Dragon Ball and Toxic Masculinity

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
Shaddy
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1612
Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2015 7:38 pm
Contact:

Re: Dragon Ball and Toxic Masculinity

Post by Shaddy » Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:53 am

8000 Saiyan wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:56 am
Of course, they always deal with people with disagree with them. It's politics we're talking about here.

That's exactly my point. Left-wingers would only like the right if it was like the left, basically another left.
I'm still not seeing your point here. Both sides essentially want the other to not exist, because that's how their side can shape society to their worldview. The right and left are fundamentally opposed, why the hell would they "like" each other?

ankokudaishogun
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1094
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:07 pm

Re: Dragon Ball and Toxic Masculinity

Post by ankokudaishogun » Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:04 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:25 pm Roshi’s sexual offenses are toxic traits (because it harms women, DUH) which is based on the idea that a woman ought to fulfill the desires of a man (masculine dominance). Obviously it’s a form of toxic masculinity, there’s no bullshitting about it.
"Toxic Masculinity" refers to negative traits being portrayed/accepted as "desiderable"(or at least "acceptable") in males.
Muten's pervertness is NEVER treated as anything remotely "acceptable" by anybody.

It's a simple character flaw that is used for jokes.
Not a portrayal of toxic Masculinity.

User avatar
JulieYBM
Patreon Supporter
Posts: 16503
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:25 pm

Re: Dragon Ball and Toxic Masculinity

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:09 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:04 pm
PurestEvil wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:25 pm Roshi’s sexual offenses are toxic traits (because it harms women, DUH) which is based on the idea that a woman ought to fulfill the desires of a man (masculine dominance). Obviously it’s a form of toxic masculinity, there’s no bullshitting about it.
"Toxic Masculinity" refers to negative traits being portrayed/accepted as "desiderable"(or at least "acceptable") in males.
Muten's pervertness is NEVER treated as anything remotely "acceptable" by anybody.

It's a simple character flaw that is used for jokes.
Not a portrayal of toxic Masculinity.
Toxic masculinity also refers to normalizing traits expect of men and one of those traits is the idea that men will simply always be horny and deserve sex from women. That Dragon Ball doesn't seek to actually dissuade from this at all is the flaw at hand here.
She/Her💕 💜 💙
progesterone princess, estradiol empress
Lucifer's bimbo daughter

User avatar
Yuji
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1107
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:20 pm

Re: Dragon Ball and Toxic Masculinity

Post by Yuji » Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:18 pm

Shaddy wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:53 am
8000 Saiyan wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:56 am
Of course, they always deal with people with disagree with them. It's politics we're talking about here.

That's exactly my point. Left-wingers would only like the right if it was like the left, basically another left.
I'm still not seeing your point here. Both sides essentially want the other to not exist, because that's how their side can shape society to their worldview. The right and left are fundamentally opposed, why the hell would they "like" each other?
Do you... do you think people with different political views can't get along somehow?

User avatar
Shaddy
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1612
Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2015 7:38 pm
Contact:

Re: Dragon Ball and Toxic Masculinity

Post by Shaddy » Tue Jan 31, 2023 1:07 pm

Yuji wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:18 pm Do you... do you think people with different political views can't get along somehow?
Who is "people with different political views"? Augusto Pinochet? Jerry Seinfeld? George Soros? My mom? This is a supremely silly question that I shouldn't have to answer. Yeah, of course people can leave political differences behind when those differences don't make one side completely fucking monstrous. But oops, in this case it does! Attacks on LGBT people (for example) is a huge part of the right's platform right now. Why would I "get along" with people who want me in conversion camps for being bisexual?

User avatar
Yuji
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1107
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:20 pm

Re: Dragon Ball and Toxic Masculinity

Post by Yuji » Tue Jan 31, 2023 6:14 pm

Shaddy wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 1:07 pm
Yuji wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:18 pm Do you... do you think people with different political views can't get along somehow?
Who is "people with different political views"? Augusto Pinochet? Jerry Seinfeld? George Soros? My mom? This is a supremely silly question that I shouldn't have to answer. Yeah, of course people can leave political differences behind when those differences don't make one side completely fucking monstrous. But oops, in this case it does! Attacks on LGBT people (for example) is a huge part of the right's platform right now. Why would I "get along" with people who want me in conversion camps for being bisexual?
Are we talking about right-wing voters or right-wing politicians?

I also don't think any Republican that's taken seriously is pushing on the anti-gay and gay conversion therapy nonsense anymore. It's not 2015 anymore, the window has shifted. They're entirely focused on trans people right now because it's the only slightly controversial issue among the general public.

User avatar
JulieYBM
Patreon Supporter
Posts: 16503
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:25 pm

Re: Dragon Ball and Toxic Masculinity

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Jan 31, 2023 6:52 pm

Yuji wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 6:14 pm
Shaddy wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 1:07 pm
Yuji wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:18 pm Do you... do you think people with different political views can't get along somehow?
Who is "people with different political views"? Augusto Pinochet? Jerry Seinfeld? George Soros? My mom? This is a supremely silly question that I shouldn't have to answer. Yeah, of course people can leave political differences behind when those differences don't make one side completely fucking monstrous. But oops, in this case it does! Attacks on LGBT people (for example) is a huge part of the right's platform right now. Why would I "get along" with people who want me in conversion camps for being bisexual?
Are we talking about right-wing voters or right-wing politicians?

I also don't think any Republican that's taken seriously is pushing on the anti-gay and gay conversion therapy nonsense anymore. It's not 2015 anymore, the window has shifted. They're entirely focused on trans people right now because it's the only slightly controversial issue among the general public.
1. Most trans people are bi or gay, therefore the bi and gay population are still being affected by conversion therapy.

2. They're going to go after the cis queers right after they're done genociding us (or if they can, at the same time).
She/Her💕 💜 💙
progesterone princess, estradiol empress
Lucifer's bimbo daughter

User avatar
Hellspawn28
Patreon Supporter
Posts: 15191
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:50 pm
Location: Maryland, USA

Re: Dragon Ball and Toxic Masculinity

Post by Hellspawn28 » Tue Jan 31, 2023 7:11 pm

Yuji wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 6:14 pm I also don't think any Republican that's taken seriously is pushing on the anti-gay and gay conversion therapy nonsense anymore.
Some states still have conversion therapy camps. Also, the don't say gay bill is a thing that passed in the state of FL.
2. They're going to go after the cis queers right after they're done genociding us (or if they can, at the same time).
They will probably go after POC and non-christain religous people as well.
She/Her
PS5 username: Guyver_Spawn_27
LB Profile: https://letterboxd.com/Hellspawn28/

User avatar
MasenkoHA
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6201
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: Dragon Ball and Toxic Masculinity

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Jan 31, 2023 7:25 pm

Yuji wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 6:14 pm . It's not 2015 anymore, the window has shifted. They're entirely focused on trans people right now because it's the only slightly controversial issue among the general public.
The whole "groomer" rhetoric is in full force though. Trans people (specifically trans women) and drag queens are getting the brunt of it but Republicans are absolutely running on the idea that "the gays are grooming your kids through media and public education!" Prime example is Republicans deciding Disney is woke and perverted for uh *checks notes* saying they won't back homophobic politicians in solidarity with their gay employees* and sometimes they have blink and miss it gays in their movie

WittyUsername
I Live Here
Posts: 4170
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:09 am
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: Dragon Ball and Toxic Masculinity

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Jan 31, 2023 8:24 pm

Republicans are absolutely still obsessing over gay issues. They’re just trying to use “protecting children” as a convenient excuse for doing so.

https://www.metroweekly.com/2022/10/mar ... riage/amp/

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/06/2 ... s-00042256

ClutchBangstrip
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 190
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:19 am
Location: Middle America

Re: Dragon Ball and Toxic Masculinity

Post by ClutchBangstrip » Tue Jan 31, 2023 8:37 pm

Depends...

Either DB doesn't actively participate OR it's the Shonen that participates the least.

I definitely see toxic aspects in it, but with nearly EVERY social ill DB contributes to, it has either rectified that toxicity or actively counters it. It's literally why it has the most diverse fanbase and is considered the GOAT anime/manga franchise. And I don't even think DB did any of this on purpose. It just sorta happens, telling a really long story that spans decades in an ever evolving culture.

'Also have to stress, ~90% of DB's fans exist offline. You can't use something you saw on Twitter to judge a series' whose fanbase stretches across the planet.

ankokudaishogun
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1094
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:07 pm

Re: Dragon Ball and Toxic Masculinity

Post by ankokudaishogun » Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:39 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:09 pm

Toxic masculinity also refers to normalizing traits expect of men and one of those traits is the idea that men will simply always be horny and deserve sex from women. That Dragon Ball doesn't seek to actually dissuade from this at all is the flaw at hand here.
Exactly: NORMALIZING.

Muten's perversion was NEVER treated as normal by ANY of the characters.
Everybody thought it a negative trait. Nobody tried to emulate it.

User avatar
JulieYBM
Patreon Supporter
Posts: 16503
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:25 pm

Re: Dragon Ball and Toxic Masculinity

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:54 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:39 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:09 pm

Toxic masculinity also refers to normalizing traits expect of men and one of those traits is the idea that men will simply always be horny and deserve sex from women. That Dragon Ball doesn't seek to actually dissuade from this at all is the flaw at hand here.
Exactly: NORMALIZING.

Muten's perversion was NEVER treated as normal by ANY of the characters.
Everybody thought it a negative trait. Nobody tried to emulate it.
The series itself normalized those traits and never actually did or said anything about it. There's a reason why it keeps being included and it's because the people making these projects like it and don't think it's a big deal or that they have a responsibility to be clear and provide consequences for their behavior or the abusive behavior of the Muten Roushi.
She/Her💕 💜 💙
progesterone princess, estradiol empress
Lucifer's bimbo daughter

WittyUsername
I Live Here
Posts: 4170
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:09 am
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: Dragon Ball and Toxic Masculinity

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:11 am

ankokudaishogun wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:39 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:09 pm

Toxic masculinity also refers to normalizing traits expect of men and one of those traits is the idea that men will simply always be horny and deserve sex from women. That Dragon Ball doesn't seek to actually dissuade from this at all is the flaw at hand here.
Exactly: NORMALIZING.

Muten's perversion was NEVER treated as normal by ANY of the characters.
Everybody thought it a negative trait. Nobody tried to emulate it.
To be fair, while the series never treats Roshi’s perverted behavior as “ok” per se, it also never treats them as appalling or vile. Roshi is painted as a lovable old goof who gets a mere slap on the wrist whenever he acts like a creep, and the other characters still accept him as their friend. His perversions are treated as a mere eccentricity.

User avatar
Gaffer Tape
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6052
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:25 pm
Contact:

Re: Dragon Ball and Toxic Masculinity

Post by Gaffer Tape » Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:41 am

Exactly. It's treated as something a few other characters might be slightly embarrassed by and that the victims are not pleased with, but it's also behavior that's treated as expected. If you're an attractive woman who hangs around this social circle, you're just gonna get groped once in a while. Hope you're okay with that! And, guess what? They are. Some of his victims even choose to live with him for multiple years. If that's not normalizing the behavior, I don't know what is. And to be clear, I'm someone who finds *most* of DB's raunchy humor funny within its context, but there is definitely a discussion to be had in regards to how normalized the Muten Roshi's behavior is and how it's both inspired by its culture and how its depiction can reinforce that behavior in the real world.
Do you follow the most comprehensive and entertaining Dragon Ball analysis series on YouTube? If you do, you're smart and awesome and fairly attractive. If not, see what all the fuss is about without even having to leave Kanzenshuu:

MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection Series Discussion Thread! (Updated 3/4/24!)
Current Episode: A Hero's Clone - Dragon Ball Dissection: Goku's Side Story! Siu Xing Qiu is a Testament to Courage

User avatar
Hellspawn28
Patreon Supporter
Posts: 15191
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:50 pm
Location: Maryland, USA

Re: Dragon Ball and Toxic Masculinity

Post by Hellspawn28 » Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:43 am

DatHenson wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 3:41 pm Despite stats on there being more FtM trans people than MtF, only MtF is massively raged on
I don't think we have a true number on who we have more of. Trans Men are also hated by people are just as bad as trans women as many people have been beaten up or killed. I seen people that think that trans men are rapey lesbians. Not to mention, Elliot Page has transphobia comments toward towards him pretty much every day.
MasenkoHA wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:17 pm
To the point transphobes will often make asses of them telling trans MEN they'll never be a woman. Bigotry makes you stupid, who knew?
Bigots who end up being accidental allies is some of the funniest shit out there :lol: . Like when someone told Keffals that she will never be a real man.
She/Her
PS5 username: Guyver_Spawn_27
LB Profile: https://letterboxd.com/Hellspawn28/

User avatar
Majin Buu
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1106
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 2:23 pm

Re: Dragon Ball and Toxic Masculinity

Post by Majin Buu » Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:17 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:54 pm The series itself normalized those traits and never actually did or said anything about it. There's a reason why it keeps being included and it's because the people making these projects like it and don't think it's a big deal or that they have a responsibility to be clear and provide consequences for their behavior or the abusive behavior of the Muten Roushi.
That scene in Super where Tenshinhan awkwardly stands there doing nothing while Roshi abducts Yurin so he can heavily creep on her in private to the point of partially undressing her comes to mind here.
Last edited by Majin Buu on Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
JulieYBM
Patreon Supporter
Posts: 16503
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:25 pm

Re: Dragon Ball and Toxic Masculinity

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:23 pm

Majin Buu wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:17 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:54 pm The series itself normalized those traits and never actually did or said anything about it. There's a reason why it keeps being included and it's because the people making these projects like it and don't think it's a big deal or that they have a responsibility to be clear and provide consequences for their behavior or the abusive behavior of the Muten Roushi.
That scene in Super where Tenshinhan awkwardly standing there doing nothing while Roshi abducts Yurin so he can heavily creep on her in private to the point of partially undressing her comes to mind.
Yeah, it's just so blatant and weird, especially in a series aimed at kids. It doesn't even really feel like they were making an erotica, either, it's just..."Yeah, women suck lulz let's have the Kame-sen'nin rape one!" and I'm just...why? It's not funny, it's not child-appropriate, it's not made to appeal to women with kinks, it's just bad, insulting, and a waste of time that sends a wrong message about sexual assault.
She/Her💕 💜 💙
progesterone princess, estradiol empress
Lucifer's bimbo daughter

User avatar
PurestEvil
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1948
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:34 pm
Location: Constantinopolee!

Re: Dragon Ball and Toxic Masculinity

Post by PurestEvil » Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:40 pm

Majin Buu wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:17 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:54 pm The series itself normalized those traits and never actually did or said anything about it. There's a reason why it keeps being included and it's because the people making these projects like it and don't think it's a big deal or that they have a responsibility to be clear and provide consequences for their behavior or the abusive behavior of the Muten Roushi.
That scene in Super where Tenshinhan awkwardly stands there doing nothing while Roshi abducts Yurin so he can heavily creep on her in private to the point of partially undressing her comes to mind here.
Despite being only 5 years ago, I believe that was the most aggravating “pervy Roshi” scene in the whole franchise (maybe except for Roshi askng a teenaged Bulma to pull up her skirt) just because of how blatantly violent that moment was. I feel like the fact that Yurin was the villain of the episode might have made it come across as “justified” as well, especially since Roshi attacked her partially to find out about her (but he totally would have SA’d her in the process).
This post was brought to you by 魔族

Rest in Peace, Toriyama-san

DatHenson
Newbie
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:04 am

Re: Dragon Ball and Toxic Masculinity

Post by DatHenson » Fri Feb 03, 2023 5:39 pm

Yeah it's just bad
And that's ignoring what he did to Puar before the arc to "cure" himself
Puar needs therapy

Post Reply