I'm also gonna do the Super Manga since the Anime is dead, but I need to figure out all that UI multiplier and Gogeta vs Broly stuff first.
Interesting. Maybe I need to revisit some stuff.

Going from 1500 to 1800 seems small when you consider he's the only character besides Goku and Vegeta that is stated by AT to always train.

Shame you are not doing the anime. Gogeta is really a ball buster. You either have him hundreds of times stronger than UI Goku or you use lower transformation multipliers for fusions. I do like what Prince from Neoseeker did though. Maybe I'll use that but I'll wait to see if Toei adapts the movie in a possible Super anime continuation.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sat Jan 28, 2023 3:03 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:17 pm Interesting. Maybe I need to revisit some stuff.

Going from 1500 to 1800 seems small when you consider he's the only character besides Goku and Vegeta that is stated by AT to always train.

Shame you are not doing the anime. Gogeta is really a ball buster. You either have him hundreds of times stronger than UI Goku or you use lower transformation multipliers for fusions. I do like what Prince from Neoseeker did though. Maybe I'll use that but I'll wait to see if Toei adapts the movie in a possible Super anime continuation.
Goku and Vegeta didn't even get 2x stronger in those 7 years, so I'm fine with Piccolo not doing much. Everybody plateau'd around this time and Piccolo doesn't even fight here anyway. I think if he felt he could've made big improvements he would've spent another year in the Rosat.

I've kinda given up on the anime coming back, but scaling it is more fun. I'm kinda leaning towards Prince's idea (and his format; I did a list like his once but stopped around the Cell Saga), it's basically just the two-base theory but it's more fleshed out than giving fusions smaller boosts for the sake of it. It's not until Super that fusion starts to get inconsistent anyway, so might as well blame God Ki for it.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Jan 28, 2023 7:19 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 3:03 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:17 pm Interesting. Maybe I need to revisit some stuff.

Going from 1500 to 1800 seems small when you consider he's the only character besides Goku and Vegeta that is stated by AT to always train.

Shame you are not doing the anime. Gogeta is really a ball buster. You either have him hundreds of times stronger than UI Goku or you use lower transformation multipliers for fusions. I do like what Prince from Neoseeker did though. Maybe I'll use that but I'll wait to see if Toei adapts the movie in a possible Super anime continuation.
Goku and Vegeta didn't even get 2x stronger in those 7 years, so I'm fine with Piccolo not doing much. Everybody plateau'd around this time and Piccolo doesn't even fight here anyway. I think if he felt he could've made big improvements he would've spent another year in the Rosat.

I've kinda given up on the anime coming back, but scaling it is more fun. I'm kinda leaning towards Prince's idea (and his format; I did a list like his once but stopped around the Cell Saga), it's basically just the two-base theory but it's more fleshed out than giving fusions smaller boosts for the sake of it. It's not until Super that fusion starts to get inconsistent anyway, so might as well blame God Ki for it.
I still have the slim hope that Toei makes Gogeta go SSB right away in an adaptation.

:lol:

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GreatSaiyaman123
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Feb 14, 2023 5:43 pm

How does Fat Boo compare to the SSJ2s and SSJ3s in the Boo Saga? With a 4x gap between both forms, there’s a lot of room for Boo, and his fight with SSJ3 Goku doesn’t make things clearer.

Right in the middle between both forms is the lowest I’d go, it’s a good middle ground. I think I prefer him to be at least 3x SSJ2 Goku though, but 90% of SSJ3 at most.
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