Deep Thoughts: Trunks TV Special, Movies 5, 6, 7

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Deep Thoughts: Trunks TV Special, Movies 5, 6, 7

Post by ABED » Tue Feb 28, 2023 12:47 pm

The History of Trunks
Japanese Title: Defiance in the Face of Despair!! The Remaining Superwarriors, Gohan and Trunks

It's really interesting that both DBZ TV specials are tragedies. I enjoy it but I'm glad it only runs the length of two episodes instead of an entire arc. That would be a lot to take. Of the two specials, I think Bardock is my favorite as it feels like a more singular story instead a bunch of beats the story has to hit. The Bardock special wasn't about explaining anything. It showed one part of his life, his futile last stand against Freeza. This one ends on a nice hopeful note, though. The one thing I would like to bring up is that in the manga version, Trunks is already a Super Saiyan, whereas the TV special does the logical thing and has Gohan's death trigger his transformation. I don't get the logic of having him already be a Super Saiyan. What could trigger the transformation if not that? Also, it feels like such a DUH thing to do.

Dub:
I didn't spot check the script so I don't remember how good it was, but the performances were good from what I can remember. This was probably Vollmer's best performance, probably because she was just being earnest. Playing Bulma's young and vain personality didn't play to her strengths

Home Video:
Along with Bardock TV special, they're missing the eyecatches.
I don't know much about technology, so I have zero idea why the original DVD release has a separate Title track for different parts of the movie. The film is broken up into four – the opening song, the opening scene to the main title, the body of the TV special, ending credits.

Cooler's Revenge
Japanese title: The Extraordinary Mightiest vs. Mightiest. The US title is the better title. I like the use of the villains' names as titles. It's short and to the point, as opposed to generic, or even worse, long and generic.

Like most of the movies, it's short and to the point. The plot is simple, Freeza's brother wants revenge. That doesn't require a long overly complicated plot or a drawn out runtime. I've grown tired of long runtimes. Get in, make your point, and get out. I don't know how much truth there is to human beings' attention spans getting shorter, but if it's true, why does it feel like films are getting longer? Anyway, the fights are pretty good and Piccolo has some awesome moments like frying Naise's with his own technique and killing Sauzer at the end. The fight against Coola could've been a tad longer and better but I have no complaints. This film has one of my favorite endings. There's a great set up with letting a Saiyan baby get away and then realizing who the baby grew up to be and he was just as "soft" as Freeza, that he should've killed the child way back when. That's great writing. Last but not least, as if there weren't enough reasons to love Nakao, his performance as Freeza's brother is similar but subtly different. Freeza is more hoity toity, whereas Coola is just cold. Thank you. Remember to tip your waitress.

Karin's a prick expecting Gohan would climb the tower. The plant and payoff with the senzu in Gohan's belt was a good one. I could do without the replay of Yajirobe giving him the bean as if we don't remember 20 minutes ago. I don't like when movies do it. It's fair if it's a TV show and enough episodes have past if the audience didn't remember the set up. Though I suppose I'd rather be hit over the head than be confused and feel stupid for not remembering something that apparently everyone else seems to recall even though it was 15 episodes prior. I exaggerate, but you get the point.

Random Thoughts:
Yeah, the bird is cheesy.
Why with Gohan's tail? It doesn't even play into the plot.
Was The Shredder an influence?

Dub:
Why did they use Cooler instead of Coola?
I forgot to spot check the dub. I don't remember Coola's dub voice or the quality of the performance. My guess is it wasn't terrible, but not great either. It's simply not memorable.

The Return of Cooler
Japanese Title: Charge!! 10 Billion Power Warriors

I think I prefer the previous Coola film, but the fight against Metal Coola is the more interesting battle. Part of what makes it interesting is when it becomes a 2 on 1 battle once Vegeta enters the fray. It's Vegeta's movie debut and he makes the most of it. The movie's plot is basically a rehash of the Freeza arc but includes an AI as big as a planet called "The Big Gete Star". Why is it called a star? Dunno. Don't want to come off as insensitive but is this a quirk of the Japanese language? Thankfully it's not overwritten as some movies, especially modern blockbusters tend to be. The idea of a sentient computer subsuming everything in its path, including organic material, is really scary. I think it's creeped me out since THAT scene in Superman III. After Goku and Vegeta survive the battle against Metal Coola by the skin of their teeth, an army of metal Coolas charge at them. After a flash, the movie cuts to them tied up in the center/brain of Coola/the Big Gete Star, who gets overwhelmed by the "endless" power of the Super Saiyans. Vegeta and Goku barely survive one so cutting after they are swarmed by an army of Coola's feels like a narrative cheat. That's my big gripe. Once again, it's a short and fun movie.

Random Thoughts:
Where was the manga at the point of this movie's production and release? Did they guess that Dende would be the new Kami?
If I recall, in the series, the planet the Namekians were sent to was a copy of the old one. I don’t remember that being the wish. Wasn't the wish simply to send them to a habitable planet?
Why is Oolong in the movie? He is brought along for this and movie 8, and I can't figure out why. Is it because he's there as comedic relief? He's not that funny.

Home Video:
If you stay through the credits on the DVD, there is a trailer where Goku previews movie 7, but it only plays after the original Japanese version. I don't think I've ever seen anyone talk about this 30 second trailer.

Super Android 13!
Japanese Title: Extreme Battle!! The Three Great Super Saiyans – It's a little less generic, but I understand why they once again went with the villain's name for the title. Not sure why they added the exclamation point.

The movie itself is rather boring plotwise. It's more of Dr. Gero's cyborgs trying to kill Goku, and the fights are mostly uneventful. If you were to watch these in conjunction with the series, it makes sense to do so during the Android Saga, duh. There are a few things to enjoy, like Trunks making his movie debut! It's also pretty cool seeing the at this point three Super Saiyans fighting at the same time. It's also nice seeing a city. The movies often show the heroes in ways we don't normally see them. It's weird seeing them in such a normal setting doing normal things like going shopping. The cyborgs in this film aren't interesting, though the gag of one of them falling through the snow is worth a chuckle. Other than that, the fights aren't all that good. Again, the film suffers from being formulaic and a bland villain. Okay the ball shot makes me simultaneously laugh and wince because it's so painful and so unexpected.

The Dub:
Sean's ball shot scream is pretty funny
"Is it over?" "Not until the fish jumps… it's over." makes me chuckle.
I can't remember much about the dub script. I think this is one of the worst in terms of accuracy. What I do recall is the actor gave No. 13 a redneck accent and the script tried to give 13 a deeper POV. The accent doesn't bother me as it actually fits the design. However, attempt at giving 13 depth by making him spout of BS shallow political rhetoric about how terrible humans are is dumb. It's the sort of thing some teenager would say thinking it was something of substance.
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Re: Deep Thoughts: Trunks TV Special, Movies 5, 6, 7

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Feb 28, 2023 1:18 pm

I think Gohan having his tail in movie 5 was just so Coola's men could identify him as a Saiyan and give him a weakness for them to exploit.

I didn't mind Gohan having his tail back because it made no sense for it to never grow back after the second time when Goku needed divine intervention to lose his tail for good. I just assume Kami must have done whatever he did so Gohan wouldn't grow his tail back after this and have it exploited by the Androids



Movie 6 came out just as Cell was showing up for the first time. It seems that Toei was trying to set movie 6 after the Android saga and had Dende as Earth's current Kami to account for Kami having merged with Piccolo. Presumably Toriyama told them his plans or Toei made a lucky guess or Toei pulled it out of their ass and Toriyama liked it enough to make it happen in the manga.

Ironically, if Toei hadn't shown Dende as Kami this movie very easily could have taken place before the Androids showed up. Only Goku saw Vegeta turn Super Saiyan in this movie and it was everyone else who acted surprised by it in when he did it fighting #19. Instead the movie can't fit anywhere. Can't take place during the 10 day Cell Game wait ,despite what the Daizenshuu seems to think, because Gohan still has his early Android saga hairstyle and very obviously can't turn Super Saiyan and can't take place before 19 and 20 show up because of the whole Dende as Kami thing.


Movie 7 is probably the most boring and rote Dragon Ball movie. I don't blame the dub for trying to liven up the script but other than the fish line and the noteworthiness of 13 saying ass, at the time the dub was avoiding swearing like the plague, there wasn't much to write home about there either.

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Re: Deep Thoughts: Trunks TV Special, Movies 5, 6, 7

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Feb 28, 2023 2:56 pm

Cooler's Revenge could very well be the title for his second movie. I always get confused with those movie titles, they could've been better IMO. That title makes me think Cooler is taking revenge on something that he suffered himself, when he is stepping in for his family. Maybe something like "Freeza's Return?", throwing the audience off a bit, just like Goku thought for a moment Freeza was back.

-Titles out of the way, I think that's my favourite pre-SS bargain sale movie. Fights are good, none of them overstays their welcome, and Cooler's final form is scary as fuck. He's a giant, Goku looks like a toy next to him.

-Cooler's actual revenge, Cooler's Return (although he doesn't actually return anywhere, he stays where he ended up after surviving the sun... ?) his second movie premiered on March 7th 1992, between the chapters were Piccolo tells the gang who Cell is and Goku wakes up. Dende wasn't Kami yet, Earth was godless, like in the real life. And I hated it, even though I like how it looks, shiny metal Cooler, the two SS fighting him, but the rest of it is just meh. That boring slave stuff, Piccolo and Gohan fighting sentinels... somehow Goku and Vegeta surviving an army of Metal Coolers... and the ending was also lackluster.

- The battle of the 3 SS: There's a big lie on that title, because they seemed like they didn't even want to turn SS. It was like a last-resort thing.
Anyway, boring movie, boring villains, boring storyline, the only thing that stands out was Goku's SS form absorbing the genki dama which contradicts how that attack works. And the change of scenery for the showdown, Saiyans On Ice was nice.
I never understood the fandom's fascination over Super Android 13, his colors alone hurts my eyes so bad, don't get me started on his design. And he's the better looking of that bunch.
In any case, the dub titles stomp the original one that sound like they were aimed at 4-year olds, or at dumbest of the Pepsi Generation

The Trunks and Bardock special are nothing short of amazing. Toei outdoing Toriyama in the span of 3 years, those were the days.

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Re: Deep Thoughts: Trunks TV Special, Movies 5, 6, 7

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Feb 28, 2023 3:24 pm

The most likely explanation for Dende being Kami in Movie 6 is that Toriyama told Toei he was thinking about having Dende be the new Kami, and they decided to incorporate that into their movie, without stopping to consider that it might be a spoiler.

Anyway, the unfortunate thing about Movie 6, aside from the off-model animation, is that the Big Gete Star is actually a pretty fun sci-fi concept, but they hardly do anything with it. It could’ve helped give Cooler his own distinct identity, but alas, it’s mostly just an excuse to explain why Cooler has come back stronger.

Still, I’d say that Movie 7 is worse. It’s the most bland and barebones out of all the movies of the original run. The fact that FUNimation decided to treat their dub as a borderline gag dub is rather telling, and for what it’s worth, they actually gave #13 a personality and some memorable lines. The $30 haircut line has surprisingly managed to find life as an Internet meme in recent years.

Movie 5 is ok. It’s still really light on story, but tying Cooler into Goku’s backstory, and showing how his decision to let Goku live would eventually bite him in the ass, was a solid idea, and the movie at least isn’t ugly to look at. It does feel a bit lazy that the movie involves another camping trip, when Movie 3 had already done that, though.

One more thing, but FUNimation’s dub of Movie 5 seemed to have been botched for the remastered release. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwWi8kirNe8

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Re: Deep Thoughts: Trunks TV Special, Movies 5, 6, 7

Post by ABED » Tue Feb 28, 2023 3:43 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 3:24 pm It’s still really light on story,
Something I'm more than okay with. I've grown to not like overwritten plots. I like the simplicity of "you killed my brother, prepare to die."
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Re: Deep Thoughts: Trunks TV Special, Movies 5, 6, 7

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Feb 28, 2023 4:09 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 2:56 pm Cooler's Revenge could very well be the title for his second movie. I always get confused with those movie titles, they could've been better IMO. That title makes me think Cooler is taking revenge on something that he suffered himself, when he is stepping in for his family. Maybe something like "Freeza's Return?", throwing the audience off a bit, just like Goku thought for a moment Freeza was back.
I get how it could be confusing if you only know one of Cooler's movies is called Cooler's Revenge and you don't remember the other title and you're trying to remember if that's the first one or second one he appears in. Buf I think if you know the other one is called The Return of Cooler it's pretty easy to figure out which is which.
WittyUsername wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 3:24 pm

One more thing, but FUNimation’s dub of Movie 5 seemed to have been botched for the remastered release. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwWi8kirNe8
To be fair, the all licensed music from real bands soundtrack was a mistake to begin with. It's not like it fit the movie or didn't make the movie look like a vignette of baby's first AMV's

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Re: Deep Thoughts: Trunks TV Special, Movies 5, 6, 7

Post by coola » Tue Feb 28, 2023 4:30 pm

ABED wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 12:47 pm Was The Shredder an influence?
Super Shredder, to be specific :) TMNT II was also released in 1991.

My only "problem" with movie, is why Goku had problem with Coola Squadron? Unless that senzu bean also supposed to act as zenkai?
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Re: Deep Thoughts: Trunks TV Special, Movies 5, 6, 7

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Feb 28, 2023 5:07 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 4:09 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 2:56 pm Cooler's Revenge could very well be the title for his second movie. I always get confused with those movie titles, they could've been better IMO. That title makes me think Cooler is taking revenge on something that he suffered himself, when he is stepping in for his family. Maybe something like "Freeza's Return?", throwing the audience off a bit, just like Goku thought for a moment Freeza was back.
I get how it could be confusing if you only know one of Cooler's movies is called Cooler's Revenge and you don't remember the other title and you're trying to remember if that's the first one or second one he appears in. Buf I think if you know the other one is called The Return of Cooler it's pretty easy to figure out which is which.
WittyUsername wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 3:24 pm

One more thing, but FUNimation’s dub of Movie 5 seemed to have been botched for the remastered release. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwWi8kirNe8
To be fair, the all licensed music from real bands soundtrack was a mistake to begin with. It's not like it fit the movie or didn't make the movie look like a vignette of baby's first AMV's
It’s not even just the music. There are a few other minor but weird alterations, like them removing Piccolo’s “hmph” at the end, or Korin randomly having one of his lines redubbed with a different voice.

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Re: Deep Thoughts: Trunks TV Special, Movies 5, 6, 7

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Feb 28, 2023 5:55 pm

And even that stuff....doesn't seem like that big of a deal .

I guess it's interesting trivia but it's not exactly "botched" that Piccolo no longer makes a barely audible "hmph" at the start of the end credits

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Re: Deep Thoughts: Trunks TV Special, Movies 5, 6, 7

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Feb 28, 2023 6:14 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 5:55 pm And even that stuff....doesn't seem like that big of a deal .

I guess it's interesting trivia but it's not exactly "botched" that Piccolo no longer makes a barely audible "hmph" at the start of the end credits
It’s not exactly a big deal. It’s just weird.

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Re: Deep Thoughts: Trunks TV Special, Movies 5, 6, 7

Post by 8000 Saiyan » Tue Feb 28, 2023 6:42 pm

The Trunks TV special is easily some of the best animated stuff in Dragon Ball. Extremely dark and depressing, with all of the Z Fighters getting killed by the Androids. It's up there with the Bardock TV special in writing quality.

Movie 5 and 6 are worth it for Ryusei Nakao's fantastic performances as Cooler, as well as seeing Goku and Vegeta working together for the first time in a movie, and Piccolo getting time to shine by killing Cooler's men. Movie 7 though is rather boring, with some really bland villains in Android 13, 14 and 15.
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Re: Deep Thoughts: Trunks TV Special, Movies 5, 6, 7

Post by ABED » Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:37 pm

coola wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 4:30 pm
ABED wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 12:47 pm Was The Shredder an influence?
Super Shredder, to be specific :) TMNT II was also released in 1991.

My only "problem" with movie, is why Goku had problem with Coola Squadron? Unless that senzu bean also supposed to act as zenkai?
Yay, another wrestling connection :)
Kevin Nash played Super Shredder.
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Re: Deep Thoughts: Trunks TV Special, Movies 5, 6, 7

Post by MuscleRobo » Wed Mar 01, 2023 11:38 am

ABED wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:37 pm
coola wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 4:30 pm
ABED wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 12:47 pm Was The Shredder an influence?
Super Shredder, to be specific :) TMNT II was also released in 1991.

My only "problem" with movie, is why Goku had problem with Coola Squadron? Unless that senzu bean also supposed to act as zenkai?
Yay, another wrestling connection :)
Kevin Nash played Super Shredder.
Wait, is this how he got to be Kevin Mask in Kinnikuman Nisei as well?!

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Re: Deep Thoughts: Trunks TV Special, Movies 5, 6, 7

Post by 90sDBZ » Wed Mar 01, 2023 9:02 pm

Movie 5 has always been one of my favourites. I like how Cooler admits he hated his brother, and only cares about restoring the family honour. He declines the opportunity to destroy the planet early on, preferring to finish Goku with his own hands. Goku's design is still at its peak in this movie, with both his regular and SS forms looking the same as on Namek.

Piccolo gets some cool moments, but the highlight for me is Goku vs Cooler. Seeing Goku initially beat Cooler down is satisfying, and the underwater part is cool. I love the look of Cooler's Final Form, and the way he effortlessly dominates Goku is brutal. The part were he flies straight through the kamehameha is awesome.

Goku turning SS over a bird never bothered me, because it's pretty much in line with Funimation's version of Goku which I grew up watching. The part were Cooler hits him in the gut and he doesn't even react is one of the most badass moments in the franchise.

Movie 6 is one of the weaker movies for me. It's slow around the middle, and the premise is a bit weird. Goku and Vegeta teaming up is cool, but we never get to see them take on the army of Coolers, as it just cuts away. It also bugs me how Vegeta and Cooler don't seem to know each other. You'd think with Vegeta's history with Frieza they'd have something to say to each other.

I actually enjoy Movie 7 quite a bit. It's like the original premise for the Android saga, with an all out battle between the Z fighters and Androids. The movie knows it's basically just an excuse to have the characters fight for 45 minutes or so, and it delivers. I love how Vegeta and Piccolo both go out of their way to make a dramatic entrance, going so far as to hide underground. The part were Trunks kills 14 is really cool. Goku absorbing the Spirit Bomb was a nice idea, and actually got reused in Budokai 3.

I also like the fan theory that Movie 7 is actually the unseen timelines were Cell never showed up.

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Re: Deep Thoughts: Trunks TV Special, Movies 5, 6, 7

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Mar 01, 2023 9:51 pm

90sDBZ wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 9:02 pm

Goku turning SS over a bird never bothered me, because it's pretty much in line with Funimation's version of Goku which I grew up watching.
I will say the Funimation Goku is just Toei Goku (as opposed to Toriyama Goku) with cornier platitudes coming out of his mouth. As easy as it is to bash Funimation a lot of their stuff is just taking the Toei stuff a step further. Perhaps too far depending on taste.

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Re: Deep Thoughts: Trunks TV Special, Movies 5, 6, 7

Post by Super Sonic » Wed Mar 01, 2023 10:16 pm

Movie 7 basically turned Krillin and Gohan into comedy relief. Did like the fish jumping line.

Will also say while do prefer the Japanese version of movie 5, I did like their revealing of Cooler's relationship to Frieza with the line, "You've still got a lot to learn, brother."

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Re: Deep Thoughts: Trunks TV Special, Movies 5, 6, 7

Post by WittyUsername » Thu Mar 02, 2023 1:37 am

By the way, anyone heard the fan theory Dr. Gero modeling #13 after himself?

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Re: Deep Thoughts: Trunks TV Special, Movies 5, 6, 7

Post by jjgp1112 » Sun Mar 05, 2023 3:00 pm

The dub version of Movie 7 makes the movie far more entertaining than it would be on its own, and not even in a "So bad it's good" way.
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