Opinions on the Ocean dub of movies 1-3?

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

Since everyone wants to discuss the Dameon thing. No, I don't think it fits at all and I find it hypocritical to call out Don Brown's performance as unfitting whilst giving a pass to something as horrible sounding as Dameon's semi perfect Cell. Calling that version of Cell "silly" is a very bizarre statement and misses the point of his characterization, he's a villain who is meant to be taken seriously. I can't take him seriously with that marble-mouthed voice as it just sounds like he has a speech impediment. It's not intimidating or adequately monstrous. If they wanted to take it in a more monstrous route you'd just cast an actor with a deeper voice. I honestly think those who are fine with it are just used to hearing it and thus don't question it. Dameon has done great voices, but that's not one of them.

Funny how Daemon did legit good voices for Imperfect and Perfect Cell which fit his appearance in each, yet the semi form is the one he missed the mark with though two out of three ain't bad. Though granted out of them all the latter is the one he spends the shortest amount of time in during his run in the show so at least you don't have to hear it for very long. Though i guess it would've been better had someone else done Semi Cell and kept the other two forms same, but they decided to go with having Daemon do all three forms and it happened to be the middle form that got the bad performance.

[ABED]

The voice fits the look of the character. Part of what a good performance does is fit the look. Many of the Ocean dub voices fit to a T, like David Squatch Ward as Ox-King.

And Don Brown's performance fits the look and the character. Some don't like it because they think the silly voice undercuts the gravity of anything that's supposed to have dramatic weight. I like the juxtaposition of a goofy voice and the drama. He makes it work whereas Schemmel couldn't.

[WittyUsername]

Did anyone in this thread even claim that dub voices have to sound like the Japanese voices?

OP took issue with Ocean's voice casting. Clearly, they weren't saying they should sound more like the Funimation/in-house voice cast (as in this case, the Kaio voice is based on the Ocean one), which only leaves one option left. It's a very common opinion on these forums to push for voice accuracy toward Japanese performances. I don't always agree with that but it is what it is. If people want voice accuracy to Japanese I at least expect them to be consistent in their opinions.

Since everyone wants to discuss the Dameon thing. No, I don't think it fits at all and I find it hypocritical to call out Don Brown's performance as unfitting whilst giving a pass to something as horrible sounding as Dameon's semi perfect Cell. Calling that version of Cell "silly" is a very bizarre statement and misses the point of his characterization, he's a villain who is meant to be taken seriously. I can't take him seriously with that marble-mouthed voice as it just sounds like he has a speech impediment. It's not intimidating or adequately monstrous. If they wanted to take it in a more monstrous route you'd just cast an actor with a deeper voice. I honestly think those who are fine with it are just used to hearing it and thus don't question it. Dameon has done great voices, but that's not one of them.

As for Don Brown and Kaio, you can at least make the argument that the character is often unmistakably used for comedic relief, and thus a silly voice can fit. The attempts at accurate English casting for Kaio (Michael McConnohie) also haven't really been well executed in my opinion.

People can dislike certain Ocean voices for reasons that don’t involve whether or not they sound like their Japanese counterparts. Hell, a common consensus on these forums seems to be that Ian James Corlett is the best Ocean voice for Goku, but he sounds absolutely nothing like Masako Nozawa.

As for Semi-Perfect Cell, I’m still not sure why you felt the need to bring that up, but Cell in general is difficult to take seriously in that form, between his goofy design, to his whiny blowhard personality, to the fact that he gets thrashed around quite a bit, and the fact that last we see him, he’s a comically bulbous blob. In any case, as I mentioned earlier, Cell doesn’t spend much time in that form, so even if we agreed that Dameon Clarke’s voice was ill-fitting, it doesn’t really matter much, because that’s not the voice he uses for Cell’s other two forms.

[NitroEX]

People can dislike certain Ocean voices for reasons that don’t involve whether or not they sound like their Japanese counterparts. Hell, a common consensus on these forums seems to be that Ian James Corlett is the best Ocean voice for Goku, but he sounds absolutely nothing like Masako Nozawa.

I've already explained my reasoning enough already.

If you go back and read the original post it literally starts off by mentioning the dub as being one of the most accurate adaptations. It then goes on to say it was a step in the right direction but... and then lists off some critiques, which included Kaio's voice being an issue. Anyone with that context (along with the fact we're on a forum with dedicated fans of the original Japanese version) would draw the conclusion that OP wanted a more faithful voice to the Japanese as they didn't mention anything else in their critique.

For you to sidestep all of this context and pretend I'm crazy for responding to someone's (admittedly vague) critique is pretty weird to me. You're not the person who made those initial criticisms to begin with. If they want to clarify or engage in that particular point then they can, you speaking on their behalf is what I find a little weird.

Corlett, I don't think I need to get into. Most of us understand there's a nostalgia factor there that endears his voice to us, along with his performance generally holding up in retrospect compared to a novice Schemmel.

As for Semi-Perfect Cell, I’m still not sure why you felt the need to bring that up, but Cell in general is difficult to take seriously in that form, between his goofy design, to his whiny blowhard personality, to the fact that he gets thrashed around quite a bit, and the fact that last we see him, he’s a comically bulbous blob. In any case, as I mentioned earlier, Cell doesn’t spend much time in that form, so even if we agreed that Dameon Clarke’s voice was ill-fitting, it doesn’t really matter much, because that’s not the voice he uses for Cell’s other two forms.

I've already mentioned both voices being inaccurate and having a form of speech impediment. There was nothing more beyond that and I had no idea people were going to overanalyze such a comment.

Time spent in the form really is irrelevant here and feels like a reach honestly.

His design is definitely not goofy. He's the tallest of the three forms and was obviously designed to look like a dangerous villain. The only thing odd about his form would be the lips, but that's not enough to warrant having a silly voice.

The fact that he gets thrashed is just Toriyama's way of putting Super Vegeta over as the next awesome thing. He's so awesome that he can wreck this scary monster villain that everyone else is afraid of. It's all part of the drama that Toriyama was creating. The goal wasn't to make Cell look pathetic and silly all the time, it was to show how much Vegeta had advanced. Semi-Perfect Cell was still very much a threat. The only time I agree that he was silly looking was before he blew up but that's hardly something that I would consider when casting the voice. I'd be open to a more monstrous-sounding voice as a deviation from the Japanese if it improved on the character (Don Brown's Kaio has merit in the comedy aspect at least) but I don't think that version of Cell is a good take, it diminishes the character if anything. Both the Japanese and Ocean versions of Semi-Perfect Cell can be taken seriously because they just spoke normally.

[WittyUsername]

I've already explained my reasoning enough already.

If you go back and read the original post it literally starts off by mentioning the dub as being one of the most accurate adaptations. It then goes on to say it was a step in the right direction but... and then lists off some critiques, which included Kaio's voice being an issue. Anyone with that context (along with the fact we're on a forum with dedicated fans of the original Japanese version) would draw the conclusion that OP wanted a more faithful voice to the Japanese as they didn't mention anything else in their critique.

For you to sidestep all of this context and pretend I'm crazy for responding to someone's (admittedly vague) critique is pretty weird to me. You're not the person who made those initial criticisms to begin with. If they want to clarify or engage in that particular point then they can, you speaking on their behalf is what I find a little weird.

Corlett, I don't think I need to get into. Most of us understand there's a nostalgia factor there that endears his voice to us, along with his performance generally holding up in retrospect compared to a novice Schemmel.

No one is calling you crazy. I can assure you, I’m not trying to attack you. I just don’t see any reason to come to the conclusion you came to regarding why the OP didn’t like those specific voices. If anything, based on what the OP said, it seems like their problem is more that they think those particular voices sound too one-note “cartoony,” if that makes sense. Of course, I could very well be wrong.

I've already mentioned both voices being inaccurate and having a form of speech impediment. There was nothing more beyond that and I had no idea people were going to overanalyze such a comment.

Time spent in the form really is irrelevant here and feels like a reach honestly.

His design is definitely not goofy. He's the tallest of the three forms and was obviously designed to look like a dangerous villain. The only thing odd about his form would be the lips, but that's not enough to warrant having a silly voice.

The fact that he gets thrashed is just Toriyama's way of putting Super Vegeta over as the next awesome thing. He's so awesome that he can wreck this scary monster villain that everyone else is afraid of. It's all part of the drama that Toriyama was creating. The goal wasn't to make Cell look pathetic and silly all the time, it was to show how much Vegeta had advanced. Semi-Perfect Cell was still very much a threat. The only time I agree that he was silly looking was before he blew up but that's hardly something that I would consider when casting the voice. I'd be open to a more monstrous-sounding voice as a deviation from the Japanese if it improved on the character (Don Brown's Kaio has merit in the comedy aspect at least) but I don't think that version of Cell is a good take, it diminishes the character if anything. Both the Japanese and Ocean versions of Semi-Perfect Cell can be taken seriously because they just spoke normally.

I wouldn’t consider the amount of time Cell spent in that form to be irrelevant. The point was that Semi-Perfect Cell is a fairly minor role in the grand scheme of things, whereas Kaio is a major recurring character, who, while not without his silly moments, is also meant to be a wise mentor with authority. For what it’s worth, I myself am indifferent to Don Brown’s Kaio/King Kai. I do think he works a bit better than Sean Schemmel’s take.

I would also have to disagree with you on Semi-Perfect Cell’s design not being goofy. He’s by far Cell’s silliest looking form, and was even used as the basis for a certain Internet meme from the late 2000s. Even Toriyama’s editor thought he looked stupid. I suppose it’s ultimately subjective, but I’ve seen many people agree that Cell is at his least menacing and effective while he’s in that form. He comes off more like a whiny brute than a creepy horror villain like Imperfect Cell or an intelligent and charismatic final boss like Perfect Cell.

[ABED]

The Cell discussion can be its own thread if anyone cares to make it one.

[OmegaRockman]

I still think Kai and the current movies have the best English dubs of anything DB-related, but the Ocean movies are definitely really close. Good ADR scripts, great cast/direction, and keeping the music all make for some great dubs. I do have nitpicks about one or two lines and reads, and the added sound effects can be distracting since DB has a very distinctive sound to it that those added effects mess with for me (I have the same issue with Super, but at least those sound effects sound closer to the originals than Hanna Barbera stuff), but those are nitpicks. Overall, the Ocean movies are fantastic dubs and I'll happily watch them any day.

[90sDBZ]

These movies are what made me appreciate Kelamis as Goku. Before seeing them my only exposure to his Goku had been his brief stint in Season 2, and his Westwood dub performance in the Android/Cell saga which suffered from being rushed/poor direction.

I still prefer Schemmel and Corlett, but Kelamis is now my 3rd favourite. I've grown to appreciate his goofy delivery in the comedic scenes, and his screams are awesome.

For someone who only voiced the character for short stretches and never covered the more iconic scenes, he did a surprisingly decent job. Literally the majority of his scenes in the show were filler, ie. training for namek, training for the Androids, the driving episode, screaming whilst unconscious with the heart virus, and training in the Time Chamber.

Aside from the movies, the only big moments he covered were Goku vs Recoome, Goku vs 19, and Goku's first meeting with Cell. It must be hard getting a proper grasp of a character you've only voiced on and off for short periods.

[8000 Saiyan]

They're still my favorite way of watching the first three movies along with the Japanese version.

Along with Kai and the current stuff, they're an example of what a Dragon Ball dub should be.

[BootyCheeksJohnson]

I should probably provide some clarification. My thoughts on the voice for Kaio in the Ocean dub (and Schemmel's imitation by extent) is that the voice is too goofy and one note to take seriously. It undercuts the character's status as a wise deity who has spent millennia watching over the north quadrant of the galaxy. The fact that he's also a blue catfish man is just part of Toriyama's unique style of subversion, and showing us how someone unassuming can have more to them than meets the eye. I also think the performance is bad. It's similar to my gripes with Muten Roshi and Krillin's voices in those movies. However I don't think Kaio's very limited screen time in movie 3 has the same negative effect on that movie as Roshi's does in movie 2. (Also movie 3 just sucks in general, but that's personal opinions.) Any moment he talked I found impossible to take seriously because he sounded like a parody of an old man instead of a wise martial artist. As for Krillin I don't think I've seen a single person defend his Ocean dub voice/performance.
And because the comparison keeps coming up I do think that Semi Perfect Cell's Funimation voice is bad and undercuts any threatening vibe that the form should have. There. Hope my feelings are clear now.
Also if you want to continue the Cell discussion a new fourm can be made for it.

[MasenkoHA]

and his Westwood dub performance in the Android/Cell saga which suffered from being rushed/poor direction.

I dunno from the few episodes of the Westwood dub I've seen I think he worked best there. Something about his Ninja Turtle performance and the goofy Megaman music just go together.

[ABED]

I should probably provide some clarification. My thoughts on the voice for Kaio in the Ocean dub (and Schemmel's imitation by extent) is that the voice is too goofy and one note to take seriously. It undercuts the character's status as a wise deity who has spent millennia watching over the north quadrant of the galaxy. The fact that he's also a blue catfish man is just part of Toriyama's unique style of subversion, and showing us how someone unassuming can have more to them than meets the eye. I also think the performance is bad. It's similar to my gripes with Muten Roshi and Krillin's voices in those movies. However I don't think Kaio's very limited screen time in movie 3 has the same negative effect on that movie as Roshi's does in movie 2. (Also movie 3 just sucks in general, but that's personal opinions.) Any moment he talked I found impossible to take seriously because he sounded like a parody of an old man instead of a wise martial artist. As for Krillin I don't think I've seen a single person defend his Ocean dub voice/performance.
And because the comparison keeps coming up I do think that Semi Perfect Cell's Funimation voice is bad and undercuts any threatening vibe that the form should have. There. Hope my feelings are clear now.
Also if you want to continue the Cell discussion a new fourm can be made for it.

Now Klassen as Kuririn is bad? How does his voice sound goofy? Muten Roshi's dub voice, I get, but Kuririn? i'll defend it. I wasn't aware people didn't like it.

I feel like for many, if a character is "threatening" they must look and sound threatening all the time. If they are to be taken seriously, they can't sound goofy? The performance is definitely not too one note. He's able to emote within that performance. In fact, Kaio tends to be more goofy than serious, anyway.

And since no one will make it its own thing, second form Cell is still threatening, just doesn't have to sound like that all the time since he has two other forms. Sometimes the most threatening person is the petulant childish jerk. That's what makes them scary when they finally lash out. Toriyama may have been going for sinister, but he missed the mark. Even his editor pointed it out. Mike Tyson has a goofy sounding voice, but the guy was definitely threatening. You talk about Brown's Kaio being too one note, but what you are asking for is also one note. It's just "threatening". Is that his identity in that form? Threatening? In the first form, he's creepy. The third form, he's arrogant. What I think works about the second form is he's arrogant, but he's incomplete. So having him sound dumb helps add to the scenes where he starts throwing a temper tantrum. It lulls you into a false sense of safety. He's goofy, perhaps, but his threat isn't even from just this form. He still has cunning and another form. His threat isn't just his strength. He uses Vegeta's hubris against him.

[BootyCheeksJohnson]

Look at the Japanese actor for Cell. He uses the same voice across all of Cell's forms, and he manages to display the full scope of emotions without going overboard. He manages to sound arrogant, dumbstruck, and so on just fine with a more, I guess standard sounding voice. I tend to share our co-founder Mike's opinion on Funimation style (and I'm guessing Ocean by proxy) Kaio. In this site's review for Kai's English dub he mentioned that the voice more often than not gets in the way of the actor giving a convincing performance. An actor with unique vocal qualities is going to sound better than a guy "doing a voice". As he put it. (I hope I'm not misreading/representing what was said in that review.) I'm not a fan of Ian Corlett's portrayal of Goku, but I think he tends to fit in the former category. The same could be applied to Sabat's Piccolo.
I doubt that we're going to agree on this topic, but I feel like I've explained my stance the best I can.

[ABED]

In the case of Kaio, Schemmel's voice does get in the way of the performance, but Brown doesn't.

Wakamoto is amazing, but I do prefer the distinctions between the different forms as Cell shows different sides of himself in those different forms. Wakamoto's second form voice isn't all that different from the others, so it comes off as generic villain voice because the writing is generic villain. The problem is the writing and the drawing. Second form Cell isn't that interesting, and the goofy form doesn't help matters. It's unintentionally funny and works best when they don't overplay it as something to be taken seriously. Second form Cell isn't limited to scary and serious. He's childish and petulant. "Threatening" is such a vague adjective that it's not helpful. There are plenty of ways to come across as threatening than just being serious. In fact, it works in its favor that he's almost not taken seriously that Clarke and Toriyama's writing is good enough where at the end when he's used Vegeta's hubris to help him in his goal and when he's an unstoppable monster who finally absorbs 18. I like the juxtaposition. It reminds me of Kurt Angle in WWE. He is a legit Olympic gold medalist in wrestling, but his character was this nerdy, uptight, goofball, so much so that it lulled you into a false sense of security that you forget that he's dangerous. But when he makes that switch, it works incredibly well because he has believability as a wrestler. The goofy side doesn't undercut him. It only adds to his character.

I really think this all boils down to "He doesn't sound serious, so I can't take him serious." And often I think people, even on this forum, forget how silly Dragon Ball is at its core.

An actor with unique vocal qualities is going to sound better than a guy "doing a voice"

I find this reductive as plenty of the original cast put on voices. Also, it's odd given that Kaio is a giant blue catfish. He is definitely a wise martial arts master but I think both the orignal and Brown's take work well. Both provide juxtaposition between what he looks like and his more godly aspects.

Lastly, what's your issue with Kuririn's Ocean Dub voice? That sounds more or less like a natural voice.

The only two voices I could never get on board with for the Ocean dub of these three movies were Kelamis and Matt Smith. Smith is awful. He tries to convey tough and is unconvincing.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

and his Westwood dub performance in the Android/Cell saga which suffered from being rushed/poor direction.

I dunno from the few episodes of the Westwood dub I've seen I think he worked best there. Something about his Ninja Turtle performance and the goofy Megaman music just go together.

I've been rewatching the Westwood dub recently, and I still feel Kelamis leaves something to be desired. Kirby Morrow was a step up from Kelamis for that dub because although he had less amazing days and less bad days his performance was more consistent.

An actor with unique vocal qualities is going to sound better than a guy "doing a voice"

For what it's worth Kelamis said in a UKDB interview in 2001 with Duncan Roberts he loves playing characters where he gets to use an accent.

[ATA]

In my opinion. While the script is accurate..I can't with the voices you. The voices gives 80s North American cartoon vibes. I can at BEST do small snippets but overall I can't picture myself watching the movies with the ocean dub. Now Funimation was 100% ass for movies 1-3(However Turles's voice actor is very underrated) so I think that's why people look at the Ocean trilogy in better light.

[MasenkoHA]

I think Funimation's redub of World Strongest with the Japanese score turned out okay. Chuck Huber's Pilaf/Garlic Jr voice got on my nerves too much and Nadolny really doesn't work for crybaby era Gohan which brings Dead Zone down and Tree of Might had that whole "lets base our uncut version on the Saban approved censored version" working against it.

[ABED]

In my opinion. While the script is accurate..I can't with the voices you. The voices gives 80s North American cartoon vibes. I can at BEST do small snippets but overall I can't picture myself watching the movies with the ocean dub. Now Funimation was 100% ass for movies 1-3(However Turles's voice actor is very underrated) so I think that's why people look at the Ocean trilogy in better light.

I grew up on 80s cartoons and I don't get that vibe at all.

I don't think the reaction people have to the Ocean dub has anything to do with the redub. I'm not sure if they've seen it.

[ATA]

Goku talks in a more ghetto way (for a lack of better terms) that I think is in character.

He speaks country not "Ghetto".

In my opinion. While the script is accurate..I can't with the voices you. The voices gives 80s North American cartoon vibes. I can at BEST do small snippets but overall I can't picture myself watching the movies with the ocean dub. Now Funimation was 100% ass for movies 1-3(However Turles's voice actor is very underrated) so I think that's why people look at the Ocean trilogy in better light.

I grew up on 80s cartoons and I don't get that vibe at all.

I don't think the reaction people have to the Ocean dub has anything to do with the redub. I'm not sure if they've seen it.

Usually when I see people praise the Ocean dub they do it to mock/shame the Funimation dub. Instead of just praising Ocean on it's own.

[MasenkoHA]

Usually when I see people praise the Ocean dub they do it to mock/shame the Funimation dub. Instead of just praising Ocean on it's own.

I think that's making fun of Funimation in general not just specifically their redub of the first 3 Z movies