Deep Thoughts: The Cell Games

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ABED
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Deep Thoughts: The Cell Games

Post by ABED » Wed Mar 01, 2023 11:42 am

So we come to the Cell Games. While there is a lot to like here, there's a lot that doesn't work for various reasons. One of the biggest reasons is it feels unnecessarily stretched out. I think it's due to cutaways to the commentary from the Z Team. It's less obvious filler than say Fake Namek or Bulma and the crab or the constant cutaways to what Chichi was doing on Earth during the Freeza fight. They're supposedly offering valuable insight into the fight and supposed to accentuate the drama. Instead, it feels like in Baseball when the batter and pitcher make adjustments. It's small but it's done so often that those seconds add up and practically double the length of the game. The period before the Cell Games also feels stretched out. I appreciate Toriyama and Toei doing something different by not just showing the Z Team train and convey an ominous air like in story arcs past, but rather they show us the characters trying to enjoy life. It's a good reminder of what they are fighting for. That said, it goes on for a while.

On to the tournament itself, we meet one of my favorites, the World Champion of Combat Sports, Mr. Satan. Oh, hi Mark. We meet him a little earlier in the anime (don't know about the manga), but whatever. When I first read the manga summaries, I hated him, but he's like Andy Bernard from The Office, once I grew to like him, I retroactively liked even the earlier parts before all the development. That doesn't always happen. Sometimes even if I know where the character ends up, the earlier version I dislike still bothers me. Tara from Buffy is such a character.

The fight between Goku and Cell is good, though not as good as 17 vs. Piccolo, but it's certainly better than Gohan vs. Cell. I don't have much in the way of analysis of Goku's fight other than it's intense, but the dragging things out hurts it a lot. An actual ending would've made up for it, but it's only here to build up to him tagging in Gohan. So we come to the much debated part of this arc – Gohan vs. Cell. I'm not a fan of it for a number of reasons. The major one is Gohan regresses, and there's no link between him and Cell, not even as the fight progresses. It still feels like Goku vs. Cell with Gohan acting as Goku's proxy. Gohan started this arc wanting to help out. He turns Super Saiyan because he realized he's constantly had to be protected and let people down. Now he's antsy and doesn't want to fight? It's a dilemma that comes out of nowhere and what's worse, it isn't resolved. We don't see change, we don't see growth, and in the next arc, we see he hasn't kept up with his training. It's a miracle Gohan transforming into Super Saiyan 2 works as well as it does. I think the song and Nozawa's performance does A LOT of heavy lifting. And what causes it? No. 16 telling Gohan that it's okay to fight if it's defend something or someone you care about. Gohan knows this! This is what sets him off? I appreciate No. 16 being used. If he hadn't been, what purpose does he serve in the narrative? But still, the thing that causes Gohan to unleash his hidden power is someone telling him something he knew for a while. And this is not a character arc. The story wasn't always leading to Gohan tapping his full power. Fat load of good it does him if he isn't emotionally stable enough to make use of it. If it's just about his power, that's not a character arc. Let's go back a bit, It feels like Goku's strategy isn't in character at all. It's all done with the idea of surprising the audience because Toriyama can't figure out a way of hiding the set up. Goku senses Gohan's hidden power while training in the Room of Spirit and Time and he doesn't bother spending his time teaching Gohan how to harness it? Hiding set ups is difficult. Audiences are savvy so it can be easy to see what a writer or director is trying to set up earlier even if they don't focus on it. Surprises are wonderful. Few things are better than a genuine and well executed surprise, but if I have to choose between a mediocre surprise or an obvious set up, I'll choose the obvious set up. I'd also like to point out that Goku knows Gohan wants to be a scholar, so for those folks claiming Goku doesn't know his son, that's disproven here. Piccolo's line about what Gohan was thinking "why won't my dad help me? Does he care more about the fight than me?" was not actually what Gohan was thinking. It's obvious that it's what PICCOLO is thinking.

Probably the biggest gripe I have about the battle itself is that Gohan has his hand held the ENTIRE time. He has his arm shattered and while I get the desire to give up when faced with something overwhelming, he's the supposedly taking over as the main character and not only does he have to be convinced to not give up, Goku tells him what to do and when. Third act problems are first act problems. It's a simplistic phrase, but there is so much truth to it. Could this character arc have made sense? Yes, if we set it up prior. We begin with Gohan wanting to be of use. I'm not sure what beats the story would need from get to point A to Z, but this wasn't it. Some have said he changed in the Room of Spirit and Time. Okay, but we don't see that journey. We see some training and Gohan maturing but we don't see a point where Gohan asks, "why are we doing all of this? What's this really for? I don't enjoy fighting and it seems we constantly find ourselves in this position because of our lust for battle." None of that's there and if we're gonna tell that story, that's not something you skip over and let the audience fill in the blanks. Some stuff you can, but not that since it's supposedly the damn point.

That said, there's plenty to love about the final episodes of the arc, such as the rest of the Z Team pitching in despite knowing they can't do anything and saying how much they love Goku and Gohan. I believe it's absent from the manga, but it's one of the best uses of filler ever. It gets me choked up. I love the image of Goku standing behind Gohan as he fires the final Kamehameha. I may have not liked every step in the development, but Vegeta going from a guy who didn't care if his baby and baby mama might have died to flipping out over his son's death and giving him a subtle nod of affirmation are some of my favorite moments of Vegeta's. Oh, and finally the Kamehameha saves the day!

Last, but not least, ending the arc with Trunks saving his future is incredibly cathartic. The arc is so long and while I know we could've drawn the conclusion on our own that Trunks brought peace to his timeline, we've spent so much time with him, seeing it play out feels right. It's good knowing that after living his entire life in fear and despair, he gets to live the remainder of his days in peace… Oh, mother f-----!

Random Thoughts:
Why is most of the Z Team terrible at analyzing these battles? They mostly over or underestimate the skills of the participants. For instance, why would any of them actually believe Cell was in danger of being knocked out of bounds?
Gohan's outfit looks like Piccolo's; I prefer that to looking like Goku's. It's like he pays tribute to his two teachers. Namekians have clothing powers?
Piroshiki is clearly an homage Big Van Vader. It's time, it's time, it's Vader time!

The Dub:
Chris Rager is a fantastic Mr. Satan. I imagine the direction was simply "Think 80's wrestler".
The monolog instead of silence as Gohan snaps and transforms is one of the worst moments in the dub.
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Re: Deep Thoughts: The Cell Games

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Mar 01, 2023 2:00 pm

Peanut gallery filler aside, the Goku vs Cell fight to me is fantastic.
It's a little drawn out, yes, the warm up seems to be enough to wear anybody out, they went over pretty much every technique they had, but that's what you'd expect from two fighting sickos having a nice time.
Also, it's the only fight I can remember Goku going all out and not ending up with his clothes ripped to pieces. His orange gi is pretty much intact and so are his pants.

The Gohan part of the arc I never liked. Not only Gohan is set on not fighting, even though he knows what's at stake and who Cell is, he is still trying to be the bigger man, even before having the upper hand. I enjoy his rage outburst mostly because it puts an end to the whiny part of the arc.
And, yes, no relationship with Cell or with 16 for the robot's "death" to be what triggers him. I mean, his dad, friends, tutor, people he grew up with were being tortured to death, but a bodyless robot he had no interactions with getting stepped on is what triggers him? he wasn't even alive!
I do like how drunk with power he gets, and how Goku's plan backfired because he was trusting Earth to a fucking child with insecurities issues.

Trivia we all know by now: Gohan destroys 8 Cell Jrs.

There's something that always bugged me, didn't they revive all the people killed by Cell? that's how Trunks comes back, but of course, can't revive Goku because he had already died. So, why didn't Kaiosama, Gregory and Bubbles come back, just like Trunks? Am I misremembering the wishes? when Trunks was brought back, everybody sans Goku should've come back as well. Unless Kaio and Bubbles had already died before and were revived by... somebody, off-screen.

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Re: Deep Thoughts: The Cell Games

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Wed Mar 01, 2023 2:22 pm

ABED wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 11:42 am I'd also like to point out that Goku knows Gohan wants to be a scholar, so for those folks claiming Goku doesn't know his son, that's disproven here. Piccolo's line about what Gohan was thinking "why won't my dad help me? Does he care more about the fight than me?" was not actually what Gohan was thinking. It's obvious that it's what PICCOLO is thinking.
I think people's biggest gripe with Goku during that scene is that, as Piccolo explains, he is oblivious to the fact Gohan doesn't fight for the thrill of it. Goku was expecting Gohan to think like him, enjoy a good fight and when he's pushed to the edge he will find the power he needs to win. Goku lives to fight, but for Gohan it's the reverse. Of course we see the shocked look on Goku's face when he understands what Piccolo was telling him as it was plain as day when he let's go of his own bias.
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Re: Deep Thoughts: The Cell Games

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Mar 01, 2023 2:57 pm

For all the talks fans have of the series going harder into sci-fi even the most sci-fi heavy arc ends up concluding at a martial arts tournament.

The decision to make Gohan the main character seemed pretty out of left field. He was no more important than Krillin and Piccolo in the Freeza saga and spent a good deal of the Android storyline even further in the background. Did Toriyama feel like he exhausted all potential with Goku as a lead (he became the world champion of martial arts, discovered the secret of his past, and fulfilled an ancient prophecy what else is there?) and decided if he wanted to keep making that Dragon Ball money Gohan was his best bet as a lead?

This arc did not give me the best impression of Mr.Satan but he'll redeem himself in the Boo saga.

The dub has a weird moment where Cell says Kienzan when using Freeza's attack on Goku. I don't know if Funimation was being cute by giving it the Japanese name for Krillin's similar signature attack that they changed to destructo disk or someone fucked up and thought the attack was called Kienzan.

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Re: Deep Thoughts: The Cell Games

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Wed Mar 01, 2023 3:22 pm

The decision to make Gohan the main character seemed pretty out of left field. He was no more important than Krillin and Piccolo in the Freeza saga and spent a good deal of the Android storyline even further in the background. Did Toriyama feel like he exhausted all potential with Goku as a lead (he became the world champion of martial arts, discovered the secret of his past, and fulfilled an ancient prophecy what else is there?) and decided if he wanted to keep making that Dragon Ball money Gohan was his best bet as a lead?
Then of course Toriyama ended up reversing course come early in the Buu arc, I guess because he eventually realized that Gohan just wouldn't work as the protagonist.
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Re: Deep Thoughts: The Cell Games

Post by ABED » Wed Mar 01, 2023 3:28 pm

Dragon Ball Ireland wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 2:22 pm
ABED wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 11:42 am I'd also like to point out that Goku knows Gohan wants to be a scholar, so for those folks claiming Goku doesn't know his son, that's disproven here. Piccolo's line about what Gohan was thinking "why won't my dad help me? Does he care more about the fight than me?" was not actually what Gohan was thinking. It's obvious that it's what PICCOLO is thinking.
I think people's biggest gripe with Goku during that scene is that, as Piccolo explains, he is oblivious to the fact Gohan doesn't fight for the thrill of it. Goku was expecting Gohan to think like him, enjoy a good fight and when he's pushed to the edge he will find the power he needs to win. Goku lives to fight, but for Gohan it's the reverse. Of course we see the shocked look on Goku's face when he understands what Piccolo was telling him as it was plain as day when he let's go of his own bias.
That feels like a distinction without a difference. He knows Gohan wants to be a scholar. He tells him that if he wants to be a scholar, he needs to defeat Cell first. It would be one thing if Goku was genuinely confused by this. Gohan was all for training for the cyborgs despite knowing there was a more sensible solution. If they showed Goku seeing that and being confused that his son didn't love fighting, that I would understand. By saying if Gohan wants to be a scholar, he's acknowledging Gohan has greater desires than battle.
This arc did not give me the best impression of Mr.Satan but he'll redeem himself in the Boo saga.
This works in its favor. I see a lot of shows and movies that try to make you hate someone but with the intention of changing the audience's perception of them later, often with some sad backstory. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. Often, they halfass the part where we're supposed to hate them, and it all feels perfunctory or caricaturish. Here, Toriyama is simply writing what he thinks is a fun character.
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Re: Deep Thoughts: The Cell Games

Post by Super Sonic » Wed Mar 01, 2023 4:27 pm

Know a few folks say they thought Cell's destruction was the best use of the "Ginyu Transformation" theme that played in the dub when big things went down.

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Re: Deep Thoughts: The Cell Games

Post by jjgp1112 » Wed Mar 01, 2023 4:33 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 2:57 pm For all the talks fans have of the series going harder into sci-fi even the most sci-fi heavy arc ends up concluding at a martial arts tournament.

The decision to make Gohan the main character seemed pretty out of left field. He was no more important than Krillin and Piccolo in the Freeza saga and spent a good deal of the Android storyline even further in the background. Did Toriyama feel like he exhausted all potential with Goku as a lead (he became the world champion of martial arts, discovered the secret of his past, and fulfilled an ancient prophecy what else is there?) and decided if he wanted to keep making that Dragon Ball money Gohan was his best bet as a lead?

This arc did not give me the best impression of Mr.Satan but he'll redeem himself in the Boo saga.

The dub has a weird moment where Cell says Kienzan when using Freeza's attack on Goku. I don't know if Funimation was being cute by giving it the Japanese name for Krillin's similar signature attack that they changed to destructo disk or someone fucked up and thought the attack was called Kienzan.
IIRC I think the Kienzan thing is only on the Season sets, which of course uses an unrevised take of the dub VA audio

Edit: nvm, went and searched and saw discussion about it on here predating the sets!
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Re: Deep Thoughts: The Cell Games

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Mar 01, 2023 7:32 pm

Super Sonic wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 4:27 pm Know a few folks say they thought Cell's destruction was the best use of the "Ginyu Transformation" theme that played in the dub when big things went down.
I’d definitely say it’s the most memorable use of that theme.

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