Well, that's why I think they complete each other: If I want to see Kuririn or Kefla fighting, I can just watch the anime; if I want to see Goku and Merged Zamasu duke it out, I can just open the manga... It's good to have two different takes on the story, although I admit this is besides the point of the threadMagnificent Ponta wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 7:47 am I personally try not to make a habit of using my reading to make comparisons between the two media. I find it has previously been kind of limiting to look at the manga strictly in comparison to the anime, because then one starts automatically thinking in terms of direct contrast of approaches rather than necessarily evaluating the approach each has chosen on its own terms (i.e., 'does it have merit for itself and do I like it as it is?', rather than 'is it different to the anime and do I like that better because (arbitrary reason x)?').
I haven't tended to find that the approach yields much insight; it more typically just feeds the Super Manga-Anime Tribalism that occasionally rears its head (most apparent in this arc, of all the arcs) and leads to tiresome stuff like grousing about individual character 'showings' and whether or not the elimination of every made-up nobody from Universe Whatever is documented in excruciating detail, rather than looking at whether the overall approach taken suits the story they're trying to tell and is a source of enjoyment in itself. I don't think I've really changed my mind about all that from when I originally wrote the Re-Read for this arc.
That seems like an awful amount of time to lose, Goku let Freeza go wild on him and then was already leaving the planet within 5 minutes. But since the fight is left for imagination, I assume Shunkan Ido might have saved Goku many times here; I doubt that's what's implied (Toyo himself doesn't seem to have given this much thought when he was busy with other plots), but I've seen many people complaining about how Goku doesn't use Shunkan Ido as much as he should.Actually, I'd say Jiren is pretty taken with Goku for a little while after the Hit fight; not with his talk, nor by any threat he might pose (nothing threatens Jiren, obviously), but he's intrigued by his capacity for insight. Goku being able to notice something about Jiren that he didn't expect makes him curious enough to see whether there's anything more to Goku than the initial unimpressive showing.
As it so happens, around 15-20 minutes further in, Jiren's concluded that there really isn't anything more to Goku than there seemed at first, and he's preparing to eliminate him all over again ("The same moves, time and time again...if that's all you've got, this is a waste of time. Allow me to end it."). That's because Goku's just been grinding himself down on Jiren by trying to best him along a criterion where he can't be beaten (that is, pure conventional Battle Power terms); he's not really using the insight that Jiren was curious about and is perhaps hoping to see a little more of. That comes next, with a little help (and of course piques Jiren's interest all over again).
Maybe he also tried some Kienzans or Ki Mines (There I go with the anime comparisons again ), but I fell Jiren would've finished Goku for good if he ever got that threatened.
Having thought some more about it, there's definitely a interesting theme about masters going on. Goku is fighting alongside his own master and still taking lessons from him, Jiren is fighting to revive his master while missing the point of his lessons. There's also some minor stuff like Vegeta saying he never had any masters, and minor character relationships like Piccolo/Gohan and Caulifla/Kale (Do the later two even count?).As you might expect, I can't agree with this; I think it lands slightly askew of the point the Chapter is trying to make. Roshi isn't teaching Goku some sort of 'greater mystery' that he's held back from him or something, and Goku hasn't regressed; Goku has indeed moved on to bigger and better. That's both the mark of his talent and the nature of his problem. Roshi is just reminding Goku of something more basic that he already knows full well, but has lost sight of because of the specific nature of the challenges he has had to face in recent decades.
Goku has been going toe-to-toe with an escalating Battle Power among his enemies (hence Roshi's "Who taught you that? Vegeta? Freeza?"), and has found various means of dealing with this that worked for him at the time (techniques and transformations: he even tries pulling a version of Kaio-Ken out in this same story beat), and are genuine progress in themselves, but this has its limits, and in this particular circumstance, a Strength-versus-Strength approach gets Goku nowhere (because Jiren is the pinnacle of that approach) and it limits him, because he already has everything he needs to get over the "wall" he was talking about earlier in the arc. It's about himself, making the best use of what he's already got.
Super likes bringing out fundamental lessons that make for genuine and new progress even at the pinnacle of power, because these are keys to making sure that the main characters stay true to themselves; that's the spur of progress. The Granolah arc will run with this kind of insight again, albeit with totally different foundations: not simply focusing on what Goku has learned as a fabulously talented Martial Artist, but also drawing in his nature as a Saiyan and more broadly as a fighter, and being able to integrate his whole self into that.
One of the things I appreciate most about the Super manga is that it takes what could have simply been a flashy, empty nostalgia trip for fanservice and nothing more, and actually makes productive and creative use of the past of the franchise and its characters in constructing the story and laying down its principal themes and beats (like in Chapter 39); it actually makes an out-and-out virtue of that stuff. That's how I feel about it, anyway.
When you think about it it's a very interesting parallel between Goku/Roshi and Jiren/Gicchin, but I'm afraid having Roshi just go there and do something he would've never managed earlier in the series, without any mention of him having trained to hone this technique in recent years, was a bit of a bold move to say the least.
I myself should be getting on with the Moro Saga before that, so hopefully I won't be making everyone retread whole sagas before.Anyhoo, next Granolah arc instalment should be coming later on Monday, all being well! See y'all then.