Against Multiverses

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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capsulecorp
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Against Multiverses

Post by capsulecorp » Fri Jan 06, 2023 8:16 pm

I've noticed a lot of people seem to feel that there's a lot "to be explored" in the multiverse introduced in Dragon Ball Super. I disagree - I think the lackluster roster of the TOP is evidence that the multiverse has very little to offer. Indeed, if you look at other attempts at multiversal media you'll find similar problems. The formula tends to be: see that character you're familiar with? What if he or she had a slight twist? For example, Spider-Man but film noir style, or Thor but he's also a Hulk, or Freeza but he's good... or is he?

The multiverse seems to lend itself to pale, unexciting remixes of familiar characters. I'm interested in what people think is waiting, there... what is it that you want to explore in these universes?

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Thani
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Re: Against Multiverses

Post by Thani » Fri Jan 06, 2023 9:00 pm

Except, you know, DB already has that concept you're thinking of. Both "alternate timelines" where all that can happen and "universes entirely different from our own" coexist. U6 is similar because it's U7's twin, but even then there are no Freezas or Gokus there. Even Kale is a completely different character from Broly, despite having the same problem with their unique SS.

So yeah, I disagree. We already know U7 is barren with only 28 planets possessing intelligent life, so there's nothing really there to explore. At least there are 12 other infinite universes, with it's own rules, that can be explored. But we won't, probably.

That said, at this point, I don't really care. Tori and Toyo don't wanna explore the other universes, so be it.

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Re: Against Multiverses

Post by Grimlock » Fri Jan 06, 2023 9:03 pm

I kind of agree but that's just because of the way Dragon Ball handles the Multiverse. It tried something different, and while at first glance it seemed cool, they quickly blundered on the idea.

All of the characters seen in the other Universes could have come from Universe 7 and nothing would be missing. The concept of "twin Universes" only applies to Universe 6 and Universe 7, to some extent. You can barely say anything that justifies the other Universes to have their own "twin" ones. There's really nothing to explore outside of Universe 6. And that, I guess, only leads to the creation and history of the Multiverse to be a topic to talk about and probably interesting to explore.

But no, the way the comics handle Multiverse always has a lot to offer "within the apparently limited notion that it basically shows known characters living different lives". By the way, can you think of any other "formula" to use? I always imagined that the appeal of the Multiverse was to see known characters living different lives as well as the possible and different stories involving it (like Incursion, Crisis, etc...), but if those are still not good enough, I'd really like to know what you would do with this concept.
capsulecorp wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 8:16 pmThe multiverse seems to lend itself to pale, unexciting remixes of familiar characters.(...) what is it that you want to explore in these universes?
Which is pretty much what Dragon Ball has always done, even before introducing Multiverse with an arguable "linear" story. In fact, isn't "unexcting remixes" Dragon Ball's middle name?

Speaking of "linear", what's so good about it? What appeal does it have and what makes it more interesting than the Multiverse and its different paths/branches?
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Re: Against Multiverses

Post by Thani » Fri Jan 06, 2023 9:19 pm

Grimlock wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 9:03 pm All of the characters seen in the other Universes could have come from Universe 7 and nothing would be missing. The concept of "twin Universes" only applies to Universe 6 and Universe 7, to some extent. You can barely say anything that justifies the other Universes to have their own "twin" ones. There's really nothing to explore outside of Universe 6. And that, I guess, only leads to the creation and history of the Multiverse to be a topic to talk about and probably interesting to explore.
That is a good point. There were hints that the other universes work by different rules, like the Trio de Danger not giving a ki signature or Ribrianne powering up by "the power of love" or her own confidence or something. But ultimately it was not at all explored enough to justify them being from an entirely different universe/dimension altogether. Really a shame. ):

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Re: Against Multiverses

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Sat Jan 07, 2023 9:22 am

capsulecorp wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 8:16 pm I've noticed a lot of people seem to feel that there's a lot "to be explored" in the multiverse introduced in Dragon Ball Super. I disagree - I think the lackluster roster of the TOP is evidence that the multiverse has very little to offer. Indeed, if you look at other attempts at multiversal media you'll find similar problems. The formula tends to be: see that character you're familiar with? What if he or she had a slight twist? For example, Spider-Man but film noir style, or Thor but he's also a Hulk, or Freeza but he's good... or is he?

The multiverse seems to lend itself to pale, unexciting remixes of familiar characters. I'm interested in what people think is waiting, there... what is it that you want to explore in these universes?
Dragon Ball Super already established that this is not how its iteration of the multiverse works. Universe 6 had some characters who were designed as parallels to the Universe 7 cast, most explicitly Frost, but aside from that, they make it clear that they are all very different people from different circumstances. Cabba has some visual similarities to Vegeta but he isn't literally Vegeta from another universe. The presentation of the other universes in the Tournament of Power makes it clearer that they have almost nothing in common with Universe 7, except a few shared species.

To me, this is a much more interesting presentation of the multiverse than we typically get in nerd media franchises, especially American superhero comics, which indeed tend to just rely on the "here's a character you know, but slightly different" trope. In Dragon Ball, the other universes are just treated as these strange foreign places in a larger cosmos, all with their own unique races, gods, planets, etc. I really enjoyed the subtle worldbuilding in the anime that gave the impression that the people within these universes all see themselves as the heroes of their own stories.

You may just say "well, why bother calling it a multiverse in the first place, why not just make it a larger Universe 7?" It boils down to the implications that the original manga had already explored the limits of what Universe 7 has to offer. Goku already defeated Freeza, the strongest mortal in the universe, on Piccolo's home planet; he's already befriended the highest gods, all of whom he's surpassed in power; his final battle against Majin Buu, a primordial embodiment of evil and destruction, was meant to be the culmination of the story. The appeal of the multiverse is that it broadens the horizons for Goku's endless journey and gives him something new to strive towards. Beerus explaining it in the BOG movie was a hugely groundbreaking moment, because it revealed that not only were there Gods of Destruction out there who trumped Goku in power, there were possibly millions of other strong mortals out there who could also rival Goku.

In the Tournament of Power, we appear to reach another limit marker that, on paper, may decrease interest in the idea of the multiverse: Jiren is the strongest mortal in the multiverse, and he gets defeated. Most other universes have impressive fighters as well, but the arc establishes that Universe 7 are up there with the top dogs. Subsequent arcs have established that there are other powerful rivals within Universe 7 and the writers find ways to justify why they haven't shown up earlier (Broly was stranded on a remote planet, Moro had been imprisoned since the dawn of time, Granolah had to wish to become the strongest, guys like #17 and Freeza simply trained in seclusion to match Goku and Vegeta, etc.), which gives me hope that they'll use the same principle when introducing new enemies from other universes. I've always seen the Tournament of Power as not fully indicative of everything the multiverse has to offer. Most of the other gods are portrayed as distant to the happenings in the lower mortal realms, so they probably didn't know where to look to find the cream of the crop and just picked strong-looking guys from random planets to fill out their rosters. In the anime, Rumsshi hastily picks up a bunch of protein-chugging gym-rats to represent Universe 10 and calls it a day because he believes in the "power of flesh". Not to mention that there are at least four higher-ranking universes that did not participate, and the fact that Zeno and the Grand Priest were already discussing a "next time" during the TOP.

I understand the skepticism surrounding the multiverse. At times, I've felt similarly. Dragon Ball has rarely paid much mind towards deep worldbuilding as everything always boils down to giving Goku another strong guy to fight. But I think that completely ignoring the multiverse after the series went to some lengths to establish it as the next ladder for Goku (and, in light of the power-ups handed out in recent arcs, all of his friends) to climb would also be a massive waste. As Thani said, some fighters from other universes work by different power system rules (I personally like Universe 3's emphasis on technological power), so that's something that could be worth exploring. In an interview, Toyotaro said he's discussed future arcs centred around other universes with Toriyama, so I think it's only a matter of time.

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Re: Against Multiverses

Post by DragonBallFoodie » Mon Jan 16, 2023 2:07 pm

The Multiverse was used to set up a tournament, and that's all.

They only had time to give for a few universes exploration: the magical girls, the Justice Soldiers and the debut of alternate Saiyans. The other worlds were displayed as opponents, and that's it. They could have counted as a multi-world tournament, and that would have been enough.

The Dragon Ball Heroes TV show had a better execution of the dimensions warring with each other in my opinion.

And I must admit, I am currently burned out on Multiverses, thanks to Marvel's promotion of the concept (though I did like Loki and Dr Strange's sequel film).
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Re: Against Multiverses

Post by Shorty GZ2 » Tue Jan 17, 2023 4:48 am

DragonBallFoodie wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 2:07 pm The Multiverse was used to set up a tournament, and that's all.

They only had time to give for a few universes exploration: the magical girls, the Justice Soldiers and the debut of alternate Saiyans. The other worlds were displayed as opponents, and that's it. They could have counted as a multi-world tournament, and that would have been enough.

The Dragon Ball Heroes TV show had a better execution of the dimensions warring with each other in my opinion.

And I must admit, I am currently burned out on Multiverses, thanks to Marvel's promotion of the concept (though I did like Loki and Dr Strange's sequel film).
Pretty much, also agree to a degree with LFH73 on his take about the DB multiverse, tho atm time (albeit still plentiful in a sense) is running out for them to capitalise on that with SH (& now the current manga arc) being so close to EOZ & them already having used Jiren (who is still training/apparently still the Saiyans' benchmark in SH).

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Re: Against Multiverses

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:04 pm

I know I’m late to the discussion, but on the subject of Dragon Ball’s use of the multiverse, I agree that I don’t think there’s anything left you can really do with it. It was introduced as a single line at the end of BoG that was meant to let Goku know that there are all kinds of strong people he doesn’t know about, but after two tournament arcs, it served its purpose.

Multiverses may be the hot new thing right now, but Dragon Ball’s concept for the multiverse is much more simple and limited than how Marvel, DC or (shrugs) Rick and Morty handle it. There aren’t infinite universes with different versions of Goku and friends. They’re not going to do some Crisis on Infinite Earths or Secret Wars type of story.

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