Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
QuakingStar
Regular
Posts: 508
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:18 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by QuakingStar » Fri Mar 24, 2023 6:23 pm

Yuji wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 5:08 pm I brought this up in another thread, but I want to challenge the notion that BoG SSG > Boo arc Vegetto.

We assumed this was the case but later showings of SSG have clarified that the form isn't as strong as it once appeared. SSG is definitely a step up from 3, I'd wager about a 10x increase as both the manga and anime repeatedly showcase it to be a different realm from 3, but certainly not the hundreds of thousands or even million time multiplier that was previously thought.

Firstly, Goku compares Vegetto to Beerus. No comparison has been made to SSG. We know Zamasu arc Blue Vegetto would probably lose to Beerus, so let alone Super Vegetto or even the hypothetical SS3 Vegetto from the Boo arc. Folks argue that because Goku felt "confident" fighting Beerus in BoG, this means he's stronger at least than Super Vegetto. SSG was his only option, so it's not like it's a definitive statement on the two characters. It's a vague enough statement that there's enough wiggle room for multiple interpretations.

The nail in the coffin for me is the Broly movie. We saw that Super Saiyan Gogeta was stronger than its Blue counterparts. One could argue even base Gogeta was, but let's stick with Super Saiyan. Common sense dictates that fusions get stronger the stronger the fusees are, of course, but this is the best point of comparison we have. If the scaling translates, then a hypothetical Super Vegetto from BoG would be stronger not only than SSG but a hypothetical BoG Blue Goku too.

Whether SSG Goku beats Super Vegetto or not depends on how strong you think the difference between Boo arc and BoG Goku is. He either got only slightly stronger, or dozens of times stronger depending on your perspective. I'd like to think he got a few times stronger as he probably surpassed Gohan and Gotenks by this point, so the difference between SSG and Boo arc Super Vegetto would be pretty small for me. I would be comfortable saying they're about equal just so the line can still make sense even with the other interpretations. Super Vegetto is a Z character but he's the apex Z character. I have no issue placing him among the initial Super transformations and antagonists as a formidable opponent, instead of the fodder we initially thought he was when BoG first dropped.

Finally, and this argument isn't entirely serious and more just so as a curious note, Heroes seems to push the idea that SS4 is equal to Blue. As we know from the Perfect Files, Super Vegetto was also mentioned there as superior to SS4 Goku. If you want to take Heroes at face value, then this would put Super Vegetto in the realm of the God forms as expected.
Herms translated all of that, and he is more of the mind it is speaking of a hypothetical Vegito and questioning if that hypothetical Vegito would be stronger than the SS4 form. But yeah SS4 and Blue are directly comparable in Heroes.

User avatar
GreatSaiyaman123
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1717
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:59 am
Location: Somewhere beyond the sea

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Fri Mar 24, 2023 6:44 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 12:48 pm We really need some sort of DBS manga depiction of its events of RoF, because right now that one area is throwing everything off and making it difficult to tell exactly where everyone once stood.

Say what you want about the movie and anime arc in terms of their quality, but both made fairly clear how everyone matched up, something that was kept mostly consistent in terms of general rankings and the progression afterwards in the anime at least.
I second what Yuji said. It's a bit confusing for some, but I think it's easier to just handwave what happened than.
Yuji wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 11:50 am Who's the weakest character that could erase Infinite Zamasu? Both the anime and manga versions.
I don't think any god can since Hakai doesn't work on immortals. The angels are all stronger than the gods, but they can't do anything either. Because they're only guides, they don't have any technique for destruction, so not even the Grand Priest, as strong as he might be, can erase Zamasu. Zeno is the only one with the absolute power of destruction.

Although Beerus does suggest he has a sealing technique (probably what he used on Old Kai eons ago), so he (and maybe other gods/angels) could seal Zamasu away.
Yuji wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 5:08 pm I brought this up in another thread, but I want to challenge the notion that BoG SSG > Boo arc Vegetto.

We assumed this was the case but later showings of SSG have clarified that the form isn't as strong as it once appeared. SSG is definitely a step up from 3, I'd wager about a 10x increase as both the manga and anime repeatedly showcase it to be a different realm from 3, but certainly not the hundreds of thousands or even million time multiplier that was previously thought.

Firstly, Goku compares Vegetto to Beerus. No comparison has been made to SSG. We know Zamasu arc Blue Vegetto would probably lose to Beerus, so let alone Super Vegetto or even the hypothetical SS3 Vegetto from the Boo arc. Folks argue that because Goku felt "confident" fighting Beerus in BoG, this means he's stronger at least than Super Vegetto. SSG was his only option, so it's not like it's a definitive statement on the two characters. It's a vague enough statement that there's enough wiggle room for multiple interpretations.

The nail in the coffin for me is the Broly movie. We saw that Super Saiyan Gogeta was stronger than its Blue counterparts. One could argue even base Gogeta was, but let's stick with Super Saiyan. Common sense dictates that fusions get stronger the stronger the fusees are, of course, but this is the best point of comparison we have. If the scaling translates, then a hypothetical Super Vegetto from BoG would be stronger not only than SSG but a hypothetical BoG Blue Goku too.

Whether SSG Goku beats Super Vegetto or not depends on how strong you think the difference between Boo arc and BoG Goku is. He either got only slightly stronger, or dozens of times stronger depending on your perspective. I'd like to think he got a few times stronger as he probably surpassed Gohan and Gotenks by this point, so the difference between SSG and Boo arc Super Vegetto would be pretty small for me. I would be comfortable saying they're about equal just so the line can still make sense even with the other interpretations. Super Vegetto is a Z character but he's the apex Z character. I have no issue placing him among the initial Super transformations and antagonists as a formidable opponent, instead of the fodder we initially thought he was when BoG first dropped.

Finally, and this argument isn't entirely serious and more just so as a curious note, Heroes seems to push the idea that SS4 is equal to Blue. As we know from the Perfect Files, Super Vegetto was also mentioned there as superior to SS4 Goku. If you want to take Heroes at face value, then this would put Super Vegetto in the realm of the God forms as expected.
Goku constantly says SSJG was much better than he predicted and believed Beerus had been fighting close to (in the movie) or at full power (in the anime). It's definitely the new best thing. I don't have anything against nerfing SSJG in the manga, but it's definitely weird to say one version is weaker when they're the same thing.

I don't think the Broly movie can be used for comparison, because Goku and Vegeta in the movie are much stronger than they were in Battle of Gods. This is like saying any fusion should be stronger than Gohan-Boo just because Boo Saga Vegetto was. And as weak as SSJG may be, but putting Base Gogeta at 50x SSJG Goku in Battle of Gods is crazy.

Also, the GT thing says SSJ4 is comparable to fusion, not that fusion is better.
Battle Powers List (Manga)

Guardian of the city, I am the one and only...Great Saiyaman!

User avatar
Yuji
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1107
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:20 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Fri Mar 24, 2023 6:59 pm

It's the new best thing for Goku. Certainly he never experienced any power like that himself before that point and it's a realm above his Super Saiyan 3. But I don't think we can extrapolate that toward Vegetto just because he mentioned fusion in passing earlier in the movie in regards to Beerus' strength, not SSG's.

Yes, I agree that fusion is exponential, but again this should be the best point of comparison we have between the fusees and the fusion. If Super Saiyan Gogeta > Super Saiyan Blue Goku in the Broly movie, how far back can we go until this stops being the case? Would SS Gogeta be stronger than Blue Goku in the ToP? Zamasu arc? U6? F? BoG? I'm more comfortable assuming a standard level throughout to avoid complications. Base Gogeta just deflected a few Ki blasts and almost immediately transformed so I'm not very concerned with his scaling.

There's such a humongous difference between Boohan and Super Vegetto that even if you want to say Super Vegetto is stronger than a hypothetical God or even Blue Goku in the Boo arc, you could very easily slot those forms in the middle of the two characters and Boohan would still come out as fodder.

The idea that God was this, pardon, godly realm of power that would be unattainable otherwise was certainly the original intention. But by the time Vegeta acquired God via simple training, or characters without God ki started matching the God forms, I think it's clear it's no longer treated as this otherwordly realm. It's a massive step up from SS3, as 3 was from 2 and so on. Not a million time increase as the SSG > SS3 Vegetto theory would imply.

Curiously the Moro arc shows Goku detransforming from God to 3 when his Ki is being absorbed, showcasing the forms are in a linear progression. They're not separately categorised as we were initially lead to believe. With so many retcons surrounding the form, the power being one shouldn't be surprising.

I'm sure the Perfect Files references Vegetto being "perhaps" stronger than SS4, but this isn't a point I care much to discuss. Just a fun observation commenting on how the marketing side compares SS4 to the God forms.

User avatar
Skar
I Live Here
Posts: 2206
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:04 pm
Location: US

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Fri Mar 24, 2023 11:48 pm

Yuji wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 5:08 pmFinally, and this argument isn't entirely serious and more just so as a curious note, Heroes seems to push the idea that SS4 is equal to Blue. As we know from the Perfect Files, Super Vegetto was also mentioned there as superior to SS4 Goku. If you want to take Heroes at face value, then this would put Super Vegetto in the realm of the God forms as expected.
I've had a similar thought before. Like others pointed out, Goku thought fusion wouldn't be enough against Beerus. I liked the old fan theory that fusions have less of a boost in each form than regular Saiyans or something like that. I think it was Kaboom who came up with it. It explains how there didn't seem to be a huge difference between SSJ and 3 Gotenks and each of Gogeta's forms in Broly. They're still astronomically strong but it would keep power inflation a little less insane. So SSJG could be stronger than Buu saga SSJ Vegetto but the gap between base and SSJ Vegetto wasn't 50x.

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 3744
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat Mar 25, 2023 2:59 am

Yuji wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 6:02 pm
Miracles wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 5:40 pm From the anime supervisor for Battle of Gods...

Tadayaoshi Yamamuro: "I handled the roughs for Super Saiyan God. It was “a being that surpasses everything”

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... -yamamuro/
What does that mean? Clearly didn't surpass Beerus or Whis in its own film.

And again, the might of SSG is long gone. It's no longer treated as this outstanding transformation as before. It's another number.
Yes, according to Beerus's prophetic dream confirmed by the Oracle Fish, he was suppose to have a rival, Super Saiyan god.This is what Beerus sought as it was the only thing in his dream to give him a challenge. It was not another Super Saiyan, which Vegetto would be. So it doesn't fit script wise if Super Saiyan god was weaker than Vegetto.

Add to the fact that Goku himself eve ndoubts in the film that fusion would beat Beerus. So he considered another avenue in the unknown dimension of Super Saiyan god. Fusion is always used as a last resort yet that was tossed out for something greater. As the story's theme pushes.

User avatar
dbgtFO
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7888
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:07 pm
Contact:

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dbgtFO » Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:05 am

Skar wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 11:48 pm I liked the old fan theory that fusions have less of a boost in each form than regular Saiyans or something like that. I think it was Kaboom who came up with it.
No. That theory has been around for a long time, before he changed his tune. 10 years at least!

User avatar
TobyS
I Live Here
Posts: 2450
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:11 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TobyS » Sat Mar 25, 2023 7:04 am

Skar wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 11:48 pm
Yuji wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 5:08 pmFinally, and this argument isn't entirely serious and more just so as a curious note, Heroes seems to push the idea that SS4 is equal to Blue. As we know from the Perfect Files, Super Vegetto was also mentioned there as superior to SS4 Goku. If you want to take Heroes at face value, then this would put Super Vegetto in the realm of the God forms as expected.
I've had a similar thought before. Like others pointed out, Goku thought fusion wouldn't be enough against Beerus. I liked the old fan theory that fusions have less of a boost in each form than regular Saiyans or something like that. I think it was Kaboom who came up with it. It explains how there didn't seem to be a huge difference between SSJ and 3 Gotenks and each of Gogeta's forms in Broly. They're still astronomically strong but it would keep power inflation a little less insane. So SSJG could be stronger than Buu saga SSJ Vegetto but the gap between base and SSJ Vegetto wasn't 50x.
I square the BOG Vegetto being no use but later Vegetto and Gogeta being of use by going with the fan theory that the Fusion is as strong as the Fusees best form/s at the time.

Hence why Base Gogeta is blue and Gotenks is notably strong but doesn't have the juice to defeat Buu in base but could as SS1.

I don't think we need to lower the multipliers.

Regarding the GT line about Vegetto, and thus SS4/God/Blue, keep in mind forms are multipliers, the Xeno cast are stronger in base not just because of the years more time, but right at the start of the manga, Goku and Trunks go into a time rift and train to their limits. So their bases are higher imo.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

ankokudaishogun
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1094
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:07 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sat Mar 25, 2023 8:40 am

God was a QUALITY change.

Vegetto basically was at the ceiling of the Mortal power, but God was at the base of the Godly power, while being not that much different from Vegetto at the very worst.

User avatar
GreatSaiyaman123
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1717
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:59 am
Location: Somewhere beyond the sea

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:37 pm

Yuji wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 6:59 pm It's the new best thing for Goku. Certainly he never experienced any power like that himself before that point and it's a realm above his Super Saiyan 3. But I don't think we can extrapolate that toward Vegetto just because he mentioned fusion in passing earlier in the movie in regards to Beerus' strength, not SSG's.

Yes, I agree that fusion is exponential, but again this should be the best point of comparison we have between the fusees and the fusion. If Super Saiyan Gogeta > Super Saiyan Blue Goku in the Broly movie, how far back can we go until this stops being the case? Would SS Gogeta be stronger than Blue Goku in the ToP? Zamasu arc? U6? F? BoG? I'm more comfortable assuming a standard level throughout to avoid complications. Base Gogeta just deflected a few Ki blasts and almost immediately transformed so I'm not very concerned with his scaling.

There's such a humongous difference between Boohan and Super Vegetto that even if you want to say Super Vegetto is stronger than a hypothetical God or even Blue Goku in the Boo arc, you could very easily slot those forms in the middle of the two characters and Boohan would still come out as fodder.

The idea that God was this, pardon, godly realm of power that would be unattainable otherwise was certainly the original intention. But by the time Vegeta acquired God via simple training, or characters without God ki started matching the God forms, I think it's clear it's no longer treated as this otherwordly realm. It's a massive step up from SS3, as 3 was from 2 and so on. Not a million time increase as the SSG > SS3 Vegetto theory would imply.

Curiously the Moro arc shows Goku detransforming from God to 3 when his Ki is being absorbed, showcasing the forms are in a linear progression. They're not separately categorised as we were initially lead to believe. With so many retcons surrounding the form, the power being one shouldn't be surprising.

I'm sure the Perfect Files references Vegetto being "perhaps" stronger than SS4, but this isn't a point I care much to discuss. Just a fun observation commenting on how the marketing side compares SS4 to the God forms.
Goku also did experience fusion and was expecting something even better from what he had been told. Beerus was looking forward to fighting a SSJG, while going by the anime Vegetto didn’t even stand a chance. SSJG most certainly did stand a chance. For all intents and purposes, Beerus was still within God’s league in BoGs, while fusion wasn’t.

If SSJ Gogeta is on pair with SSJ Broly, whose base (actually Ikari, but still base) power was almost on pair with SSJB Goku, then Base Gogeta is also almost on pair with SSJB. As strong as Vegetto is, he still needed SSJ to get an upperhand on Gohan-Boo. Is Gohan-Boo SSJB level? Of course not. I could put Super Vegetto in God’s ballpark even if a fair bit behind, but Blue is a whole other game.

Between BoGs and F was when Goku did his biggest power jump, so that’s presumably when base/SSJ/2/3 fusion regained relevance. Not that I think it matters, because from the moment Goku and Vegeta learned SSJG and SSJB, so did Gogeta and Vegetto.

Also worth pointing out Goku is constantly surprised by Beerus’ strength (Most notably in the Zeno Exhibition Match), so he could only know so much about it from their brief fight in BoGs.
Battle Powers List (Manga)

Guardian of the city, I am the one and only...Great Saiyaman!

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 3744
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Mar 27, 2023 3:04 am

The BoG plot also has something new, showing that SSJG is a brand new dimension with one's Ki not being sensed compared to previous power ups Ki.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 4631
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Mar 27, 2023 8:59 am

Yuji wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 6:59 pm Yes, I agree that fusion is exponential, but again this should be the best point of comparison we have between the fusees and the fusion. If Super Saiyan Gogeta > Super Saiyan Blue Goku in the Broly movie, how far back can we go until this stops being the case? Would SS Gogeta be stronger than Blue Goku in the ToP? Zamasu arc? U6? F? BoG? I'm more comfortable assuming a standard level throughout to avoid complications. Base Gogeta just deflected a few Ki blasts and almost immediately transformed so I'm not very concerned with his scaling.
Probably the breakpoint happened between Battle of Gods and Ressurrection F, given that, in the movie continuity, Goku and Vegeta far surpassed their Boo arc selves without even transforming into Super Saiyan.

User avatar
Koitsukai
I Live Here
Posts: 4276
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Mar 28, 2023 1:56 pm

I can see the fandom exaggerating about just how much stronger than Vegito SSG could've been, beyond SS3 sounds like too much, specially because that form is unreliable and never seen for Vegito. But the movie, while not being explicit about it, makes it clear that SSG is beyond that, Goku was even using only 80%, he was holding back against Beerus! a foe that he deemed was beyond fusion. This is as straightforward as it could be.

DBS fusions stomp because the fusee's have more power at their disposal than in Z. We know a base fusion is at least as strong as Goku's strongest form in his base form, so if in Z that meant SS3, in DBS that means SSB. So a fusee's SSG won't stand a chance against his own current fusion. Z SS3 Goku probably destroys a Namek arc Super Vegito, but as soon as Vegito is born out of a Goku with SS3 in his back pocket, he will trash SS3 Goku.

The Broly movie implies he gets a 10x boost that takes him to SSG tier, when he was around SS3-tier(assuming Vegeta's power up from BoG was permanent, the manga pretty much confirms it, and Tori envisioned the SS form being able to muster all the forms in the basic SS form). He will end up being subdued by SSG before he goes completely nuts and reaches SSB level to break free from SSG's frozen technique. I'd say SSG is a bit more than 10x SS3.

The issue comes from us buying and giving arbitrary multipliers to SS forms and ending up with numbers that don't always add up, numbers that DO NOT COME from the original source, but from ancillary material written by NOT-TORIYAMA, not even by Toei.
Even if you take the anime into account, base Vegito trashes Buuhan, and with SS, with a 50x boost, he... he still needs to dodge, block, use shunkanido to escape, use huge ki blasts, he struggles with Buu's rage shield...

I'm more than happy believing Vegito, by virtue of being an OP fusion, didn't become 50x stronger when turning Super, but maybe 10x stronger at best. That would line up perfectly with SSG being 10-ishx SS3.
Same for Gogeta vs Broly. As a SS didn't seem to be doing 50x better than in base.

User avatar
Yuji
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1107
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:20 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Tue Mar 28, 2023 2:09 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 1:56 pm I can see the fandom exaggerating about just how much stronger than Vegito SSG could've been, beyond SS3 sounds like too much, specially because that form is unreliable and never seen for Vegito. But the movie, while not being explicit about it, makes it clear that SSG is beyond that, Goku was even using only 80%, he was holding back against Beerus! a foe that he deemed was beyond fusion. This is as straightforward as it could be.
And yet the movie also claims Beerus was at 60%. If one's power has been retconned, why not the other?

I'm not arguing that the original intention seems to be SSG > Vegetto. I'm arguing that nothing else besides a movie that has been thoroughly retconned and with scaling all over the place proves it, and in fact future scaling in the series make a strong argument against it.

User avatar
Koitsukai
I Live Here
Posts: 4276
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:28 pm

Yuji wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 2:09 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 1:56 pm I can see the fandom exaggerating about just how much stronger than Vegito SSG could've been, beyond SS3 sounds like too much, specially because that form is unreliable and never seen for Vegito. But the movie, while not being explicit about it, makes it clear that SSG is beyond that, Goku was even using only 80%, he was holding back against Beerus! a foe that he deemed was beyond fusion. This is as straightforward as it could be.
And yet the movie also claims Beerus was at 60%. If one's power has been retconned, why not the other?

I'm not arguing that the original intention seems to be SSG > Vegetto. I'm arguing that nothing else besides a movie that has been thoroughly retconned and with scaling all over the place proves it, and in fact future scaling in the series make a strong argument against it.
Future scaling based on arbitrary numbers, on giant multipliers the fandom loves so much just because they are big numbers, sure, but came out of somebody else's ass, not Toriyama's or Toei's. And frankly, many times they make no sense and one ends up assuming forms or characters were retconned to reconcile everything.

We know Beerus' power has been on the move since RoF, that's clear, we can SEE this, there's no debate, or a misinterpretation of his power.
SSG holding back doesn't change much, you can even discard that entirely, but to assume it was retconned, you need to scale it using numbers that are as unofficial(as in not from the horse's mouth) as yours or mine.
Aside of some japanese magazine written by who knows who, from the 90s, there's no evidence SSG was retconned.

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 3744
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:39 pm

Can we really say that the Battle of gods movie has been "retconned?" Yes Beerus used "nearly 70%" of his power against SSJG Goku. However it was simply overkill as Goku stood absolutely no chance. Who is to say Goku/Vegeta ever caught up to Beerus near 70% power?

Also, look at the verbiage in Resurrection of F movie, Beerus "hasn't quite perfected it [Ultra Instinct] yet." This possibly means Beerus is in pursuit of UI too. Still training.

User avatar
GreatSaiyaman123
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1717
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:59 am
Location: Somewhere beyond the sea

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Mar 28, 2023 5:18 pm

Well AT himself came up with the 6/10/15 scale, and it fit pretty well with the 70% line.

Also I’m not getting the point with SSJ multipliers? At least SSJ1 = 50x came from Toriyama himself.
Battle Powers List (Manga)

Guardian of the city, I am the one and only...Great Saiyaman!

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 4631
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Mar 28, 2023 9:39 pm

Toriyama also wrote that Goku and Vegeta as Super Saiyan Blue would be able to match Beerus if they fought together (in DBZ RoF), but (in DBS Broly) they were no match for SS Broly at such conditions, let alone Broly’s full-powered state, the one that was later implied to be stronger than Beerus. So, it seems Toriyama didn't think this would turn into a breakdown of power hierarchy.

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 3744
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Tue Mar 28, 2023 10:46 pm

Toriyama kept himself safe with the Goku and Vegeta's team up against Beerus too. Saying it only "seems" like they could only go head up with Beerus. Toriyama also makes sure to note that it's only what Whis "thinks." Not a fact.

Image
Image
Image

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 4631
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Mar 29, 2023 5:55 am

For me, it’s pretty clear the authorial intent there. That if they team up they would be able to go toe-to-toe against Beerus. Beerus’ reaction says it all. This is just a case of Toriyama presenting a different power hierarchy of what ended up being conveyed in DBZ Battle of Gods and in Dragon Ball Super.

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2658
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Mar 29, 2023 8:09 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 5:55 am For me, it’s pretty clear the authorial intent there. That if they team up they would be able to go toe-to-toe against Beerus. Beerus’ reaction says it all. This is just a case of Toriyama presenting a different power hierarchy of what ended up being conveyed in DBZ Battle of Gods and in Dragon Ball Super.
As well, Whis calls back to this moment specifically when he sees Gogeta.

And we all saw how Gogeta was beating the snot outta Broly whose raw power was potentially above even that of Beerus (please note I specifically emphasized "raw power" and not necessarily overall fighting prowess).

I think it's definitely a case where Whis is stating the generalities of it, as he doesn't draw much distinction about how the 2 of them would work together.

Post Reply