Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

Hedo and Toriyama are in sync. Hedo said Cell is nearly complete. Which means he wasn't finished.

[ZombieVito]

I think this is my definitive movie-verse scale. It was going to be a tier list, but I think numbers are easier to read and to get the point across. Tier lists always have a bunch of names jumbled together, and numbers are fine if you cut the zeroes. Explanations and speculations also inside the spoiler.

It's a bit surprising how consistent the movies are, even on stuff as confusing as Base Goku's power. The animanga-only sagas are mere speculation based on Toriyama's notes and what's more remarkable and makes the most sense (Since being more memorable means it's more likely for AT to remember).

Spoiler:

Battle of Gods

Goku: 1
~ SSJ: 50
~ SSJ2: 100
~ SSJ3: 400

SSJ Gotenks: 40
Ultimate Gohan: 400
SSJ2 Vegeta (Enraged): 1,000

Vegeta thinks nobody can stop Beerus since he beat Goku, and Vegeta was the only one who could hold his own with Beerus even before rage.

SSJG Goku (80%): 80,000

Goku (Post SSJG): 4,000
~ SSJ: 20,000
~ SSJG: 100,000

Beerus ("70%", actually 2%): 125,000

Everything here is self explanatory. The original movie didn't say Goku absorbed all of SSJG's power, only some of it, but he still needed SSJG in order to nullify Beerus's attack.

Revival of Freeza

Goku/Vegeta: 4,000
~ SSJB: 200,000

Freeza: 3,500
~ Golden form: 250,000

This movie sort of suggests SSJG became base and SSJB because SSJ, but the intent was stronger in AT's interviews at the time and in hindsight it's clearly not the case.

Serialized sagas

Piccolo: 4,000
Frost (4th form): 12,000

Magetta: 20,000

Cabba: 4,000
~ SSJ: 20,000

Hit: 150,000

Other than maybe Piccolo (Whose power IMO is like 17's: AT just felt like making him strong after making him Zarbon-level in M15), everyone here is self explanatory. Hit is in the middle spot between SSJG and SSJB, but we know for a fact he's behind Blue since it's in both anime and manga.

SSJ2 Goku: 25,000
~ SSJ3: 50,000

SSJ2 Future Trunks: 25,000
~ SSJ Rage: 225,000(?)

Goku uses SSJ2 and 3 in both manga and anime so it must be in Toriyama's notes. But it's just to show them to Trunks, but they don't give the same boost anymore. Black being SSJ3 and Trunks being SSJ2 (He's only SSJ3 in the anime with the new boost) is also in both versions.
If Super Hero shows half bloods can get new forms via anger, then why not give Trunks one? However, as memorable as it is, this form wasn't Toriyama's idea, so I'll leave a question mark to show this is merely hypothetical.


Goku Black: 56,250
~ SSJR: 225,000

Future Zamasu: 20,000

I'm not sure how exactly Black is stronger than Goku. Maybe it's because he's from 1 year later? Zamasu is weaker than Trunks in both versions, so it must have been in Toriyama's script. Black getting Zenkais is also Toriyama's idea, but we don't have enough information to list that or Black's golden SSJ form (which seems to have just been a suggestion since the anime skips it).

Goku/Vegeta (Post training): 5,000
~ SSJB: 250,000

Vegeta going to the Rosat and beating Goku Black is in both versions. The manga gives a fancier explanation, but movie SSJB is not meant to have crippling stamina.

Merged Zamasu: 300,000

Vegetto: 300,000
~ SSJB: 15,000,000

In the original script Merged Zamasu is just strong enough that he can stop SSJBs individually, but not together. The anime kept a bit of this by having the Saiyans team up and wear him down. Vegetto wasn't Toriyama's idea but both Toei and Toyotaro talked him into allowing it, so it's canon.

Android 17: 200,000
Ultimate Gohan: 200,000
Golden Freeza: 250,000

Both are Blue level in anime and manga, but slightly behind the peak SSJBs. Freeza is said to have been training, meaning AT does acknowledge Goku and Vegeta surpassing RoF Golden Freeza. But for simplicity's sake, I'll assume he just focused on his stamina issues.

Caulifla: 5,000
~ SSJ: 25,000

Kale: 10,000
~ SSJ: 50,000
~ LSSJ: 200,000

Kefla: 40,000 ~ 50,000
~ SSJ: 200,000 ~ 250,000

The girls (and the ToP as a whole) are a bit confusing since the ToP was a full team effort between Toriyama, Toyotaro and Toei. But Kale does make Goku go Blue in both versions, and SSJ Kefla is Blue tier in both versions.

Dyspo: 100,000
Toppo: 250,000

Toppo is easy, but Dyspo is a complete speculation since his power wildly varies on both versions. His just-behind-Blue super speed is only explicitly brought up in the anime, but strongly suggested in the manga. Hakaishin Toppo is not canon since SSJBE Vegeta doesn't exist in the movies.

Jiren: 6,000,000

UI Goku (Sign): 2,500,000
~ Complete: 6,250,000

Sign was not Toriyama's creation, but was still incorporated into the story by the writers.

Broly

Goku/Vegeta: 5,000
~ SSJ: 25,000
~ SSJG: 125,000
~ SSJB: 250,000

Base --> SSJ --> SSJG --> SSJB is actually the natural evolution looking at BoGs. RoF may go with just Base --> SSJB, but in context it's clear Goku and Vegeta just meant business and skipped the middle forms.

Broly: 25,000
~ Ikari: 250,000
~ SSJ: 1,250,000
~ LSSJ: 6,250,000

The SSJ multipliers are all based around Broly: Fights SSJ in base, but overwhelms God and keeps with Blue by going Oozaru. Possibly stronger than Beerus as a LSSJ and made Gogeta skip God straight to Blue.

Gogeta: 250,000
~ SSJ: 1,250,000
~ SSJB: 12,500,000

Super Hero

Piccolo: 5,400
~ Ultimate form: 180,000
~ Orange form: 900,000

Not exactly on pair with Goku as much as far surpassing him, but still reached his league in the movie after years on base level.

Gohan: 4,000
~ SSJ: 20,000
~ Ultimate: 200,000
~ Beast: 5,000,000

Gamma 1&2: 200,000 each

Cell MAX (Incomplete): 2,000,000
~ Complete: 8,000,000?

Toriyama falls into contradiction with the movie and his notes: Hedo says Cell was complete, but Toriyama says he wasn't. I'll take Toriyama's word: Being complete could just mean his basic structure, not his full power. Like a premature birth.

Shisami isn't Zarbon level in Toriyama's script. Toei screwed up lol.

Isn't Gohan said to be the strongest with Beast? Also I feel Cell Max and Beast Gohan should be a lot closer since it is said that without Gamma 2's sacrifice they would have died.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Hedo and Toriyama are in sync. Hedo said Cell is nearly complete. Which means he wasn't finished.

Maybe. He could also be "almost" complete because he's not complete without the mind control, even though his body and power are.

Shisami isn't Zarbon level in Toriyama's script. Toei screwed up lol.

Isn't Gohan said to be the strongest with Beast? Also I feel Cell Max and Beast Gohan should be a lot closer since it is said that without Gamma 2's sacrifice they would have died.

Perhaps. The script we have online was just a memo, but he's still credited with writing everything (Unlike how Super either co-credits him in the manga or just credits him as "original author" in the anime) and said he'd be "fussing over the smallest dialogue lines".

Piccolo said Gohan would be the strongest "In this world", so not necessarily. His original plan was to eat the senzu himself, but he changed his and gave it to Gohan after Gamma's kamikaze attack. I guess the implication is that Gohan would've died or wouldn't have the stamina to turn beast? Although being tired didn't stop Gohan in the Cell Games, or Goku on Namek... But these new forms always have stamina problems so who knows. A bit outside that topic, but Piccolo giving his senzu to Gohan also means Cell Max (Weakened) >>> Orange Piccolo (Full power).

[shadd21]

Are Beast Gohan, and Orange Piccolo relative to TUI Goku, and UE Vegeta?

[Miracles]

Hedo and Toriyama are in sync. Hedo said Cell is nearly complete. Which means he wasn't finished.

Maybe. He could also be "almost" complete because he's not complete without the mind control, even though his body and power are.

Spoiler:

If we pay attention to context. Hedo tells Magenta that Cell Max is "nearly complete." That Cell Max "himself" is finished but more time for his mind control program is needed.

So Cell Max "himself [Body/Form]" was finished but not the other part of the program, mind control. This all encompasses the "nearly complete" statement from Hedo.


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[picc]

Are Beast Gohan, and Orange Piccolo relative to TUI Goku, and UE Vegeta?

We'll find out in about 8 months.

[ZombieVito]

Perhaps. The script we have online was just a memo, but he's still credited with writing everything (Unlike how Super either co-credits him in the manga or just credits him as "original author" in the anime) and said he'd be "fussing over the smallest dialogue lines".

Piccolo said Gohan would be the strongest "In this world", so not necessarily. His original plan was to eat the senzu himself, but he changed his and gave it to Gohan after Gamma's kamikaze attack. I guess the implication is that Gohan would've died or wouldn't have the stamina to turn beast? Although being tired didn't stop Gohan in the Cell Games, or Goku on Namek... But these new forms always have stamina problems so who knows. A bit outside that topic, but Piccolo giving his senzu to Gohan also means Cell Max (Weakened) >>> Orange Piccolo (Full power).

Well, who knows. Toriyama's script only mentions Shisami on Earth and even calls him the strongest in Freeza's army after saying Freeza hired powerful mercs to fill up the ranks. It's clear to me he was never meant to be compared to Zarbon and Dodoria.

Yes, Piccolo giving Gohan the senzu means he's weaker than weakened Cell Max but I wouldn't put him that low. Toriyama did say he was finally on par with Goku so he must not be leagues below UI Goku. Also, his "In this world" can easily mean universe 7. It would make his conversation with Pan about Gohan being stronger than Goku at the beginning of the film come full circle.

[shadd21]

Are Beast Gohan, and Orange Piccolo relative to TUI Goku, and UE Vegeta?

We'll find out in about 8 months.

What's happening in 8 months?

[Hugo Boss]

Are Beast Gohan, and Orange Piccolo relative to TUI Goku, and UE Vegeta?

We'll find out in about 8 months.

What's happening in 8 months?

Probably new Dragon Ball Super manga chapters with some power hierarchy statements or implications.

[Xeogran]

We'll find out in about 8 months.

What's happening in 8 months?

Probably new Dragon Ball Super manga chapters with some power hierarchy statements or implications.

Thankfully the pace seems to be faster, so it's probably just in 3 or 4 months we see Beast.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Are Beast Gohan, and Orange Piccolo relative to TUI Goku, and UE Vegeta?

Going with the basic plot of the film and Toriyama's notes, Gohan > Cell > TUI Goku = UE Vegeta = Piccolo. Cell is probably going to be Gas level, and Gohan will be Freeza level. Piccolo might be a bit behind Goku and Vegeta, but I'd say he's Silver UI level at least.

Well, who knows. Toriyama's script only mentions Shisami on Earth and even calls him the strongest in Freeza's army after saying Freeza hired powerful mercs to fill up the ranks. It's clear to me he was never meant to be compared to Zarbon and Dodoria.

Yes, Piccolo giving Gohan the senzu means he's weaker than weakened Cell Max but I wouldn't put him that low. Toriyama did say he was finally on par with Goku so he must not be leagues below UI Goku. Also, his "In this world" can easily mean universe 7. It would make his conversation with Pan about Gohan being stronger than Goku at the beginning of the film come full circle.

My logic here is mostly to work from what was in the movies. Even if Toriyama didn't write it, it was still an idea that went through him and got into the movie, like how Broly going SSJFP was added later. If it was just the bare bone ideas, then Shisami wouldn't even exist lol.

Regardless, someone is supposed to give Piccolo a fight in the movie. That shows characters can get big power ups off screen, as it's always been the case.

Movie Goku doesn't even have UI and is still running after Jiren of all people, so I wouldn't make that comparison. Broly being the measure stick for Complete Cell MAX makes it sound like he was stronger.

[Hugo Boss]

What's happening in 8 months?

Probably new Dragon Ball Super manga chapters with some power hierarchy statements or implications.

Thankfully the pace seems to be faster, so it's probably just in 3 or 4 months we see Beast.

Wow, Goku vs. Broly next month. We might have answers a lot sooner than I anticipated.

[ZombieVito]

Movie Goku doesn't even have UI and is still running after Jiren of all people, so I wouldn't make that comparison. Broly being the measure stick for Complete Cell MAX makes it sound like he was stronger.

Citation needed.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Citation needed.

The line about him and Vegeta having to catch up to Broly and Jiren + Goku is afraid of fighting Broly all out.

[ZombieVito]

Citation needed.

The line about him and Vegeta having to catch up to Broly and Jiren + Goku is afraid of fighting Broly all out.

Nothing about that means he doesn't have it. Jiren and Broly are simply stronger now.

Hell, nothing in the Broly movie contradicts Broly > UI Goku.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Nothing about that means he doesn't have it. Jiren and Broly are simply stronger now.

Hell, nothing in the Broly movie contradicts Broly > UI Goku.

But outside of the manga, which Toriyama didn't even seem to have in mind, what even suggests he has it? He didn't have it in the last movie and he doesn't seem any different now. Hell he's probably as far as ever if he won't even meditate.

But yeah, come to think of it Broly is probably > UI Goku in his own movie.

[Mr Baggins]

One thing this month's chapter has proven: Toyotaro clearly isn't trying to branch away from the movie's continuity at all. Everything is beat-for-beat the exact same as the film, right down to Piccolo's identical dialogue about the Gammas' power.

However, it is expanding on what's already there (going so far as to include cut scenes), and Goku did imply that Broly is still just learning the basics as a martial artist. So I can see his raw power being above Beerus's while still being beneath the overall fighting capability of Moro, Granolah, Beerus, etc.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

One thing this month's chapter has proven: Toyotaro clearly isn't trying to branch away from the movie's continuity at all. Everything is beat-for-beat the exact same as the film, right down to Piccolo's identical dialogue about the Gammas' power.

However, it is expanding on what's already there (going so far as to include cut scenes), and Goku did imply that Broly is still just learning the basics as a martial artist. So I can see his raw power being above Beerus's while still being beneath the overall fighting capability of Moro, Granolah, Beerus, etc.

That's what I've been going off of, too.

It doesn't always need to be constant and extremely overt power escalation. We can have plenty of opponents hitting the same general range that was started by Jiren and Broly without needing to have them all be way way stronger than the last.

[QuakingStar]

Broly always trains regardless, he trained on Vampa for about 40 years, then after he is sent back due to the wish I guarantee he trained some more. So 2-3 years later of course he would be even stronger than when Goku and Vegeta saw him last and we don't know what his training methods are. Jiren also trains like a madman, his training alone got him to the level he was at and Whis noted that Jiren's potential is still immeasurable, showing a remarkable growth rate as the more he struggles, the more he adapts and grows. So in the current time I would bet Jiren yet again is on an entirely different level. Jiren is basically Superman and Batman got combined and turned into a Dragon Ball character so him yet again being a wall of monstrous power would make sense considering this supposed immeasurable potential.

[ZombieVito]

Nothing about that means he doesn't have it. Jiren and Broly are simply stronger now.

Hell, nothing in the Broly movie contradicts Broly > UI Goku.

But outside of the manga, which Toriyama didn't even seem to have in mind, what even suggests he has it? He didn't have it in the last movie and he doesn't seem any different now. Hell he's probably as far as ever if he won't even meditate.

But yeah, come to think of it Broly is probably > UI Goku in his own movie.

Toriyama did the draft for Granolah.