Is The Manga Too Long?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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BootyCheeksJohnson
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Is The Manga Too Long?

Post by BootyCheeksJohnson » Wed Feb 22, 2023 5:05 pm

By that I mean are the current chapter's too long in page count? I hadn't even glanced in the manga's direction since the Tournament of Power ended, and that was just to see if Shueisha was planning to continue publication after the anime ended.
This week I've gone and marathoned my way through the Moro arc to see if it's any good. One thing I immediately noticed while reading was that the page count had jumped up fairly drastically since I last checked. At first it didn't seem like a big deal, but I had to start skimming my way the chapters to finish the story due to just how many pages were pure fighting without contributing to the story. To me the page count makes the chapters feel bloated. Like there isn't any breathing room, and every page feels overloaded with artwork despite having seemingly more room to pace out the story.

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Re: Is The Manga Too Long?

Post by Xeogran » Thu Feb 23, 2023 1:26 pm

I thought this thread would be about the overall chapter count of the DBS manga chapters rather than pages :lol:

Well I don't mind the page count since it's monthly so the wait is rewarded with a longer chapter. But I see your point, sometimes it does get pretty tiring reading through the battles even though we all know Goku and Vegeta can't get killed because its all before EoZ anyway.

I want this manga to progress into the unknown territory already, it's been TOO long.

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Re: Is The Manga Too Long?

Post by BootyCheeksJohnson » Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:23 pm

To be fair I think the chapter count of Super is too long as well. It's like 90 chapters now and pretty much no new territory has been covered. The last piece of Dragon Ball story to actually expand the lore was Battle of Gods, and that was a movie first, so that doesn't really count. I guess the Tournament of Power expanded things, but they wasted what could have been great potential storylines on a tournament that went on for way too long.

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Re: Is The Manga Too Long?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Thu Feb 23, 2023 8:44 pm

The original manga has 519 individual chapters. Let's see if Super can out do the original manga in length.
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Re: Is The Manga Too Long?

Post by Cipher » Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:50 pm

The page count hasn’t changed since the Future Trunks arc, which is where it first hit 40+. It’s on the long end for monthly chapters across the industry, but not all that much of an outlier.

What has changed a bit is the treatment of single chapters. Through the ToP, there are several that are almost structured like three smaller chapters, in line with the original series. From Moro onward, there’s a tendency to give them the same beats as an original-run weekly might have had, stretched over its longer page-count. There are exceptions on both sides of that, but that’s the general trend.

What works better or feels more natural will depend on the reader, from what I’ve seen. I’ve seen people say both that the TV-adjacent arcs felt too rushed and that the later ones are the first time it feels like a real, independent series, and that the earlier chapters were more smartly paced/in line with the original and the ones in the back half are too bloated. To each their own!

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Re: Is The Manga Too Long?

Post by fleahop » Fri Feb 24, 2023 2:06 am

It is odd, and something I have noticed many people (including myself) criticize.

Well, not directly criticize it, but we often criticize paneling and pacing. Though, it's somewhat of the same issue depending on how you look at it.

What I have also noticed is that it often seems Toyo does not have enough content to fill these pages, but the page count is strangely high regardless. Even hitting what seem to be arbitrary numbers. I wonder if he is being told: "Do X number of pages and make sure not to go past (insert some milestone)." The cynic in me thinks this is a way to sell more volumes in less time.
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Re: Is The Manga Too Long?

Post by Xeogran » Sat Feb 25, 2023 9:11 am

Hellspawn28 wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 8:44 pm The original manga has 519 individual chapters. Let's see if Super can out do the original manga in length.
Yeah but it was weekly. Of course we're not going to get 500+ chapters of a monthly manga :lol: (inb4 we actually will :twisted: )

Page-count wise, I think we may be at least halfway there already.

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Re: Is The Manga Too Long?

Post by TobyS » Sat Feb 25, 2023 12:59 pm

I think sometimes there's a tiny bit of bloat but I don't mind it, I'd rather have more than less when it's only monthly instead of weekly. I think Toriyama is so efficient it was always going to be an impossible ask of Toyo to be as good even if he was weekly.
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Re: Is The Manga Too Long?

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sun Feb 26, 2023 2:05 pm

I do think it's a bit tiring, specially if you try to binge read it. But like TobyS said, I'd rather have too much Dragon Ball than too little.
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Re: Is The Manga Too Long?

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Sun Feb 26, 2023 6:52 pm

Cipher wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:50 pm The page count hasn’t changed since the Future Trunks arc, which is where it first hit 40+. It’s on the long end for monthly chapters across the industry, but not all that much of an outlier.

What has changed a bit is the treatment of single chapters. Through the ToP, there are several that are almost structured like three smaller chapters, in line with the original series. From Moro onward, there’s a tendency to give them the same beats as an original-run weekly might have had, stretched over its longer page-count. There are exceptions on both sides of that, but that’s the general trend.

What works better or feels more natural will depend on the reader, from what I’ve seen. I’ve seen people say both that the TV-adjacent arcs felt too rushed and that the later ones are the first time it feels like a real, independent series, and that the earlier chapters were more smartly paced/in line with the original and the ones in the back half are too bloated. To each their own!
You summed it up nicely that there's a distinct shift from the Tournament of Power to the Moro arc, which effectively represented the end of Toyotaro being tethered to Toriyama's notes and the beginning of his own story (mostly his own, anyway) that he could naturally develop month to month.

When rereading the manga, I get almost the opposite effect to OP -- chapters in the earlier arcs feel meaty and substantial while newer ones usually feel like they breeze past, but only because it feels like comparatively little of substance happens in them. Before, we'd rarely get entire chapters dedicated to a single fight, let alone several in a row. There'd always be plenty more going on. With the later arcs, I keep wanting more pages, if anything, but I know that any additional space probably wouldn't be put to much better use.

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Re: Is The Manga Too Long?

Post by Mr Baggins » Sun Feb 26, 2023 8:02 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 6:52 pm You summed it up nicely that there's a distinct shift from the Tournament of Power to the Moro arc, which effectively represented the end of Toyotaro being tethered to Toriyama's notes and the beginning of his own story (mostly his own, anyway) that he could naturally develop month to month.
That might have less to do with Toyotaro writing more of his own story and perhaps more to do with the writers as a whole being unable to fully draft future story outlines in time, thus pacing gets bogged down as a result. We already have some lines of evidence for it, and following a lengthy hiatus, recent chapters have returned to Super's earlier condensed format with more things actually happening every 45 pages.

I guess we'll never truly know what kind of executive affairs begets stuff like this, but with Moro having whole chapters devoid of any substance and Granolah being that way for nearly half its entire arc span, hopefully it winds up being the exception and not the rule. I'll take a million hiatuses over a repeat of that.
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Re: Is The Manga Too Long?

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Sun Feb 26, 2023 8:31 pm

Mr Baggins wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 8:02 pm
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 6:52 pm You summed it up nicely that there's a distinct shift from the Tournament of Power to the Moro arc, which effectively represented the end of Toyotaro being tethered to Toriyama's notes and the beginning of his own story (mostly his own, anyway) that he could naturally develop month to month.
That might have less to do with Toyotaro writing more of his own story and perhaps more to do with the writers as a whole being unable to fully draft future story outlines in time, thus pacing gets bogged down as a result. We already have some lines of evidence for it, and following a lengthy hiatus, recent chapters have returned to Super's earlier condensed format with more things actually happening every 45 pages.

I guess we'll never truly know what kind of executive affairs beget stuff like this, but with Moro having whole chapters devoid of any substance and Granolah being that way for nearly half its entire arc span, hopefully it winds up being the exception and not the rule. I'll take a million hiatuses over a repeat of that.
I definitely think that's part of it, yeah. Suddenly working without full plans in place must've been jarring. By the sounds of things, the writing team have a pick 'n mix bag of prospective story arc ideas always waiting on the backburner, but have to develop these from scratch as they go along, more or less. Toyotaro mentioned the prospect of an arc focusing on other universes, but it doesn't sound like that concept evolved further than a suggestion. IIRC, Super Hero started life as a bare basic prompt from the Dragon Room that it should involve the return of the Red Ribbon Army, and Toriyama had to write the rest of the story around that core premise (it perhaps explains why the movie literally begins with the narration asking the audience, "sup guys, remember the Red Ribbon Army?") It may not be much of an exaggeration that the Dragon Room operates exactly like in that one South Park episode where Cartman discovers that Family Guy is written by trained manatees moving balls around a tank.

The hiatus seems to have led to some improvements in format, but I question if the length of the hiatus was necessary if they weren't planning on immediately moving ahead with a new, original story arc when they came back (I believe you also questioned this in the main thread)? Were those many months really necessary to plan a comedic three-chapter prequel mini-arc about Trunks trying to get a date before adapting a movie that's been out for half a year? Holy fuck, Super Hero has been out for half a year... Hopefully, the Dragon Room used that time to plan much further ahead, past the events of Super Hero while Toyotaro also found the time for a nice holiday, he earned it.

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Re: Is The Manga Too Long?

Post by Mr Baggins » Sun Feb 26, 2023 8:55 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 8:31 pm I believe you also questioned this in the main thread?
Yep, but FortuneSSJ also brought up a good point that maybe that process hasn't been going as smoothly as expected. Even if Super Hero is adapted 100% faithfully with no interesting additions, that too could be seen as a kind of "hiatus" while the writing team continues to flesh out ideas for the next arc; I wouldn't personally be interested in this retelling if that's the case, but that's not to say it'd be a bad adaptation (provided it's not dragged out). I'd probably just wait to read it collected.

I will say I'm a lot more optimistic for the manga's future than I was a few months ago. Here's hoping it's consistently back to the quality of the first few arcs.
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Re: Is The Manga Too Long?

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Mon Feb 27, 2023 8:04 pm

Mr Baggins wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 8:55 pm Yep, but FortuneSSJ also brought up a good point that maybe that process hasn't been going as smoothly as expected. Even if Super Hero is adapted 100% faithfully with no interesting additions, that too could be seen as a kind of "hiatus" while the writing team continues to flesh out ideas for the next arc; I wouldn't personally be interested in this retelling if that's the case, but that's not to say it'd be a bad adaptation (provided it's not dragged out). I'd probably just wait to read it collected.

I will say I'm a lot more optimistic for the manga's future than I was a few months ago. Here's hoping it's consistently back to the quality of the first few arcs.
Feel the same way here, the Super Hero arc feels like another stop gap, perhaps a compromise made to end the "planning" hiatus earlier? While I'm also cautiously optimistic, I get the feeling that the manga has been spinning its wheels for some time now.

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Re: Is The Manga Too Long?

Post by Rory » Thu Mar 09, 2023 6:48 pm

I think considering the amount of content that gets covered in each chapter, yeah it's way too long. Toriyama's chapters flew by because he utilised the medium so damn well, so it's more like the Super manga is more inefficient than it is too long, though maybe it's one in the same. A lot of the fights especially feel like the Anakin vs Obi Wan fight in Star Wars Revenge of the Sith.

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Re: Is The Manga Too Long?

Post by kemuri07 » Tue Mar 14, 2023 2:11 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 8:04 pm
Mr Baggins wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 8:55 pm Yep, but FortuneSSJ also brought up a good point that maybe that process hasn't been going as smoothly as expected. Even if Super Hero is adapted 100% faithfully with no interesting additions, that too could be seen as a kind of "hiatus" while the writing team continues to flesh out ideas for the next arc; I wouldn't personally be interested in this retelling if that's the case, but that's not to say it'd be a bad adaptation (provided it's not dragged out). I'd probably just wait to read it collected.

I will say I'm a lot more optimistic for the manga's future than I was a few months ago. Here's hoping it's consistently back to the quality of the first few arcs.
Feel the same way here, the Super Hero arc feels like another stop gap, perhaps a compromise made to end the "planning" hiatus earlier? While I'm also cautiously optimistic, I get the feeling that the manga has been spinning its wheels for some time now.
You can make that argument for pretty much the entirety of Super in general.

The biggest issue with the manga comes down to pacing. There is no reason why this series should be released in a monthly format. It doesn't. have the content for it. And that's a big reason why I think people turned on the last arc: It felt like we were just watching three dudes trade blows with each other for an eternity. And yet, when I went back and read chunks of the story at once, I felt it flowed a lot better.

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Re: Is The Manga Too Long?

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Tue Mar 14, 2023 8:16 pm

kemuri07 wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 2:11 pm
You can make that argument for pretty much the entirety of Super in general.

The biggest issue with the manga comes down to pacing. There is no reason why this series should be released in a monthly format. It doesn't. have the content for it. And that's a big reason why I think people turned on the last arc: It felt like we were just watching three dudes trade blows with each other for an eternity. And yet, when I went back and read chunks of the story at once, I felt it flowed a lot better.
You certainly can, but I'd say there was originally a clearer direction in place, whereas now it feels like they're coasting along until they stumble upon a Really Good Idea.

I've come to agree with your second point. While the monthly scheduling is unavoidable, I've always believed that it doesn't suit Dragon Ball as well as some other series. It worked best when chapters were meatier, back in the earlier days. You could walk away each month feeling satisfied while also craving the next chapter. But yeah, the later Super arcs don't have nearly enough going on to justify waiting a month for the next part... which, for a while, would always feel exactly like the last part.

In general, pacing is one of the main problems universally faced in the comic medium. Plenty of amateur comic creators get caught flatfooted by how much effort they actually have to put into realizing a meagre sliver of story. The Japanese comic industry turns that weakness to its advantage with the standard weekly schedule for kids' magazines: a sequential comic story told in small segments once a week keeps readers' interests far more effectively than larger chunks told once a month. It's the best way to meet consumer demand, but it's also incredibly taxing for the creators. I couldn't imagine doing it.

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