Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[GreatSaiyaman123]

How strong did Goku, Vegeta and everyone else get after training for 2 months in the GPP Saga? How do they compare to their ToP selves and other ToP fighters?

[TobyS]

How strong did Goku, Vegeta and everyone else get after training for 2 months in the GPP Saga? How do they compare to their ToP selves and other ToP fighters?

I don't think anyone relative position changed, I assumed the top fighters all improved at the same rate.

However yeah the humans just surpassed more fodder
17 probably can solo toppo.
Gohan could put up a fight against jiren but still lose.
Piccolo can take 2 of the trio instead of 1, he's made the biggest gains.
It's really only Piccolo and the humans who can take more people as otherwise U7 were already the best bar Jiren

[Koitsukai]

How strong did Goku, Vegeta and everyone else get after training for 2 months in the GPP Saga? How do they compare to their ToP selves and other ToP fighters?

By the beginning of the Granola arc, Vegeta has surpassed Broly, and we know zenkais aren't a thing anymore. Of course, Geets been training with Beerus for Dende knows how long, but probably not that long since he was still getting the hang of it.
I still believe most of his journey towards surpassing Broly happened in Yadrat. He wasn't that far off Prime Moro after all, who might be Broly level, or close enough. We know he surpasses him after eating some screws and bolts.
The manga tends to un-bloat things, so I doubt the saiyans became dozens of times stronger prepping to face Moro. But Vegeta's blast against Yuzun seems more than just double what he'd wanted to do, and he was far from finished with his training.
I reckon his SSBE would force Jiren into going full power. I don't think he'd beat him though, that guy survived UI. But if he were to beat him, I wouldn't be surprised either.

How about a nice 10x for both saiyans? I still have no clue how much of a boost Goku got from UI, as in how much stronger than his Blue Kaioken it was that was enough to overwhelm Jiren.
I'm not a fan of assuming 4th Sign was already above ToP UI, but it could be possible. In any case, no less than a 5x boost for the aliens.
Goku with SSB should make Jiren be more than just a guy blocking and trash talking.
4th Sign should be able to make FP Jiren work really hard to win, since UI failed, I don't think Sign would work.

Gohan kept on training, so I would say he can beat Kefla without losing. Anime Toppo, too. I don't think he grew much stronger than before, including the time between the ToP and his first fight with 7-3. At best, a 2x boost from the ToP to Saganbo.

Same goes for Big Green, SH put to bed the idea that he was blue level, he sure must be sharper than before.
I can't remember who Goku said was unrecognizable due to their growth, I guess a 2x boost for Picc wouldn't hurt, he probably got more out of his sparring with Gohan than he did. How about a 5x boost? while he was more of a Z assist kinda asset vs Saganbo, he wasn't a piece of shit either.

17 and 18
17 might be as strong as usual, and 18 seemed to be able to work alongside him without any trouble. Could she at the level of the gods, too? It would be a God Level Bargain Sale if that were the case. I guess she can make SS3 Goku call for a time out just like her twin did a few arcs ago.

In the canon, there are no implications there is a LSS2 or LSS3 for mutant Saiyans like Broly in Kale and whenever there were forms like that it was anime only. That V Jump or Shonen Jump article that came out not too long ago said Broly only needed to learn to control his LSS form as it is already his ultimate form, and the official Dragon Ball website also refers to it as his ultimate form and evolution or something.

And it makes sense, too. Broly by virtue of being a legendary mutant warrior might have access to the full power of the SS forms unlike the others who have all that power divided in two or three forms. It would explain how he can tango with a blue fusion without changing his appearence much.

[picc]

In the canon, there are no implications there is a LSS2 or LSS3 for mutant Saiyans like Broly in Kale and whenever there were forms like that it was anime only. That V Jump or Shonen Jump article that came out not too long ago said Broly only needed to learn to control his LSS form as it is already his ultimate form, and the official Dragon Ball website also refers to it as his ultimate form and evolution or something.

Sure. Maybe. There were no implications there was a SSJ2 for Gohan/Goku/Vegeta/Trunks until they did it either. No implications there was a SSJ3. All it takes for Broly to go LSSJ2 is a whim of Akira Toriyama, regardless of what we think we know.

But it was really just a hypothetical question. I don't think Broly is going to go LSSJ2 anytime soon, just was interested in the thought experiment.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

How strong did Goku, Vegeta and everyone else get after training for 2 months in the GPP Saga? How do they compare to their ToP selves and other ToP fighters?

I don't think anyone relative position changed, I assumed the top fighters all improved at the same rate.

However yeah the humans just surpassed more fodder
17 probably can solo toppo.
Gohan could put up a fight against jiren but still lose.
Piccolo can take 2 of the trio instead of 1, he's made the biggest gains.
It's really only Piccolo and the humans who can take more people as otherwise U7 were already the best bar Jiren

I think the differences in the top tier might have widened a bit. SSJBE Vegeta is on UI Sign Goku's tier, so Vegeta improved more than Goku in equal forms. 17 and Gohan were right behind the SSJBs, Saganbo steamrolled through them and Goku ran circles around him. I doubt Goku could do that to them in the ToP

Piccolo is SSJ3 level, and the humans broke the millions if they haven't already. 18's not the kind to train, so I dunno about her.

By the beginning of the Granola arc, Vegeta has surpassed Broly, and we know zenkais aren't a thing anymore. Of course, Geets been training with Beerus for Dende knows how long, but probably not that long since he was still getting the hang of it.
I still believe most of his journey towards surpassing Broly happened in Yadrat. He wasn't that far off Prime Moro after all, who might be Broly level, or close enough. We know he surpasses him after eating some screws and bolts.
The manga tends to un-bloat things, so I doubt the saiyans became dozens of times stronger prepping to face Moro. But Vegeta's blast against Yuzun seems more than just double what he'd wanted to do, and he was far from finished with his training.
I reckon his SSBE would force Jiren into going full power. I don't think he'd beat him though, that guy survived UI. But if he were to beat him, I wouldn't be surprised either.

How about a nice 10x for both saiyans? I still have no clue how much of a boost Goku got from UI, as in how much stronger than his Blue Kaioken it was that was enough to overwhelm Jiren.
I'm not a fan of assuming 4th Sign was already above ToP UI, but it could be possible. In any case, no less than a 5x boost for the aliens.
Goku with SSB should make Jiren be more than just a guy blocking and trash talking.
4th Sign should be able to make FP Jiren work really hard to win, since UI failed, I don't think Sign would work.

Gohan kept on training, so I would say he can beat Kefla without losing. Anime Toppo, too. I don't think he grew much stronger than before, including the time between the ToP and his first fight with 7-3. At best, a 2x boost from the ToP to Saganbo.

Same goes for Big Green, SH put to bed the idea that he was blue level, he sure must be sharper than before.
I can't remember who Goku said was unrecognizable due to their growth, I guess a 2x boost for Picc wouldn't hurt, he probably got more out of his sparring with Gohan than he did. How about a 5x boost? while he was more of a Z assist kinda asset vs Saganbo, he wasn't a piece of shit either.

17 and 18
17 might be as strong as usual, and 18 seemed to be able to work alongside him without any trouble. Could she at the level of the gods, too? It would be a God Level Bargain Sale if that were the case. I guess she can make SS3 Goku call for a time out just like her twin did a few arcs ago.

I've actually been a bit unsure about Vegeta > Broly... He can't even access his Ikari power without a triger, let alone SSJ and LSSJ. They're essentially rage boosts, and rage boosts don't count because they're unpredictable.

In comparison to Goku, Vegeta seems to have surpassed him in equal forms since he can hurt Moro a bit. Forced Spirit Fission doesn't work if there's no damage, as we see when 73 Moro tanks Vegeta. Piccolo also talks about Vegeta "surpassing" Goku, but that's probably because he was going to beat Moro. I like to look at it like this:

ToP SSJBs: 1

Gohan: 2
Saganbo: 3~4

Goku: 5
~ UI Sign: 250

Vegeta: 10
~ SSJBE: 200

Though this also limits the size of UI's boost, unless Vegeta surpassed Goku by a ridiculously large amount. Super Hero implies they're equals in base, so the gap can't be that big.

If Piccolo can keep up with Gohan while being a lot weaker, I think the same can be said about 18. She may just be the same, all she did was beat Shimorekka and bother Moro a bit.

[Hugo Boss]

How strong did Goku, Vegeta and everyone else get after training for 2 months in the GPP Saga? How do they compare to their ToP selves and other ToP fighters?

Goku and Vegeta would probably beat Jiren. Gohan can beat Kefla, and probably Toppo, Hit and Golden Freeza. It's difficult to tell how far Piccolo progressed, as well as 17 and 18, but I don't think they were stronger than Boo after he got his potential released or anything close to SSG, but maybe they are not too far either (above SS3 seems a good placement).

[Miracles]

In th Galactic Patrol arc, Piccolo said the whole universe was at stake with the fight between Prime Moro and UI Sign Goku. That means UI Sign Goku would kick Broly's cheeks.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

In th Galactic Patrol arc, Piccolo said the whole universe was at stake with the fight between Prime Moro and UI Sign Goku. That means UI Sign Goku would kick Broly's cheeks.

Moro would drain Broly’s power before he can even transform though. Sign Goku was keeping up because he was too fast for Moro to absorb.

[Miracles]

In th Galactic Patrol arc, Piccolo said the whole universe was at stake with the fight between Prime Moro and UI Sign Goku. That means UI Sign Goku would kick Broly's cheeks.

Moro would drain Broly’s power before he can even transform though. Sign Goku was keeping up because he was too fast for Moro to absorb.

It was made clear that Moro didn't need to drain UI Sign Goku since he was already full from eating countless planets. He only drains when he is hungry, in order to fill up. Hence why Moro told Goku that it was foolish to think he depends on his absorption for fighting.The same would be for Broly, Moro would beat Broly up physically then absorb after. The fate of the whole universe depended on power between both Moro and UI Sign Goku. Not one's speed or absorption technique.

[Goku9001]

In th Galactic Patrol arc, Piccolo said the whole universe was at stake with the fight between Prime Moro and UI Sign Goku. That means UI Sign Goku would kick Broly's cheeks.

Moro would drain Broly’s power before he can even transform though. Sign Goku was keeping up because he was too fast for Moro to absorb.

It was made clear that Moro didn't need to drain UI Sign Goku since he was already full from eating countless planets. He only drains when he is hungry, in order to fill up. Hence why Moro told Goku that it was foolish to think he depends on his absorption for fighting.The same would be for Broly, Moro would beat Broly up physically then absorb after. The fate of the whole universe depended on power between both Moro and UI Sign Goku. Not one's speed or absorption technique.

Moro also continued to absorb Dai Kaioshin's power until his power surpassed his.

There's no half measures. Either Vegeta surpassed Broly or he didn't.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

It was made clear that Moro didn't need to drain UI Sign Goku since he was already full from eating countless planets. He only drains when he is hungry, in order to fill up. Hence why Moro told Goku that it was foolish to think he depends on his absorption for fighting.The same would be for Broly, Moro would beat Broly up physically then absorb after. The fate of the whole universe depended on power between both Moro and UI Sign Goku. Not one's speed or absorption technique.

Moro literally tried to drain Goku before going full power though. He's never been shy about using his magic, it's part of his powers.

[Miracles]

It was made clear that Moro didn't need to drain UI Sign Goku since he was already full from eating countless planets. He only drains when he is hungry, in order to fill up. Hence why Moro told Goku that it was foolish to think he depends on his absorption for fighting.The same would be for Broly, Moro would beat Broly up physically then absorb after. The fate of the whole universe depended on power between both Moro and UI Sign Goku. Not one's speed or absorption technique.

Moro literally tried to drain Goku before going full power though. He's never been shy about using his magic, it's part of his powers.

Moro bluffed, Goku assumed Moro needed to absorb his powers at the start to win. However, Moro says and shows he was already filled up from countless planets from before. He didn't need to absorb Goku's energy for their fight.

[Koitsukai]

Aside of anything involving Moro, Whis' comment is pretty straightforward*, if there was an opportunity to add "well, except for Broly's rage/out of control, etc" it was when Goku asked Whis if he knew anybody stronger than them. Whis' first objection to Goku was the perfect set up to add Broly into the mix. Goku's attitude also implies Broly has been surpassed by Vegeta as well.

Besides, in his case, his power is less accessible than to others, but it didn't take much to come out, a beating for Ikari, and the same event that triggered everybody's SS. He can still reach those heights, it wasn't a fluke or borrowed power, not counting this power when trying to be declared the strongest would make no sense, specially coming from the author.

*and also backed up by SSBE Vegeta's not-too-shabby performance vs the strongest in the universe, he most definitely would defeat Moro73 without SF.
I know it implies Vegeta grew tens of times stronger in just two arcs, but it is backed by his fight vs Granola, who did something Moro73 could never. In the Moro arc, he also wasn't that far off from the level Broly displayed.

Now the part the authors don't think about: If the multipliers for Broly (and Gogeta) are lowered, then Geets' growth might not be as gargantual. Say Broly got a 10x boost from SS, and then 2x or so from LSS, then a 20x boost for the saiyans should be enough to surpass Broly. That, or he grew +100x stronger, which probably isn't the case and would be a first time for the manga.

---

I agree 18 doesn't need to be much stronger than before, I try not to pay close attention to the non-saiyans at the ToP.

I think SS3 level for Piccolo works. The manga doesn't pay much attention to him, but the anime has him much stronger, like Ultimate level I think? which is crazy IMO(specially training on his own and in lesser time than before), so SS3 level after the U6, ToP, and training with Gohan for 2 months looks good to me. That'd be like a 10x boost throughout DBS, or so.

[ZombieVito]

I think SS3 level for Piccolo works. The manga doesn't pay much attention to him, but the anime has him much stronger, like Ultimate level I think? which is crazy IMO(specially training on his own and in lesser time than before), so SS3 level after the U6, ToP, and training with Gohan for 2 months looks good to me. That'd be like a 10x boost throughout DBS, or so.

Piccolo in the anime before training with Ultimate Gohan is just SS2 Boo arc tier. Which is a fraction of the current base tier (>> SS3 Gotenks).

[picc]

Crazy to think how strong SSBE got.

It went from barely giving Jiren pause, to making full power Granolah work for an entire issue to beat. All these angel and god tranformations and a simple super saiyan form was stronger than almost everything. Ultra Ego didnt even boost his power that much compared to other transformations, Vegeta was already competitive just using blue evolution. Crazy when you think about it.

[Almighty Majin]

How strong did Goku, Vegeta and everyone else get after training for 2 months in the GPP Saga? How do they compare to their ToP selves and other ToP fighters?

Goku: He did extensive training with Merus, an apprentice Angel and got a better understanding of UI so he got significantly stronger. His SSJB state was already above Saganbo who would have been a top tier fighter in the ToP. In UI - Omen, he'd be above the state he used against Jiren, not sure if he's above ToP silver-haired UI though.

Vegeta: After mastering Spirit Control, his SSJBE state seemed to rival Goku's UI - Omen state in this arc so I have them as comparable. He also has Forced Spirit Fission which gives him an extra edge in battle. I think he would also be able to beat Jiren's regular full power. Limit Breaker Jiren is debatable though.

Gohan: Gohan in the ToP was comparable to, if not below Android 17 in terms of power. During the Moro battle, Gohan is the strongest fighter on Earth right behind Goku and Vegeta which means he is above Moro arc 17 who is stronger than his ToP self.
Gohan (Moro arc) > Android 17 (Moro arc) > Android 17 (ToP) > Gohan (ToP) imo

Piccolo: Piccolo seems to be comparable to Gohan in this arc so he is definitely far above his power in the ToP. He would be relative to the SSJB level fighters in the ToP.

Krillin: I think that Krillin in the ToP was substantially stronger than Tien and Master Roshi and that he's relative to Android 18 in the ToP for the most part (18 is clearly still a good deal stronger than Krillin, but I think Krillin in the ToP is closer to 18 than to Tien and Roshi). Moro arc Krillin is just stronger than ToP arc Krillin who couldn't beat Yunba, but after training, he managed to beat him. Krillin would be a decent mid-tier fighter in the tournament at this point I think.

Tien, Yamcha, Chiaotzu, and Master Roshi: I think they all improved to the point of being relative to Krillin in this arc.

Android 17: He is definitely stronger than his ToP self, but not sure by how much. Maybe he can match Toppo and beat him? Idk

Android 18: I think Android 18 also grew substantially stronger between the ToP and Moro arc. It's likely she trained with 17 during that 2 month gap and she also didn't seem too far off from 17 in this arc. Moro arc 18 is probably comparable to ToP arc 17, maybe slightly below that imo.

[Miracles]

Moro would drain Broly’s power before he can even transform though. Sign Goku was keeping up because he was too fast for Moro to absorb.

It was made clear that Moro didn't need to drain UI Sign Goku since he was already full from eating countless planets. He only drains when he is hungry, in order to fill up. Hence why Moro told Goku that it was foolish to think he depends on his absorption for fighting.The same would be for Broly, Moro would beat Broly up physically then absorb after. The fate of the whole universe depended on power between both Moro and UI Sign Goku. Not one's speed or absorption technique.

Moro also continued to absorb Dai Kaioshin's power until his power surpassed his.

There's no half measures. Either Vegeta surpassed Broly or he didn't.

Absolutely. In the manga, Goku/Vegeta been left Broly in the dust. However, do you know when Moro was absorbing Dai Kaioshin? I do not.

[Goku9001]

It was made clear that Moro didn't need to drain UI Sign Goku since he was already full from eating countless planets. He only drains when he is hungry, in order to fill up. Hence why Moro told Goku that it was foolish to think he depends on his absorption for fighting.The same would be for Broly, Moro would beat Broly up physically then absorb after. The fate of the whole universe depended on power between both Moro and UI Sign Goku. Not one's speed or absorption technique.

Moro also continued to absorb Dai Kaioshin's power until his power surpassed his.

There's no half measures. Either Vegeta surpassed Broly or he didn't.

Absolutely. In the manga, Goku/Vegeta been left Broly in the dust. However, do you know when Moro was absorbing Dai Kaioshin? I do not.

It was during Chapter 49 where Goku, Vegeta, and Dai Kaioshin attempt to confront Moro in space. Moro hides behind an asteroid. Dai Kaioshin launches a large energy blast to expose him. Instead, Moro emerges and absorbs it. Afterwards, Moro says that his power exceeds Dai Kaioshin. From there, he just approaches Dai Kaioshin and pummels him around.

[Koitsukai]

So, given that Vegeta has surpassed Broly, I was wondering just how much stronger he's gotten since the ToP.

With the Z multipliers, his SSB(SSBE and KKx20 included) needs to become at least 50x stronger to equal SS Broly. His FP is anybody's guess, a 2x boost seems ideal, I doubt SS Gogeta could've been fighting SS Broly on relatively even terms, and then get hit by a 10x stronger Broly and not get injured greatly.
And that would mean Vegeta grew +500x stronger in just one arc and a quarter. We've never seen that type of boost before, in fact since Namek till BoG, Goku got +30x stronger, going from 3M to 100M.

But with more reasonable multipliers, if Broly gets a 10x boost from SS, and so does Gogeta, and then maybe another 10x (Gogeta surviving that is still far-fetched), we have a total of 100x boost for Vegeta to reach. It could also be 50x for SS Broly, and 2x boost for his FP.
It is still a lot, but more feasible than my previous take.

So, what about Broly getting a 10x boost from SS, and starting with a 2x boost for his FP and rising? peaking maybe at 4x. This would mirror his ikari performance, getting a 10x boost to reach SSG level and then doubling that to force Goku into SSB. That'd make a 40x boost the goal for the saiyans to reach.

Vegeta could've gotten 20x stronger with Pybara, surpassing SS Broly and being like initial FP Broly, but still a tad below Prime Moro and Broly, and after training with Beerus for a while, just doubling his power or more, thus surpassing Broly.


I don't know, as usual, maths and DB don't mix. I feel like if in those interviews with his editor, he asked Toyo how much stronger Geets got in Yadrat, he would never say 500x or 50x, probably tops a 10x boost, and probably not even that... and the editor wouldn't cross examine him like how in hell he surpassed Broly or got close to him with such a small boost?

[Mr Baggins]

The current conversation in this thread is a stark reminder as to why "feats" can sometimes make people blind to the context of what they're talking about.

The story makes it clear, unequivocally and on multiple occasions, that both Granolah and Gas were pretty shit at wielding their new strength and had to slowly adjust over time, consequently forcing them to work for their advantages. The characters literally talk about this constantly throughout the arc. It wasn't as simple as getting X battle power and instantly stomping, although it did make them a threat.

Nothing remotely implies that SSBE Vegeta grew dramatically stronger between the Moro and Granolah arcs. His fights portray two completely different circumstances.