Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 4632
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:19 am

I don’t think the intent is covering anything beyond what they were doing in the sparring sessions against Whis. I think if the intent was saying a Super Saiyan Blue Fusion was evenly matched with Beerus, the verbatim would be direct. Fusion wasn’t even mentioned in that dialogue.

User avatar
Koitsukai
I Live Here
Posts: 4276
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Mar 29, 2023 10:24 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 5:18 pm
Also I’m not getting the point with SSJ multipliers? At least SSJ1 = 50x came from Toriyama himself.
Really? do you have a link to it? this is the first time I've read this. The interview on this site says he thought it was a 10x boost when drawing Goku on Namek, but the 50x I've never heard was his idea, and an exaggerated one in his opinion.

User avatar
Mr Baggins
Regular
Posts: 602
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:23 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:24 pm

Whoever invented the 50x figure for Super Saiyan was clearly just trying to keep it consistent with Kaioken's multipliers, since it's supposed to be stronger. Toriyama went on record to say he never actually imagined it being that powerful.

Super Saiyan God though? You can tell that's meant to be an absolutely massive boost, regardless of medium.
Review scores for the DBS manga (and movies):

Cipher
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6333
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:54 pm
Location: Nagano
Contact:

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Wed Mar 29, 2023 1:34 pm

Mr Baggins wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:24 pm Whoever invented the 50x figure for Super Saiyan was clearly just trying to keep it consistent with Kaioken's multipliers, since it's supposed to be stronger. Toriyama went on record to say he never actually imagined it being that powerful.

Super Saiyan God though? You can tell that's meant to be an absolutely massive boost, regardless of medium.
With plenty of time to reinterpret it or redirect the series, Toyotaro also doubles down on it in the Universal Survival arc, where Goku tells Toppo his next form is an absolutely massive jump from 3. Three to God has been repeatedly referenced as/implied to be the largest jump between forms.

User avatar
GreatSaiyaman123
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1717
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:59 am
Location: Somewhere beyond the sea

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:52 pm

Akira Toriyama wrote:Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point.
Straight from the horse’s mouth. He says it feels a bit too big (which it is, but he wrote himself into a corner) and that he’d rather it be something else, but it is what it is. Not like the 2x and 4x ones.


Anyway, all of these transformations are supposed to be massive. It’s the standard procedure to have people make a big deal of a new form and downplay the old ones. What did Granolah think of SSJG? Absolutely nothing. It doesn’t really go anywhere.
Battle Powers List (Manga)

Guardian of the city, I am the one and only...Great Saiyaman!

User avatar
Koitsukai
I Live Here
Posts: 4276
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Mar 29, 2023 3:17 pm

He confirms he had a 10x boost in mind when Goku turned SS on Namek. 50x was an exaggeration according to the creator.

User avatar
Mr Baggins
Regular
Posts: 602
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:23 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Wed Mar 29, 2023 3:53 pm

The Granolah arc is the exception, not the rule, and it's only the exception because Granolah was the universe's strongest. Of course from his standing, and from the perspective of anyone significantly stronger than God, it's just another hair color.

The BoG prologue is self-explanatory, so I'll skip that.

Champa's tournament? Goku becomes so much stronger than Hit that his timeskip is rendered completely ineffective until he uses his "full power", which he can't maintain for longer than a minute.

The Future Trunks arc? Goku quickly turns SSG before Trunks can notice, then casually oneshots him. Whis says it was childish of him to use it at all.

Universe Survival? Goku outright says it's in a different league from the previous three Super Saiyan forms (as Cipher just mentioned), then the Gods of Destruction proceed to sing its praises and claim it's on their general level. Nobody there is impressed by SS3's strength, but many are impressed by SSG's.

Broly's movie? Vegeta sends base Broly through several mountains with a light punch when he was previously struggling in Super Saiyan. He was about to kill him with a regular ki blast.

The Moro arc? Goku is forced to call off his sparring match with Merus because the training room starts to fall apart the moment he goes SSG. He doesn't even get to fight in the form.

___________

Blue obviously gets the most screentime because it's the latest and greatest SS stage, but God continued to repeatedly and consistently make the boosts of its predecessors look like a joke long after its introduction. Even on completely relative terms, the jump it provides isn't comparable to 1-3. That's not really up for debate.
Review scores for the DBS manga (and movies):

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 3745
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Mar 29, 2023 6:10 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 5:55 am For me, it’s pretty clear the authorial intent there. That if they team up they would be able to go toe-to-toe against Beerus. Beerus’ reaction says it all. This is just a case of Toriyama presenting a different power hierarchy of what ended up being conveyed in DBZ Battle of Gods and in Dragon Ball Super.
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 8:09 am
Hugo Boss wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 5:55 am For me, it’s pretty clear the authorial intent there. That if they team up they would be able to go toe-to-toe against Beerus. Beerus’ reaction says it all. This is just a case of Toriyama presenting a different power hierarchy of what ended up being conveyed in DBZ Battle of Gods and in Dragon Ball Super.
As well, Whis calls back to this moment specifically when he sees Gogeta.

And we all saw how Gogeta was beating the snot outta Broly whose raw power was potentially above even that of Beerus (please note I specifically emphasized "raw power" and not necessarily overall fighting prowess).

I think it's definitely a case where Whis is stating the generalities of it, as he doesn't draw much distinction about how the 2 of them would work together.
The authorial intent was showing how wrong Whis was about Goku and Vegeta being able to team up against Beerus. Since in the very next movie [DBS: Broly] they couldn't even go toe-to-toe despite teaming up against Broly who was supposedly above Beerus.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 4632
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Mar 29, 2023 6:25 pm

Miracles wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 6:10 pm The authorial intent was showing how wrong Whis was about Goku and Vegeta being able to team up against Beerus. Since in the very next movie [DBS: Broly] they couldn't even go toe-to-toe despite teaming up against Broly who was supposedly above Beerus.
I’m not following this line of thought, since there is nothing in the movie implying Whis is wrong, as well as there is nothing implying SSG Goku having 60% of Beerus’ strength is a lie. Seems very clear to me that Toriyama just changed his mind and he doesn’t follow what he wrote on those movies anymore.

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2658
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Mar 29, 2023 7:17 pm

Not to mention that Whis still calls back to that line when Gogeta shows up, citing their Fusion as them working together.

Like I said, it's not necessarily anything specific, just that Goku and Vegeta working together in some fashion is greater than anything they could achieve individually and would be a problem to even Gods of Destruction like Beerus.

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 3745
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Mar 29, 2023 7:26 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 6:25 pm
Miracles wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 6:10 pm The authorial intent was showing how wrong Whis was about Goku and Vegeta being able to team up against Beerus. Since in the very next movie [DBS: Broly] they couldn't even go toe-to-toe despite teaming up against Broly who was supposedly above Beerus.
I’m not following this line of thought, since there is nothing in the movie implying Whis is wrong, as well as there is nothing implying SSG Goku having 60% of Beerus’ strength is a lie. Seems very clear to me that Toriyama just changed his mind and he doesn’t follow what he wrote on those movies anymore.
Oh I know the general position about Beerus. When we look at the text, showing Toriyama using words like "suppose," "if," "seem," "guess," he never really had his mind made up in the first place. Changes can be allowed and not be a contradiction.

Now I know in the past I agreed that his interview [6/10/15] was not supposition but after really looking at the totality of work it actually is.

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 7:17 pm Not to mention that Whis still calls back to that line when Gogeta shows up, citing their Fusion as them working together.

Like I said, it's not necessarily anything specific, just that Goku and Vegeta working together in some fashion is greater than anything they could achieve individually and would be a problem to even Gods of Destruction like Beerus.
Agreed. It was more of a general statement showing that if Goku and Vegeta can work together they would benefit more.

User avatar
QuakingStar
Regular
Posts: 509
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:18 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by QuakingStar » Wed Mar 29, 2023 7:40 pm

SSG was the largest jump in power at the time because there was no other new forms in Toriyama's story. SSG's scale of power was at its greatest in BoG, after that it wasn't treated to be at that powerful anymore, though it still shits on SS3. Base fusion, BOTH kinds handily surpass SSGod. We see this with Kefla and Gogeta.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 4632
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Mar 29, 2023 11:31 pm

Miracles wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 7:26 pm Oh I know the general position about Beerus. When we look at the text, showing Toriyama using words like "suppose," "if," "seem," "guess," he never really had his mind made up in the first place. Changes can be allowed and not be a contradiction.

Now I know in the past I agreed that his interview [6/10/15] was not supposition but after really looking at the totality of work it actually is.
I doubt Toriyama is purposely letting loose ends in his battle power implications.

In the panorama he drew, Goku (6) would merely need to double his strength or have a partner as strong as himself to surpass Beerus (10). This is perfectly aligned with what Whis told, that Beerus used 70% of his strength (7) to maintain his advantage against Goku (6).

Whatever he wrote after this point is not supposed to change the original intent, supersede it or vice-versa. I acknowledge that Toriyama can and sometimes contradicts himself, and that’s okay, he is not infallible. And this silly battle power implication is only an example of it, you don’t need to overanalyze evidentiality markers that Toriyama put in his sentences.

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 7:17 pm Not to mention that Whis still calls back to that line when Gogeta shows up, citing their Fusion as them working together.

Like I said, it's not necessarily anything specific, just that Goku and Vegeta working together in some fashion is greater than anything they could achieve individually and would be a problem to even Gods of Destruction like Beerus.
Just to clarify my position. I think it’s well known there is precedence in Dragon Ball history of far distinct performance between two people fighting together and them fighting as one being (Goku and Vegeta vs. Majin Boo etc). In Ressurrection of Freeza, 1) there isn’t a single reference to fusion; and 2) the last time Goku was compared to Beerus, he had more than half of his strength (at least, this was the general consensus between 2013~2015). So, I don’t think it’s reasonable to assume it would require a fusion of Goku and Vegeta, in that context, to take on Beerus. Merely adding a equally powerful partner to SSG Goku (6) would give Beerus (10) a run for his money, imagine them using a stronger form. Looking back in retrospect, anyone would say SSB Gogeta = Beerus would be an absurd interpretation.

Now, if Toriyama in 2018 says SSB Gogeta = Beerus as if this was originally intended in 2015, then we can theoretically revisit any battle power implication that he wrote before and stick with whatever we want (like my friend above is doing).

User avatar
Skar
I Live Here
Posts: 2206
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:04 pm
Location: US

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:52 am

At the time of RoF, Whis saying Goku and Vegeta fighting together could defeat Beerus works since SSJG pushed Beerus to use 70%. Both statements weren't included in DBS which is what Broly was using. I think that makes more sense than arguing Whis was wrong about Beerus' power. I can understand Goku or Shin haven't seen Beerus at full power so the statements about Broly and Vegetto could be off but Whis has been training Beerus for millions of years. If Whis doesn't know how strong Beerus is then we're assuming Beerus held back his entire life just for the sake of keeping his power a mystery to everyone in the multiverse including his teacher.

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 3745
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Mar 30, 2023 3:20 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 11:31 pm
Miracles wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 7:26 pm Oh I know the general position about Beerus. When we look at the text, showing Toriyama using words like "suppose," "if," "seem," "guess," he never really had his mind made up in the first place. Changes can be allowed and not be a contradiction.

Now I know in the past I agreed that his interview [6/10/15] was not supposition but after really looking at the totality of work it actually is.
I doubt Toriyama is purposely letting loose ends in his battle power implications.

In the panorama he drew, Goku (6) would merely need to double his strength or have a partner as strong as himself to surpass Beerus (10). This is perfectly aligned with what Whis told, that Beerus used 70% of his strength (7) to maintain his advantage against Goku (6).

Whatever he wrote after this point is not supposed to change the original intent, supersede it or vice-versa. I acknowledge that Toriyama can and sometimes contradicts himself, and that’s okay, he is not infallible. And this silly battle power implication is only an example of it, you don’t need to overanalyze evidentiality markers that Toriyama put in his sentences.
Whis said that if Goku and Vegeta worked together they only "seem" like they could go "toe-to-toe" against Beerus. Not even sure if two Super Saiyan Blue's could beat him. Evident what Toriyama wrote before about SSJG [6] compared to Beerus [10] back in BoG as supposition. If he can't straight out say two Blue's could beat him only able to go head up with him.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 4632
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Mar 30, 2023 10:22 am

Miracles wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 3:20 amWhis said that if Goku and Vegeta worked together they only "seem" like they could go "toe-to-toe" against Beerus. Not even sure if two Super Saiyan Blue's could beat him.
If I say A seems to match B, then my assessment is that a fight between them is inconclusive for both sides, implying they are close to each other. I wouldn’t even say my students “seem” to be able to do something if I didn’t have an idea of how difficult the task is.

Evident what Toriyama wrote before about SSJG [6] compared to Beerus [10] back in BoG as supposition. If he can't straight out say two Blue's could beat him only able to go head up with him.
I don’t know if you were in Kanzenshuu that time, but I recall many of us thought Super Saiyan Blue was weaker or as strong as Super Saiyan God because of that.

User avatar
Koitsukai
I Live Here
Posts: 4276
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Mar 30, 2023 10:55 am

By now, we know not even the duo using their Ultra forms would be able to fight Beerus, so yeah, Whis was so off the mark that if it wasn't a retcon, then Whis as a sensei is just as clueless as Gowasu.

I'd rather go with the former than assume Whis is on Señor Chang's level of teachery.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 4632
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Mar 30, 2023 1:10 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 10:55 am By now, we know not even the duo using their Ultra forms would be able to fight Beerus, so yeah, Whis was so off the mark that if it wasn't a retcon, then Whis as a sensei is just as clueless as Gowasu.

I'd rather go with the former than assume Whis is on Señor Chang's level of teachery.
A retcon is exactly that, a new interpretation to accommodate some aspects in sequels (Dragon Ball Super Broly) and other derivative works (Dragon Ball Super Tv anime and manga) that would not be plausible with the rules established in the original narrative (DBZ Battle of Gods and DBZ Ressurrection of Freeza). In this case that two Super Saiyan Blue working together are seemingly on equal foot with Beerus or that Super Saiyan God has 60% of Beerus’ battle power.

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 3745
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Mar 30, 2023 3:51 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 10:22 am
Miracles wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 3:20 amWhis said that if Goku and Vegeta worked together they only "seem" like they could go "toe-to-toe" against Beerus. Not even sure if two Super Saiyan Blue's could beat him.
If I say A seems to match B, then my assessment is that a fight between them is inconclusive for both sides, implying they are close to each other. I wouldn’t even say my students “seem” to be able to do something if I didn’t have an idea of how difficult the task is.
That's the thing, implication is not fact. Hence why Beerus told Whis nobody asked him what he "thinks." As we can see Toriyama keeps himself safe with language. Always having doubt when it comes to Beerus's power. Toriyama never definitively set Beerus in a tier of power therefore not a retcon.
I don’t know if you were in Kanzenshuu that time, but I recall many of us thought Super Saiyan Blue was weaker or as strong as Super Saiyan God because of that.
I see. Well we all know that is not the case. As there is a huge gap between Blue and Red.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 4632
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Mar 30, 2023 5:32 pm

Miracles wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 3:51 pm That's the thing, implication is not fact. Hence why Beerus told Whis nobody asked him what he "thinks." As we can see Toriyama keeps himself safe with language. Always having doubt when it comes to Beerus's power. Toriyama never definitively set Beerus in a tier of power therefore not a retcon.
You are going on circles here with the mental gymnastics. Beerus reaction tells us he knows what Whis claims is correct, which is what annoys him. He doesn’t like the idea of having other people challenging his position. It has nothing to do with him disagreeing with Whis. And we know that Toriyama presented the idea of how Beerus compares to Goku in his Battle of Gods interview. Beerus being a “moving goalpost” isn’t a meme for nothing.

Kaboom summarized this perfectly.

Post Reply