Why Gohan could never defeat the Androids

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Yasai9001
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Why Gohan could never defeat the Androids

Post by Yasai9001 » Sat Mar 04, 2023 5:21 pm

I really want to know your thoughts and opinions on this topic as well; whether you agree or disagree is of no issue. In fact, if you do happen to disagree, I'd like to know why you think so, but hear me out if you have the time.


TL;DR is at the bottom of the post

Besides plot and Toriyama's writing, I'm bringing an in-universe explanation as to why Future Gohan could never have bested the Cyborgs in the first place.

For years in Future Trunks' timeline, after the death of his father and most of those he held close to him, it was all on Son Gohan to be the one to protect Earth and his loved ones as best as he could have. His dad died when he was just around the age of nine or ten (somewhere around there), and it's never shown that he was able to access the power of a Super Saiyan at that exact time.

From what I can recall, there was never an indication as to the timeframe where Gohan ascended and became a Super Saiyan for his first time ever. It could have been soon after those tragic events happened and all of his pent up anger got him to a point where he just transformed. He was shown to be 23 years of age by the time he passed away, so we're looking at - THE MOST - 14 years since Gohan was able to become a Super Saiyan.

Anywhere from 14 years to a just a decade or even just under a decade since he was able to accomplish a feat is in the cards, yet the issue lies in the fact that Son Gohan was never able to become strong enough to defeat #17 and #18 despite being able to transform for as long as he was.

There are a few arguments as to why such was the case.

  • One of them being lack of training

This isn't to say that Future Gohan never trained in the first place. It's made apparent in the bonus manga chapter that Future Gohan would often train Trunks when he could; it's only logical that Future Gohan would train in his spare time as well, but his disadvantage comes with him not having an equal training partner to be able to challenge him and push him to his limits.

It's been mentioned in Dragon Ball how having a training partner helps with one's progress in increasing their power. And it wasn't like having multiple sessions of intense training was in the cards either. Had he made too much of a ruckus through his training, he would have brought unnecessary attention unto him and Trunks from 17 and 18. In such a world, he needed to be cautious with how he went about his everyday life.

Also as for Son Gohan, the required intensity in order to push himself to break his own limits wasn't an option given to him in the first place. Trunks as a Super Saiyan wasn't remotely capable of touching his mentor, who used his base form against him (Vol.33 chapter). Gohan was effortlessly using one arm (not that he could use both if he wanted to), smiling, and telling Trunks that he was doing a good job.

Gohan in the other timeline had more of a hard time against Super Saiyan Goten at the age of seven years old when he was training for the Tenkaichi Budokai.


On the other side of things, Future Trunks was giving a serious effort and panting, showing how much was putting into trying to get a strike on Gohan.

And it could also be argued that Gohan was putting far more focus on Trunks' training than he was on his own training, seeing that Trunks was a generation after him and had the potential to be much stronger than he ever could have been.

Future Gohan's lack of intense training, alongside the unavailability of a proper training partner was an amalgamation of a hinderance to his own progression as a warrior. The same anger that brought him to amazing powers seemed to be absolutely nonexistent, and it could have been the single driving force as to why he became a Super Saiyan in the first place and nothing more.


But I still don't believe that to be the reason why Gohan wasn't strong enough to get rid of the cyborgs. Here is why I believe he failed to beat them with his own power

  • His inadequate knowledge and incapability to master the Super Saiyan form like his father

Gohan in the Future Timeline lost his father at an age where he needed him most. He was trained by Piccolo more than he had ever been trained by his father, both of whom are respected fighting geniuses, but Son Gohan didn't have enough time to grow into a more efficient fighter without the proper guidance.

For one, in the future timeline, they were never warned about there being Cyborgs, which also meant that they didn't dedicate three years of onerous training in hopes of not falling victim to #17 and #18.

Secondly, it was Vegeta who figured out before anyone else that there had to be levels beyond that of a Super Saiyan. Vegeta didn't have the time to figure this out in Future Trunks' timeline because he was killed before he had the chance to come to that conclusion. After Vegeta realized that there was something beyond that of what he initially believed, it was Son Goku who connected the dots and figured out that there was simply too much drawback that came with transforming into a Super Saiyan.

Had Future Gohan been aware of how to minimize the Super Saiyan transformations shortcomings in regards to reducing the drain of stamina (and the strain that came with) while simultaneously utilizing the Super Saiyan transformation. If Future Gohan was aware of this, he'd have the same approach as his father did and would have been able to invalidate the extensive scantiness that came with being a Super Saiyan unaware of their forms weakness.


TL;DR: Future Gohan couldn't defeat the cyborgs because he never mastered Super Saiyan. With guidance from Goku, and maybe even Vegeta, Son Gohan would have found a way, but that didn't happen to be the case.

Thoughts?

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Re: Why Gohan could never defeat the Androids

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Mar 04, 2023 10:47 pm

While his inexperience and lack of proper training definitely were impediments to reach greater heights, I think it was mostly his lack of confidence in himself, which we know is part of what constitutes ki.

Even his much stronger present version had a glass jaw once a couple of things started to go sour. Goku's suicide, losing one arm, Trunks' death and Vegeta being out cold... that's not even half of what his future version had to go through when he was much younger. Even with that great power, he still needed his dad to held his hand throughout the beam clash.
So, if his mentality was a couple of problems away from just giving up a fight he could win, I cannot fathom the impact of losing everybody and having to step up as the saviour at such a young age.

Why he never reached SS2 has many answers, and having training methods on par with Rocky's in Russia, of course is one of them, but I believe that a more confident fighter would've turned up much stronger than Future Gohan. Case in point: Trunks, even without Gohan as a training partner, he managed to get as strong as he was, if not stronger, before entering the ROSAT. They are both hybrids, but Trunks is much more hopeful, Gohan always struck me as just trying to pass the torch.

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Re: Why Gohan could never defeat the Androids

Post by Yasai9001 » Sun Mar 05, 2023 12:57 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 10:47 pm While his inexperience and lack of proper training definitely were impediments to reach greater heights, I think it was mostly his lack of confidence in himself, which we know is part of what constitutes ki.

Even his much stronger present version had a glass jaw once a couple of things started to go sour. Goku's suicide, losing one arm, Trunks' death and Vegeta being out cold... that's not even half of what his future version had to go through when he was much younger. Even with that great power, he still needed his dad to held his hand throughout the beam clash.
So, if his mentality was a couple of problems away from just giving up a fight he could win, I cannot fathom the impact of losing everybody and having to step up as the saviour at such a young age.

Why he never reached SS2 has many answers, and having training methods on par with Rocky's in Russia, of course is one of them, but I believe that a more confident fighter would've turned up much stronger than Future Gohan. Case in point: Trunks, even without Gohan as a training partner, he managed to get as strong as he was, if not stronger, before entering the ROSAT. They are both hybrids, but Trunks is much more hopeful, Gohan always struck me as just trying to pass the torch.
You make a genuinely great point. Gohan with the vibes of passing off the torch is something that I saw in him as well - putting a substantial amount of focus into Trunks.

As in regards to your statement about ki, I'm going to need to learn more about it. I know there's an interview or two where Toriyama talks about ki and how it works, but it's been some time. Great response.

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Re: Why Gohan could never defeat the Androids

Post by super michael » Sun Mar 05, 2023 1:58 pm

Future Gohan only had a master for 6 months, which was Piccolo. The other 6 months was just him learning to use his power and survive in the wild.

Present Gohan he had Piccolo (Fused with Nails) + Goku to learn and tran for 3 years. Then Gohan had Goku to train and learn from in the ROSAT for nearly 1 year. The ROSAT is known to be a effective place to train.

Remember this Piccolo fusing with Nails means he gains all of Nails skills and knowledges along with more power.

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Re: Why Gohan could never defeat the Androids

Post by Yasai9001 » Sun Mar 05, 2023 7:45 pm

super michael wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 1:58 pm Future Gohan only had a master for 6 months, which was Piccolo. The other 6 months was just him learning to use his power and survive in the wild.

Present Gohan he had Piccolo (Fused with Nails) + Goku to learn and tran for 3 years. Then Gohan had Goku to train and learn from in the ROSAT for nearly 1 year. The ROSAT is known to be a effective place to train.

Remember this Piccolo fusing with Nails means he gains all of Nails skills and knowledges along with more power.
I pretty much go over that in my post. Future Gohan didn't have sufficient training partners to help challenge and elevate him along the way in terms of power. That goes without saying that he pretty much never had a chance to master Super Saiyan 1 (obtain grade 4).

A giant bag of misfortune for the boy Future Gohan.

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Re: Why Gohan could never defeat the Androids

Post by Lionel » Mon Mar 06, 2023 1:06 am

Interesting and valid points made. You elaborate on the specific components of ki that have to do with mentality and comprehension of a plateau that exists beyond what is current believed to be achievable. Goku following Yardrat and perhaps however long he had to train afterwards before the virus claimed his life is what Gohan's mind would have associated as being achievable. Does that mean he lacked avenues for building himself up? I wouldn't say so. The ROSAT was there. Granted Gohan wouldn't have been aware of it unless Mr Popo sought him out which I can't understand why he wouldn't have done so when the situation for Earth was so thoroughly compromised with a Kami no longer watching over the planet. Another option might have been a gravity chamber which the precedent exists for them to be built with the one Dr Briefs built for Goku during his voyage to Namek.

It may have helped Gohan's situation and prospects had his father reached out to him through King Kai's telepathy. Goku could have told him of the existence of the ROSAT. Failing that there was always the Choshinsui which, while being dangerous, I don't see why Gohan couldn't withstand its rigours and have his potential unlocked that way. A combination of that process and Super Saiyan should have allowed him to easily surpass the cyborgs, in my opinion.

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Re: Why Gohan could never defeat the Androids

Post by BWri » Mon Mar 06, 2023 12:04 pm

There's also the case of nutrition. Perhaps Gohan wasn't drinking plenty of juice and thusly not doing the pushups and sit ups necessary to ascend to the next level.
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Re: Why Gohan could never defeat the Androids

Post by Thani » Mon Mar 06, 2023 6:34 pm

BWri wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 12:04 pm There's also the case of nutrition. Perhaps Gohan wasn't drinking plenty of juice and thusly not doing the pushups and sit ups necessary to ascend to the next level.
In the end, the androids were indeed dealing with an average (super) saiyan warrior.

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Re: Why Gohan could never defeat the Androids

Post by Mireya » Wed Mar 08, 2023 7:44 pm

I think it mostly lies on the fact he afforded training with Goku in a special environment, making him bring forth his full potential. It was more or less hinted that the Saiyans hit their peak in the androids saga and needed a new something to grow stronger. In the RoSaT Goku even stated, when Gohan noticed he was killed in the future, that he hadn't the opportunity of training with him and in a room like that. He needed the special conditions which he just couldn't find by himself on Earth, alone.

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Re: Why Gohan could never defeat the Androids

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Thu Mar 09, 2023 5:18 pm

I'm sure his mindset must also have affected. In the special he seems very depressed and jumps to fight 17 knowing he's going to die.
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Re: Why Gohan could never defeat the Androids

Post by miguelnuva1 » Sat Mar 11, 2023 12:51 am

In addition to starting much weaker and less experienced Gohan also didn't max at Grade 1. Remeber maxing out Grade I is what made Goku and Vegeta think there might be something stronger.

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Re: Why Gohan could never defeat the Androids

Post by TobyS » Sat Mar 11, 2023 9:43 am

He was undernourished, less trained and probably depressed and sad af, isn't there that shoki and yuki aspect to ki or whatever, and the dude had one arm.

It's a miracle he could force 17 to go full power in the end.

The sad thing is they could have sacrificed humanity like in the Buu saga and over trained but Gohan saw one of the last cities on earth being attacked again and felt compelled to intervene.

Gohan died because he was a good dude, that's the tragedy. He was reasonably sure he could win AND had Trunks as insurance, he got unlucky, we have hindsight he didn't have.
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Re: Why Gohan could never defeat the Androids

Post by FoolsGil » Sat Mar 11, 2023 7:08 pm

One major factor: Maybe he was unwilling to leave Earth.

Bulma knows how to make spaceships and gravity machines. They may not have been able to find New Namek (because Mirai K. Kai apparently went out of his way to be worthless in that timeline) but perhaps getting off planet and training at hundreds of gravity levels could put Gohan on the path to becoming strong enough, Hell, take Trunks too. But, he didn't. And I get it, he's literally the last one left not a coward (because apparently Mutaito was more of a hero than Mirai Roshi ever was) to do anything against genocide, leaving the earth temporarily would be a betrayal, and he might possibly take that ship and never look back, the lingering feeling to escape would always be there. But unwilling to put in the extra work, he shot himself in the foot.

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Re: Why Gohan could never defeat the Androids

Post by GokuHater » Mon Mar 13, 2023 12:05 pm

You all give good and logical reasons but there also is a very simple and "human" explanation.

We know what Roshi taught about martial arts. You have to train well, eat well, sleep well, play well.

In Future Trunks world we're basically near a postapocalytpic state. What if most of the good healthy nutritious food is missing, being destroyed and Gohan and Teunks just don't eat well enough for their bodies to develop.
Also there's a case of sleeping. Sleeping and regenerating after a training is crucial in real life but I don't see Trunks and Gohan like having a luxury of being able to sleep 9 hours a day and rest well enough. Quite the opposite, I can see them as exhausted and insomnia driven.
To that point their bodies just biologically can't go further.

I know this is DB not real life but for me it's food for thought anyway :)

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Re: Why Gohan could never defeat the Androids

Post by miguelnuva1 » Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:54 pm

Trunks and Gohan are both shown physically to be I. Top shape, experince and innovation are what they are lacking as shown by Trunks not being too different from Vegeta and Goku in the Android saga and Gohan being near Namek Goku.

Gohan just didn't know how to train and couldn't see past Super Saiyan.

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Re: Why Gohan could never defeat the Androids

Post by Mireya » Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:03 pm

Also worth noting that Kid Trunks ended up being >>> future Trunks. And the difference, perhaps beyond being made by a stronger Vegeta, lied on present Trunks' less intense upbringing and having a sparring partner of his level with Goten and a tutor in his father, who was introducing him to the gravity machine. Since it also seems like the kids are mastered SSJs, it all seems to play a role into their strengths and tie up into future Gohan being only a shell of his present self, strength wise.

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